[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now the final installment of our series on this year's Oscar nominees for best full length documentary. All week if you've been listening, you've heard me talk to the makers of the films. There are five of them. Today we end on a maybe slightly more lighthearted note than with some of the other very serious documentaries we've been talking about with Sara Dosa, the director of Fire of Love. The documentary uses archival footage to tell the story of married volcanologists, that means they study volcanoes, Maurice and Katia Krafft, who produced their own nature documentaries and books about volcanoes during the 70s and 80s. Sara, thanks for coming on. Congratulations on your Oscar nomination.

Sara Dosa: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I know it's a little weird maybe that I'm calling it lighthearted because right from the beginning of the movie, it's clear that it ends in tragedy. This is not a spoiler. Maurice and Katia died in a volcanic eruption in Japan in 1991. Yet the way you tell the story, it becomes something beautiful as well as tragic, more than tragic. I'm going to start by playing a clip from the beginning of the film where Miranda July, an independent filmmaker, artist and writer in her own right, who narrates the film, sets up the story you're about to tell. This is 30 seconds.

Miranda July: This is Katia and this is Maurice. It's 1991, June 2nd, tomorrow will be their last day. They will leave behind samples, words, hundreds of hours of footage, thousands of photos, and a million questions.

Brian Lehrer: That from the opening of the documentary Fire of Love. Sara, with the amount of scientific work the Krafft did and with the way they died, there are so many ways you could have told the story about them and their work. Why tell it as a love story?

Sara Dosa: Yes, you're absolutely right. There's many different directions we could have gone with Fire of Love, but for us, we wanted to be guided by Katia and Maurice first and foremost. That was very challenging since they did pass away 32 years ago, but we were so inspired to look deeply into their materials and do research through interviewing their loved ones, collaborators, people who knew them to really find out the best way to tell the story.

Love kept coming up as the driving force, love for each other, as this married pair, but this absolute passion for volcanoes. That was really embodied in a sentence in a book that Maurice wrote where he said, "For me, Katia and volcanoes, it is a love story." That sentence actually appears at the end of the film now, but for us, it was really a genesis point. We realized we wanted to tell not just a love story, but really a love triangle story between these two humans and this elemental force that are volcanoes.

Brian Lehrer: Well, why did they fall in love with something as terrifying as hot lava and clouds of ash?

Sara Dosa: [chuckles] That's a great question. There's many reasons, but both Katia and Maurice grew up in post-war France. Katia actually was born during World War II and Maurice just afterwards. As they were growing up, they each respectively felt a sense of disillusionment with humanity. They each came to this conclusion that humans destroyed what they created. They had this idealized romantic view of volcanoes as being this source of creation. Both of them had early experiences where they saw the allure and the power of volcanoes. Katia first through the films of Haroun Tazieff, a French filmmaker who's often likened to the Jacques Cousteau of volcanoes.

Then when she was a teenager she visited Italy's volcanoes. Maurice too, as a child, he got to see Stromboli erupt as a six-year-old. These early moments ignited, excuse the pun, I bump into the volcano puns all the time, but it very much lit a passion for both of them, introducing them to a world and a set of forces that they'd never seen before that transported them out of the ravages of post-war France and into this new realm. The more they learned about it, the more they delved into the allure of the mystery about how our planet works.

Brian Lehrer: You said love triangle a minute ago. Were you just being cute or was there any jealousy between them about either's relationship with volcanoes?

Sara Dosa: There actually was jealousy there, which was something that was really fun for us to find out. At the very beginning of our process, when we read that sentence in the book that Maurice wrote, we thought, "Okay, they're just being playful here." They're very playful people in general, but the more research we did, the more people we interviewed, the more that love triangle concept seemed to be very true. Katia had seen more erupting volcanoes than Maurice. That was a source of tension, but also joking.

They had a very collaborative relationship and a teasingly competitive relationship, but it was a very frequent joke, especially for Maurice. It's one of his talking points to say that Katia is off cheating on him with volcanoes. They used volcano metaphors for describing their relationship all the time.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, did anybody see Fire of Love and want to say anything about it, or ask the filmmaker Sara Dosa a question? Maybe somebody's even listening who knew the Kraffts and you want to call up and talk about them. Who knows? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. I want to say that this is such a visual and sound rich film. It's beautiful to watch. There are these amazing images of the two of them in what almost look like spacesuits standing in front of a wall of fire or leaping over a river of hot lava.

