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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're coming on the one-year anniversary of the first asylum seekers bused to New York by Texas Governor Greg Abbott. The city estimates it's now approaching 100,000 people since then. There is news every day related to the influx. The Roosevelt Hotel intake center in Midtown was so overwhelmed over the weekend that some new arrivals were turned away and presumably slept on the street or in the subways.

Protests took place in two locations in Queens against using facilities for asylum seekers. One for men only. One for families with children according to what I read. Mayor Adams met with White House officials and got a liaison to New York City appointed to help coordinate policy and services here. The Post though ran a headline on Saturday, Biden to City: Drop Dead for Not Doing More. A federal court gave immigrant advocates a win over Biden in court last week, striking down his recent more restrictive entry policy.

Debate continues over Texas Governor Abbott's barrier in a stretch of the Rio Grande intended to keep people from crossing at undesignated locations, but how are the asylum seekers themselves doing and what's the right set of policies going forward for the city and nationally? With me now with advocacy and service provision in his view is Murad Awawdeh, executive director at the New York Immigration Coalition. Hey, Murad, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

[silence]

Brian Lehrer: Do we have Murad?

[silence]

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll open up the phones while we're making sure that Murad's line is connected. First of all, anybody who is one of the 90,000 plus, as-

Murad Awawdeh: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: -estimated by the mayor, asylum seekers, anybody who-

Murad Awawdeh: No, I'm not.

Brian Lehrer: -actually is listening to the show and has found us over this past year who is one of the asylum seekers, we would love to hear from you. Tell us how you are doing. Tell us how people you know are doing. Anyone else with connection to the asylum seekers? The reason I ask this first is that we talk so much about policy. We talk so much about-- By "we," I mean everybody. I mean the whole media, the whole political establishment talks about how the city can accommodate so many people coming all at once.

How many is too many? What kinds of accommodations are required by law to be provided, the impact on other people who need housing in New York, all of those things? Let's also talk about these folks, 100,000 folks almost who each has a life. If you are an asylum seeker or if you work with some of the asylum seekers, maybe you've taken any of the asylum seekers into your home. Maybe you're a relative of one who was here already.

Now, you've got a new housemate or more than one, or anybody who works professionally with asylum seekers. Help us report on how these new New Yorkers are doing. We can also talk about how the city is doing as a result of so many people arriving so quickly. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text us at that number or tweet @BrianLehrer. I think we have Murad Awawdeh, the executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition with us now. Murad, are you there? No? I thought I heard his voice.

Murad Awawdeh: I am here.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, there you are. Okay. Now, we got you. Can you hear me?

Murad Awawdeh: Yes, I hear you good now.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, good. Sorry for whatever that problem was if it was on our end. Explain to everybody. What's this coming one-year anniversary exactly?

[silence]

Murad Awawdeh: Well, I think our line problems are continuing, huh? All right, I'm going to read you a story in the meantime while we fix this. I'm going to go into a little more detail about a couple of things that I mentioned in the introduction to Murad here. Here is a CBS News story from the weekend with the headline, Asylum Seekers Camp Outside Roosevelt Hotel. It identifies the Roosevelt Hotel in Midtown as a Manhattan relief center. It says the relief center is at capacity overnight. I think that would be Saturday night.

"Buses pulled up to the hotel and some asylum seekers were able to spend the night on board," so it's on the bus, "but many waited all day in the heat and rain without knowing what would happen next. Things got contentious Saturday night with asylum seekers pushing to get inside the hotel while a small group of workers tried to manage the crowd. 'They tell us there is no room. There's going to be like, they're all full. We have to wait maybe two weeks, maybe two days. Who knows? They give us the ticket. They said they're going to call us and they didn't.'"

Then the article from CBS says, "Community affairs officers were called in to keep things under control. The line went down the block and around the corner and was moving slowly throughout the day. Men and women napped ate or did whatever they needed to do to pass the time. The Roosevelt Hotel fed asylum seekers and trash was left behind as the hours passed," so that from CBS News about the Roosevelt Hotel situation over the weekend. Murad, maybe now we have you. Hello again.

