Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Today is a big day for New York City families with kids in 8th grade. This is the day that many of them are finding out the results of their high school applications. This is a big moment for New York City parents with kids too young to even go to school yet, because Mayor Adams is proposing cuts to the signature accomplishment of his predecessor, Bill de Blasio, the creation of a universal pre-K system for four-year-olds, and the start of universal 3K for the year before that. This could even have implications for Mayor Adams's re-election next year. WNYC Education reporter Jessica Gould has been reporting on this political battle and personal uncertainty and joins us now. Hi, Jess. Welcome back to the show.

Jessica Gould: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: As a starting point, how universal has universal pre-K become?

Jessica Gould: When you talk about this a lot, there's pre-K, which is 4k and then 3K. 4k has been generally universal. That was a de Blasio initiative. They reached that goal, meaning that pretty much everybody who wants to see can have one, with the exception of, and advocates are very careful to point this out. There have never been enough special education preschool seats for students with disabilities, so they have been underserved. Overall, that was a goal under de Blasio, and that was seen as a milestone that was reached. Then they were in the process of trying to get to the same place with 3K.

They had created a situation where they said that in half of the city school districts, there was a seat for every kid who wanted one in 3K. The problem is, and they wanted to get to all school districts, just like universal pre-K for four-year-olds, but they planned that based on a lot of federal stimulus funds, and that money is drying up. On top of that, Mayor Adams has proposed significant cuts to pre-K and-- or to 3K, in particular, to early childhood education. There's $170 million in cuts that early childhood education is facing from the November and January budgets.

Brian Lehrer: The de Blasio concept was and we remember he got elected in 2013 as the inequality mayor. That's what he was running on, fight inequality in New York City. The concept was that this program would reduce inequality in two ways. One, it would be easier for low-income parents to work outside the home and earn a living if the city is providing coverage for their three and four-year-olds, and preschool is important for those same families because families with higher incomes were ready giving their kids that head start. That's the second reason. Research shows those years matter a lot to the ultimate educational outcome of the kids once they get to high school. Pre-K actually equals better outcomes later on. More equality of income now for the working parents, more prospects for equality of income later for the next generation. Does Mayor Adams reject or question those premises?

Jessica Gould: No, I don't think so. He's made childcare and made statements about the importance of early childhood education. The education department very recently invited me to come tour one of their sites for 3K, where they were doing some of the early literacy work that they say is foundationally important for the science of reading and their overall effort to overhaul literacy education and boost literacy.

I went there. It was nice to see all the effort they're placing on revamping this, and hopefully, improving this early foundation and literacy, but at the same time, there are these cuts that are coming to early childhood education that they say they're able to move seats around within availability so that people can still get seats if they need it. Most pre-K providers, 3K providers I talked to say they can't make the size of cuts that they're proposing without decreasing access. Here's this foundation that they're investing in, that they are talking about how important it is for their main educational priority literacy, at the same time, they're making cuts that could cause obstacles to access.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip of the mayor on this show last month when a young mother named Stephanie called in to say she's considering moving out of New York City because it didn't look like there would be any slots for her three-year-old in her neighborhood 3K program next school year. The mayor said this.

Mayor Adams: Thank you, Stephanie. First of all, we don't want you to leave the city. A family like yours is who we want here in our city. Here's what happened, Brian, just to give you a brief synopsis. First of all, pre‑k, 3K was on temporary dollars. It was stimulus dollars that the previous administration put in place. Those dollars are sunsetting. We have to find the right funding. In addition to that, we were not paying for bodies in seats, we were just paying for seats of the misalignment of the number of seats that were needed in a particular community left open.

Brian Lehrer: The mayor here last month. Jess, the caller has plenty of company in their dilemma over whether to even stay in the city. You report that New Yorkers with children under the age of six move out of the city and more than twice the rate of those without young children, according to a soon to be released analysis. Or maybe it just came out now from the Fiscal Policy Institute think tank. Any way to know if that's because of availability of pre-K and 3K rather than other reasons like maybe what they perceive as the quality of the schools?