While we're watching these lava flows and explosions, the film is often layering music over the sounds of the volcanoes and narrating in a way that's sometimes playful, sometimes poetic. It takes footage that looks like what you'd expect from maybe a 1970s nature documentary and turns it into something that feels almost surreal or mystical. Especially with the tone of narration that Miranda July is providing. I'm going to play a clip here that illustrates a little bit of that. This is a minute long.

[background noise]

Miranda July: Katia and Maurice are after the strange alchemy of elements, the combination of mineral, heat, gas and time that incites an eruption.

[music]

"What is it," they ask, "that makes the Earth's heart beat? Its blood flow?"

[music]

They study, examine and question. Katia and Maurice begin to learn the secrets of the planet that few others know.

[music]

[background noise]

Understanding is love's other name.

Brian Lehrer: We played that clip largely because of the audio and how it would come across on the radio even without seeing the visuals. Sara, what were you thinking about and what were you hoping to achieve as you chose music and wrote the script?

Sara Dosa: Working with a wonderful team, my editors, Aaron Casper and Jocelyne Chaput and my producer Shane Boras, Ina Fichman, Elijah Stevens. Our whole team, we just delighted in the spectacular visuals that the Kraffts provided. We didn't want to take away by any means from the power of that imagery, but we wanted to match with sounds and with music that could really communicate the whimsy and dreaminess of falling in love. This section that we just heard has a swelling score behind it as we're contextualizing the time that Katia and Maurice really met and they're falling in love with each other.

This exact clip comes in the early years when they're first entering the field and really learning about the secrets of volcanoes together as they're learning about their own relationship. It's a really precarious and exciting moment in any relationship, whether with a human or a volcano. All of those elements we wanted to bring in to set the power of that emotion through this volcanic love language, so to speak.

Brian Lehrer: On the visuals that go with that sound, you used mostly footage that the Kraffts shot themselves for their nature documentaries during the 70s and 80s of volcanoes. What was it like sifting through all of their archival footage?

Sara Dosa: Oh, it was incredible to see their footage truly beguiling and mystifying. I remember the very first set of clips I saw was from an eruption of Mauna Loa in Hawaii in 1984. There are these close up shots of brilliant orange lava. I just kept thinking like, "How alive is this lava?" It felt like it had personhood being, and it was like a monster all so many different things all at once. That's really the view the Kraffts had of volcanoes. They were these sentient forces, so to speak, replete with a life cycle that far extended a human life cycle but nonetheless contains that aliveness and that really was communicated in their every shot.

My team and I, we truly delighted in everything we were seeing. There was not just shots of volcanoes, though, we often came across shots of the life around volcanoes. There was shots of monitor lizards eating dead animals in Indonesia, shots of Katia sitting in an inner tube reading a magazine. There was all these different things that didn't quite add up in our minds, but the questions we had about what these shots were and what their role was in their archive was fascinating for us and opened up this whole idea of the unknown and really searching in an unrequited way actually for the answers that we could never get from Katia and Maurice since they passed away 30 years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a few phone calls from people who've seen the film. Susanna in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Susanna.

Susanna: Hi. Good morning, and thank you, Brian. I'm a longtime listener and great fan. Thank you for all the work you do. I wanted to say that I saw the film and heard [unintelligible 00:11:38] speak. I feel so lucky. In brief, after seeing this film, it heightened my awareness that every time we walk we're walking on fire. That beneath us, no matter where we stand on the earth, there's fire. The second thing is I want to recommend a book by Jelle Zeilinga de Boer who is a colleague of this couple called Volcanoes in Human History. I think your readership and your people who are listening will really enjoy this book. It's for popular consumption, but it's a description of the role that volcanoes have played in human history is really wonderful.

Brian Lehrer: Susanna, thank you.

Susanna: That's it, thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: What an evocative image. You share that every day when we walk on the earth, we're walking on fire on one level. Thank you for that, Tom on Oyster Bay. You're on WNYC. Hi, Tom.

Tom: Hi. I saw the film. I just was scrolling through the tv. It instantly caught my attention, and it's really amazing. It's an amazing story. I never heard of that couple. I find him fascinating. He had this almost sarcastic sense of humor when he would do interviews and stuff. He talked about not liking people, but it seemed like he did like people. I looked up how they knew about they were together when they died and they found the bodies, basically, which was amazing also. It's a great movie. It's wonderful. I loved it.