Murad Awawdeh: Hello, and thank you for having me. Can you hear me good?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you good and well, and I could tell this is already much better. What exactly is this anniversary that's coming up?

Murad Awawdeh: The anniversary that we're quickly approaching on August 5th is when the first bus arrived directly from Texas to New York City. Obviously, people were coming prior to that on their own or being supported and coming to New York, but the direct busing from Texas where the first bus arrived to New York City at Port Authority is this Saturday.

Since then, a year later, we find ourselves still in the same place in a city where we have welcomed immigrants and refugees as well as migrants and asylum seekers for centuries from across the entire world, from Europe to the Middle East, to Asia, the Caribbean, South and Central America, and beyond. To see us still stuck in this emergent mindset as opposed to having really come together and having a better way of moving forward, we still find ourselves struggling to meet the moment.

Brian Lehrer: We'll talk about some of the policy choices for meeting the moment. I don't know if you heard me say while we were trying to get your line connected that I do want to focus some of this anniversary conversation on how the migrants themselves are doing those who've arrived in the city since August 5th of last year. Mayor Adams says it's approaching 100,000. Tell me if you confirm or refute that number. How do we begin to assess the quality of life of the arrivals themselves?

Murad Awawdeh: I think the first assessment piece and what we should be looking at is how we're actually caring for folks, right? When I say "caring," I mean in every regard. The city created a separate shelter system outside of our shelter system to provide recent arrivals with some pseudo form of emergency shelter within the HERC system as well as within respite systems.

For folks who are aware, it really flies in the face of our right-to-shelter laws as well as the basic standards, right? A lot of these places don't have showers or bathrooms. If they do, it's like three or four showers or two bathrooms for hundreds or, if not, a thousand people. We continue to see people struggling to get the basic needs met, right? You were talking earlier about what happened this weekend.

It's been a struggle for people to get intake and processed into getting into a facility. I think for us and what we've seen, this is what the city has also said is that the adults who are in the system, the singles or the adult couples, those folks are actually getting out of the system pretty quickly after 30 to 45 days. The system folks are getting work in the informal economy, renting rooms, or being able to save up enough to rent an apartment, start getting on their own feet.

We have had nearly 100,000 people arrive in New York City. 100,000 is not in the city's care, but what we're seeing is that folks are getting the initial support, and then actually being able to get out very quickly. Unfortunately, we're seeing with the new arrival families, similar to historically unhoused families having a much harder time navigating their way out of the shelter system and into permanent housing.

The real goal here for the city should be that we actually work on not continuing to double and triple down on the emergency shelter system, which has been riddled with issues for decades, by the way. Even more so now, but actually getting people out of the shelter. That should be our number one goal, getting them out of shelter and into permanent housing. That is the real solution that we need to be investing in and focusing on in this moment.

Brian Lehrer: Well, with so many people in the shelter system even before August 5th of last year and not enough permanent housing for everybody who's already here, it's arguably the ongoing number one issue in New York City. We talk about it all the time. Everybody talks about it all the time who follows policy in New York. The housing shortage, the chronic housing shortage. How can you stand up enough new permanent housing in one year's time to accommodate 100,000 people who have just arrived almost all at once in the scheme of things and actually even do that at all?

Murad Awawdeh: Well, it's really prioritizing folks who've been historically unhoused and supporting them in getting out of the system and then making your way down that long list of people who are waiting to get out. There is availability of permanent housing. There is programs that can support people into getting into housing, right? I think that this notion that we don't have housing, I think that we have a very tight housing market, but we do have availability of apartments across New York City that can support people immediately. I think if you look at the CityFHEPS program, we don't have enough agents helping people get into apartments.