Jessica Gould: I think it's a combination of the cost of living in New York City, which the cost of childcare is a huge component. Also, concerns about the school system. We know that prior to the influx of migrants, we were losing a lot of enrollment within the city's public schools. Some of that has to do with changing demographics and birth rates, but in some cases, it's voting with your feet. I think it's really a combination.

Brian Lehrer: Can you explain some of what the mayor was describing or claiming there in the response to the caller in the clip if it sounded bureaucratic to listeners?

Jessica Gould: Yes. He's been saying for a long time now that there was a mismatch under the de Blasio administration between the placement of seats where they were for pre-K and 3K and the demand. They've been saying that they can save money by reallocating those seats, redistributing them so that the seats themselves match up with where the demand is. They say that they can get rid of more than 10,000 vacant seats, which would mean saving money while still serving the need that's out there. People who are applying for these programs are concerned about that. Some have been told that they won't be able to get a seat in their neighborhood. We'll have to see when the offers come out, but that's the concern.

Brian Lehrer: You reported that as of December in the current school year, 10,000 3K and 15,000 pre-K seats remain vacant. You were just talking about some of that churn. If that's the case, why wouldn't there be enough slots for families who want them next year, even with whatever the mayor is planning to do?

Jessica Gould: That's what the administration argues. I got a statement from an Education Department spokesperson that said, "We will maintain all seats for which there's a need, and we will work to continue to right-size the number of seats."

Brian Lehrer: You reported that among the areas utilizing the programs the least, the lower Eastside, East Village, in Harlem, in Manhattan, and also parts of the Bronx, in some cases overlapping with neighborhoods that Adams won in the 2021 mayor's race. As of now, every district has some empty seats, you said. What's that about? Are some eligible families not choosing to enroll for some reason?

Jessica Gould: What I'm hearing is that, first of all, school day seats for any parent who sends their kid to school, that only covers some of the time that you need to work. It goes until half the day is done, and then you need to find something else. Some parents are not choosing that as an option because of that lack of childcare in the afternoon hours. City Council members who hammer the mayor about the need for more seats, talk about the need for full-day early childhood seats. Then the other thing is that there's a criticism that this administration has pulled back from doing the outreach to communities to let them know about this option.

Brian Lehrer: You report that progressive activists to the left of Mayor Adams now see 3K and pre-K funding as a potential issue to use against the mayor when he presumably runs for reelection next year. What's the political framing of that as a criticism of him that could be used in a campaign?

Jessica Gould: I think it's exactly what you said at the beginning, which is that it's an inequality issue, and it is what could help keep families here to have their kids in these programs. There's this new group called New Yorkers United for Child Care, which is seeking to mobilize the parent constituency. I think we've seen efforts to make parents a more muscular political group across the country. This could be how it would happen here in New York. Also, for quite some time, city council members have been hammering the mayor for the rolling back of early childhood education, pre-K, 3-K. It's a winning issue politically for the council members, and I think, in general, that people want somewhere to put their kids, where they will be safe and educated.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. Did the opponents of Adams say where the money would come from for the genuinely universal program that they support?

Jessica Gould: That's a good question. I haven't watched all the budget hearings yet, so I'll make sure to ask them that when it comes up.

Brian Lehrer: Just briefly before you go, on the high school admission notices going out today, that application system, and not just for the so-called specialized high schools, which are always in the news, but for the system citywide, that system is considered highly stressful and opaque. Any reforms to that on anybody's radar as a priority?

Jessica Gould: The reforms to admissions in general have not been top priority or even a priority for this administration. Those were such heated battles during the de Blasio days, about trying to make the specialized schools and even selective high school and middle school admissions more equitable. It's not in the debate right now in the way that it was just a few years ago. There's some efforts to make high school admissions more equitable by giving priority to disadvantaged groups, but it's still this really high stakes process, where you rank 12 choices for 700 programs and you get a lottery number. Different schools have some different criteria, much the same as applying to college. It's still a messy, complicated situation with a lot of stress for families.

Brian Lehrer: If we have universal 3-K and pre-K rising as an anti-inequality measure, anybody advocating universal test prep?

Jessica Gould: I haven't heard that lately, but possibly could happen.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC education reporter Jessica Gould. Jess, thanks a lot.

Jessica Gould: Thank you.

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