Brian Lehrer: Tom, thank you very much. Sarah, I'm sure it's wonderful for you to hear Tom's call as well as Susanna's call before it, anything you want to say to either of them?

Sara Dosa: No, I'm very grateful for those kind words. Just to add to what Tom said Katia and Maurice were both wonderfully playful with their humor. Something that we talked about often on the team was this proximity to death, the fact that they were doing such dangerous work and chose to do such dangerous work with volcanoes and almost freed them up from human concerns the day-to-day worries, so to speak.

We often wondered if that allowed them to really just revel in absurdity of all things. They had a very existential philosophy to their work very much how they live their lives. Their humor is very much part of that, and that really translates through. It makes me especially happy when people note their humor here and there and how that's resonating throughout the film for them.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you just joining us, we're talking about the fifth of the five Oscar-nominated documentaries that we've been profiling all this week. It's Fire of Love about the Volcanologists Katia and Maurice Krafft. Our guest is Sara Dosa the filmmaker. You have a lot of fans, your film has a lot of fans. Our board is lighting up with people who seen film and want to ask you about it. I guess people-- some people if they're old enough and watched the right television and stuff, would've known the Kraffts or known about them. Because t

To put them in historical perspective during the 70s and 80s, they came onto the scene as pop scientists, you tell us, producing books and documentaries, but also making the rounds on talk shows and on television. This is like the Jacques [unintelligible 00:15:28] era of nature and oceanography, in his case nature television, in their case, they even wore little red caps like he does, you learn by watching the film, right?

Sara Dosa: Absolutely. They were very much beloved celebrities of sorts, especially in France during the 70s and 80s up until their death in 1991. They were very savvy science communicators, aside from being scientists themselves. They really knew how to tell a good story. That comes through in their cinematography and also in their wardrobe. Their little red hats as well as their silver suits of course had utility out in the field, but they also functioned as costumes.

People were so drawn to them, their way this intrepid lifestyle, and the meaning and adventure that course through their every day that they attracted quite a following. For us as a filmmaking team that was really exciting because they had quite an imprint in the visual and audio archive that we got to pull from. We used their own 16-millimeter footage, but we also got to use what was left in the public record which was extremely useful and also inspiring for us.

Brian Lehrer: I'm told that you've spoken in other interviews about how Maurice was more performative and how Katia faced a lot more sexism and was less likely to go on the press circuit. Can you talk about that distinction?

Sara Dosa: Absolutely. This was something we definitely came across in our research was that cameras tended to focus on Maurice and he was introduced often as here with us today is legendary adventure and endocrinologist, Maurice Krafft and his wife Katia. She was positioned often as an accessory to him, even though she had actually observed and documented more erupting volcanoes than he had.

In that one specific clip that I'm mentioning, you could see Katia's jaw just subtly tightening. I think this is an experience that unfortunately so many women in all kinds of industries have had that kind of devastating and sexist experience. It resonates deeply. That was one of the reasons Katia really did not enjoy public speaking. Maurice was more of a showman and did enjoy it, but Katia would go out into the field much more so because of that.

Brian Lehrer: Such interesting calls coming in with different angles on this when people who have or haven't seen the film, some who are just hearing our conversation, Shelly in the Hudson Valley has something I think unexpected. You're on WNYC, Shelly. Hi

Shelly: Hi there, Brian. I loved the film and the part of it that really spoke to me was that I'm a children's music artist in my character is on a volcanic island off of Iceland. Of course, the movie was completely captivating for me for that reason because of Vulcanology. What really was crazy is that my project is pop electronic. When I heard the music so beautifully juxtaposed with the images of lava and the bubbling and then this 80s, 70s synth pop going with it, which is what my music is like, I was like, there's something about volcanoes that really works well with this type of music and percolation, and I was just completely captivated. Thank you for making the film.

Sara Dosa: Oh, thank you so much for those kind words. We had the great fortune of working with [unintelligible 00:19:08], who is one half of the Eric [unintelligible 00:19:10] a French pop group that was especially famous in the 90s and 2000s. We really wanted our score to feel as retro-futuristic. That was the term we kept coming back to. That was very much inspired by catching versus own aesthetic, this kind of [unintelligible 00:19:28], playful sci-fi b-movie kind of aesthetic. We thought that tonality for music would fit very well into their universe.