Then when they do find an apartment or even they have the voucher in hand, the inspection process of getting the apartment inspected just takes way too long. Then the landlord's holding the apartment for, what, three to six months to get the apartment inspected. They get the inspection. I've been told sometimes people, they fail their inspection because their hot water is 1 degree too hot or 1 degree too cold. What we're seeing is not the lack of availability but, actually, a system that's not operating the way it should to actually get to support the people in getting out of the shelter system.

Brian Lehrer: Would you say that the city's numbers are approximately accurate from where you sit at the New York Immigration Coalition that about half the 100,000 people who've arrived are currently in the shelter system?

Murad Awawdeh: I can't give you a firm answer on that because we don't know. I think, for us, what we do know is that if a great deal of people who came in to New York City were adults and singles and adult couples and we're being told that those are the people who are getting out the quickest within 30 to 45 days, we don't see the influx or the increase of people coming in as we were seeing before, right?

Just this past Saturday, I think two or three buses showed up. There were no buses yesterday. The amount of people who were entering into the system, I think, is varying. I don't think we have the same increase that we were seeing early on from August until the height of December. That's not the same numbers that we're seeing. Yes, there are other people coming from other places outside of Texas, but it's not to the degree that it was when we first started getting the busing.

Whereas multiple buses a day for every single day, that's not what we're seeing these days. I think that the amount of people who are in shelter are the people who are going to be the longest-time stayers like other unhoused communities here in the city are going to be families. How are we setting up families with small children for success in this city if we're not even helping them get out of the shelter system?

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any stats on how many of the 100,000? Of course, some are children. Among the adults in that group, how many are working? I know one of the areas of, I think it's fair to say, agreement between you and Mayor Adams is to try to get a much faster work authorization process going from the federal government, that once they apply for asylum, it takes-- I think it's six months before they can get a work authorization.

The mayor wants that much faster so people can get on their feet. If they do get permanent housing, it's not going to be on the city taxpayer's dime forever and ever or even for a long interim. They want to get work authorization. Of course, a lot of people might also be working but off the books, but do you have a sense of how many of the adults of the 100,000 are working and supporting themselves?

Murad Awawdeh: A great deal of people who have come to New York City over the past year are not in the safe care. Those are folks who have already found ways to support themselves and find their own housing and their own support so that they're able to continue building their lives here. One of the first things we asked this administration to do was actually to expand emergency immigration legal services support last year.

The reason why we were asking for that is that we know how cumbersome and tedious and arcane our immigration system is that people need support in actually navigating it. Had we done the emergency legal services that we needed to do immediately, we would be in a much different place. We would have had people submitting their applications for immigration relief, be it asylum or TPS or other relief that's available to them, and then being able to apply for their EAD work authorization shortly thereafter.

We're in this interesting position where had we done more of the work that the New York Immigration Coalition was advocating for the city to do, we would be in a different place with many more people being able to work in the formal economy. The formal economy is where we want people to be in because there's less likelihood of them being able to be exploited by their employer.

What we're seeing is that the vast majority of people who are working right now are working in the informal economy. That's just potentially harmful to them because they might have their wages stolen or be paid less than minimum wage. For us, it's really making sure that we're able to set people up for success and make sure that they're moving forward. Just to be transparent and clear here, New Yorkers who are in between immigration status or don't have immigration status are not eligible for any housing benefits or subsidies.

When folks say that providing people housing support is on the taxpayer's dime, it's like not a thing because our community, which should be provided housing support, currently isn't. People just need a little bit of help so that they're able to save up enough to get out, but we should be providing people who need it when times are tough, housing support to keep them in to get them into housing, and then keeping them into housing because it's much more costly to keep people in emergency shelters.

Brian Lehrer: A few more minutes with Murad Awawdeh, who's the executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition, the advocacy group and service provider, as we talk about this being the one-year anniversary later this week of the first busload of asylum-seeking migrants bused from Texas by Governor Greg Abbott there. Mayor Adams estimates almost 100,000 people have arrived in that category since then.

We did, a little earlier, invite people to call in if you are an asylum seeker yourself, so we can talk not just about the right and wrong of policy steps but also just how some of these human beings are doing. If you're an asylum seeker or work with an asylum seeker or otherwise know an asylum seeker who's arrived since August 5th of last year, we've invited you to call in. We have some callers like that. Rena in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rena. Thank you for calling in.

Rena: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Rena: Great. My son works at a restaurant where there are several asylum seekers working on the books who've gotten their papers. They are incredibly helpful reaching out. Nothing is a problem, just want to work, have an incredible attitude, and restaurants really need workers. His story of these people, it's inspirational and really a pleasure to hear about-- They're just so happy to be here and everyone has rallied around. When they first arrived, gotten them clothed and help them out as much as they could. It's a flip side of, "Oh, these people, they're a burden. They're taking our jobs." No, they're not. None of the above.

Brian Lehrer: Rena, thank you very much. Celeste on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Celeste.

Celeste: Hi. I actually know these people really well. I'm an immigration lawyer. I started doing some pro bono work and I got to know some of these families really well. We go on vacation with them. I've been a witness at weddings. They house sit for us. I could tell you almost anything you want to know about them.

Brian Lehrer: Tell me one thing that's interesting to you that you think listeners should know about them.

Celeste: I wrote down some surprising facts about them, but if you wanted to know more about the family. I'm by the family hotels in Staten Island. About 5% of the people in the hotel are Russian. Almost all of them are basically fleeing because they were against the war in some way. Either they were being drafted or they were protestors or something like that. The Russians have a lot of mutual aid going on.

They started a running club. They share food with each other. If one of them goes to a food pantry, they get everyone else's information and bring it to them. Some surprising facts about the people in the shelter that I wrote down as almost all of the families there have at least one family member working right now. I don't know any of the families that have two parents working. Almost none of the women are working because they have to basically get the kids off the bus or take care of them.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, since you're talking about people from Russia, this is a different group than those coming up from the southern border or some Russians coming in through there and that's who you're talking about?

Celeste: They come through the southern border, yes. All of these people came through the southern border. I would say the hotel is probably about 70% Venezuelan, 5% Russian, and then 15% like other South American. What the Russians do is they fly to Mexico and then they come through the border like everybody else.

Brian Lehrer: Celeste, thank you so much for your call. Interesting piece of the puzzle there, Murad Awawdeh, right? I wonder if you have a breakdown at the New York Immigration Coalition that reflects what Celeste was saying. Overwhelmingly Venezuelans, a few Russians, a lot of people from elsewhere in Central and South America. Who are the 100,000 people nationality-wise?

Murad Awawdeh: I think the great deal of folks are Latino from South and Central America. Probably in that category, the largest group being Venezuelan. We also do have folks from Russia, folks in the Ukraine, folks from Senegal, Mauritania area, Democratic Republic of Congo, Turkey, the Middle East. It's a pretty diverse population that's making their way up to New York.

As a state that has welcomed and benefited from immigrants for centuries, we all share a role in welcoming asylum seekers seeking a safer and better future here. Asylum seekers, immigrants, and migrants bring huge economic opportunities. Our communities, our workforce is shrinking and moving out of the state. The increasing immigrant population is going to be able to, as you heard from the first caller, help support our local economies grow and keep our state economically competitive.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Alicia in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alicia.

Alicia: Oh, hi. Good morning. Long-time listener. I would like to contribute and thank the organizations like your guest's organization that have been doing this kind of response. I'm actually a CUNY professor who studies migration, but it became very personal last August when the hotel around the corner from my home on the Upper West Side became a shelter. With other neighbors in my community and incredible partnership with the Ascension church on 107th Street, we became first responders initially just trying to get people changes of clothes because they were transported from Texas without so much as a change of clothes or diapers for their babies.