Working with Nico [unintelligible 00:19:37] and bringing in other textures from archival music, French pop songs from the 60s and 70s as well we thought that that could create this textured, layered world that felt cohesive with volcanic landscapes. It makes me really happy to hear that resonated with you and the connections you have as well with the film.

Brian Lehrer: Shelly, maybe if you get tired of working with children you'll open up an EDM dance club on top of a volcano somewhere.

[laughter]

Shelly: Sign me up.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Good luck. Elliot in Brooklyn, I think is saying the film personally inspired her to do something even though she has no relationship to Volcanalogy. Elliot, do I have that right? You are on WNYC.

Elliot: Yes, a point that I really took away from it is just how beautiful it was to see two people pursue their passion so fearlessly. I found that to be really inspiring. Like, why do any of us waste our time not pursue? My passion is not being on top of a volcano but even though after watching the movie, I was should it be but [laughs] I didn't look at it as they were attracted to danger in the fire.

It's like this field didn't even, and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Volcanology really was a field before that. I feel they popularized it and they learned so much and added so much along with other scientists, of course, but it was kind of the beginning of our understanding that we currently have a volcanoes and it's terrifying. Especially, when you're seeing the footage in the movie that's shot so beautifully, but there's like acid legs and fire and the dust and dust but they have such a passion and find beauty in all of that, and they just pursue their passions of learning about volcanoes and helping humanity so that there can be less dust. I just found that to be beautiful and inspiring for all of us. Thank you for making the film, It's gorgeous.

Brian Lehrer: Does it inspire you to want to do anything in particular?

Elliot: I am also a musician and to me it's like don't hold back. Be more brave and do it. Pursue your passion fearlessly. Anyway, thank you Sara. [unintelligible 00:22:06]

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. One more, Sharon in Scarsdale who did not see the film. Sharon, you're on WNYC, hello.

Sharon: Hi. It's a pleasure to be on. I just absolutely love your show. I just wanted to say we were in Hawaii during the-- it was a dual eruption, I think with [unintelligible 00:22:25] and the travel agent we got there and they said, "Get in the car and drive to this Pacific place." We saw the lava flow going into the ocean, which means we saw land [laughs] being created, which was extraordinary.

The whole experience, we learned later that people wait for years to go and see the volcano. The only thing I would add to this is the-- I understand a love story. I look forward to seeing this movie. There's clearly a connection among many, many, many people about the importance and centrality of these volcanoes. I think it connects us to really the origin of our earth and our land in ways that no other phenomenon can. Thank you so much for creating the film and Brian, for featuring this segment.

Brian Lehrer: Sharon, thank you very much. I've had that amazing experience of being a tourist at Volcanoes National Park on the big island of Hawaii and walking over the steam vents, which really changes your understanding of what is below us when you're just walking on the ground and steam is coming up out of little cracks in the earth. Sharon [unintelligible 00:23:51] Well to wrap it up, Sara, where does this fit into your body of work and what would it mean if you won the Oscar?

Sara Dosa: In terms of how this fits into my body of work, first, I just feel I have my dream job working in documentary films. For me as a filmmaker, I'm most interested in the stories that examine the human relationship with non-human nature that can take on an allegorical or mythic dimension which in turn can express the power and the sentience of nature. I'm endlessly inspired by that and how humans make meaning out of it and with nature.

Fire of Love [laughs] is the ultimate culmination of those themes that excite me most. If our film wins an Oscar, I'll be deeply humbled and honored. It'll just feel, particularly exciting to think that people all around the world will get to know Katia and Maurice Krafft's work again. Their imagery travel the globe 30, 40 years ago as they toured with it, trying to teach people about how the planet works.

Really trying to conjure a sense of curiosity about the forces of our earth and so for people to be met with that again is deeply meaningful. Film also is just such a labor of love, the fact that my team and I can celebrate our work together, that's acknowledged it is also deeply meaningful for me and I hope will just allow us all to continue working together, on projects that are meaningful to us, and can center the power of our planet.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Fire of Love is still playing in some theaters and is available to stream on Disney Plus and Hulu, Sara Dosa, you come at the end of a week where we've had all five filmmakers of the Oscar nominated feature-length documentaries. Thank you so much for joining us today to wrap it up and I'll say to you, as I said to all your colleagues, good luck at the Oscars.

Sara Dosa: [laughs] Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be on the show.

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