That slowly evolved into a longer-term mutual aid effort where we have been working with people to get acclimated in lots of different ways and try to connect them to services that are available. It's been really disturbing to me as a New Yorker to see the scarcity mindset that the city has taken and the way that that has infested what is historically a very proud immigrant city.

I think we need to, instead of having this mindset that this is a crisis, really have an abundance mentality. We're a wealthy city and this is not an either/or. It's not a zero-sum game where we can think about the needs of New Yorkers who have been here as well as new New Yorkers. I think we need to have innovative policy solutions that erect fewer barriers to people's assimilation because their kids are already feeling like New Yorkers.

They know the subway system. They're thriving in school in some cases. They're being treated in many cases like prisoners. If we have an abolitionist mindset about prisons, we also need to have an abolitionist mindset about how we treat people who are in the shelter system and all kinds of institutional environments in New York City where we treat people with this scarcity mindset.

Brian Lehrer: Some people are calling in to ask Murad based on his comments, and I guess they would ask you too. Where are we going to put 100,000 people who've come in one year's time? Isn't that scarcity, in fact, they would ask?

Alicia: I think there's not. I think Mayor Adams has such a brain trust in this city. If he put out a call for proposals to create a policy fix to convert unused spaces in New York City, not just thinking as they are now about school gymnasiums, but to really think holistically about how we solve the housing crisis for all New Yorkers, I think we could come up with things. Instead, we're basically treating people as prisoners, preventing them from working, supervising their every move.

As we can see with the prior caller saying, many of the mothers are not participating in the workforce because they're being threatened that their kids will be taken away from them if they leave them in the care of another teenager at the shelter. This kind of surveillance mentality is just going to perpetuate this problem where the city is expected to somehow pay for all of this when, in fact, there's enough energy and innovation if it can be unleashed with creative policy solutions. If we are in a defensive crouch that this is a crisis, we are not thinking creatively as a city.

Brian Lehrer: Alicia, thank you for your call. To wrap this up, Murad, I do want to touch on the news from court last week. I'll read The New York Times headline on this, Federal Judge Blocks Biden Administration's New Asylum Policy. For all we usually hear in the news about Biden border policies being criticized from the right, this was by people in your community, the immigration advocacy community who won against Biden in court.

The article says, "Immigrant advocacy groups had challenged the administration's decision to sharply limit who is allowed to apply for asylum in the United States." It says, "Under the policy, most people are disqualified from applying for asylum if they have crossed into the United States without either securing an appointment at an official port of entry or proving that they sought legal protection in another country along the way."

Then it says, "Immigrant advocacy groups who sued the administration said that the policy violated immigration law, which says that foreigners who reach US soil are entitled to request asylum regardless of how they entered the country." The advocacy community won on that for now. I know it's still being evaluated and that's not a final decision. Where do you think that stands?

Murad Awawdeh: The right to seek asylum is a legal and human right guaranteed under US and international law. It was unfortunate that the Biden administration wanted to use Trumpian tactics to bar people seeking refuge from persecution, from violence, and from everything that any single person, myself, assuming you as well, Brian, if your life was in danger, you would want to protect yourself and your family and be able to seek safety. That's what folks are trying to do. We don't know where this case is going to go. The judge has ordered them to lift the new policies, which even take us further back to lift it within 14 days.

I think the Biden administration is considering appealing it in court. We're seeing, on a global level, migration increase. We can't keep just saying this is not our issue. This is our issue, especially as a state, as a nation that has benefited from immigrants for centuries. We have to share the responsibility and welcome people as well as support folks. It's going to take local, state, and federal governments to collaborate and ensure that people are received in a dignified and respectful way instead of showing chaos.

Brian Lehrer: Murad Awawdeh, executive director at the New York Immigration Coalition. This Saturday marks one year since the first bus of asylum seekers was sent by Texas to New York City. 100,000 people nearly have arrived since then in that way. Murad, always great to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us.

Murad Awawdeh: Thank you for having me.

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