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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom. Have you checked out any of the new businesses popping up in a neighborhood near you? There's the Barbershop Museum in the Upper West Side where you can buy digital art from a budtender, who will in turn gift you some cannabis for your art purchase, or how about the Empire Cannabis Club in Chelsea in the Lower East Side? A self-described nonprofit where you can pay $15 for a one-day membership, thereby grants you the right to buy weed from their private club.

Or maybe you have a local canna-bus parked on a corner near you like the Uncle Budd Van where you can walk up, peruse a menu, then offer a donation, wink, wink, and walk away with some bud for your generosity? These are just a few examples of the industrious weed businesses popping up in the city in what has become a quasi-lawless gray market.

They found imaginative ways to operate, tiptoeing around a legal landscape in a period where recreational marijuana has been legalized, but state regulators have not yet awarded any licenses for businesses to legally sell it.

There are small businesses trying to get a head start in the city before publicly traded weed dispensary giants move in, in what's expected to be a $4.2 billion market within 5 years. Meanwhile, in New Jersey, yesterdayGovernor Murphy had this to say about where his state is in the process towards legal marijuana sales.

Governor Murphy: I would hope in March that you're going to see explicit movement on the medical dispensary. Some number of them being able to sell recreational.

Brigid Bergin: Joining us now to talk about the gray market in New York City and when you might be able to buy it legally in New Jersey and more cannabis-related news, is Alyson Martin. She's Co-founder of Cannabis Wire and also teaches at the Columbia Journalism School. Alyson, welcome back to WNYC.

Alyson Martin: Thanks so much for having me again.

Brigid Bergin: Are these popup dispensaries and weed buses legal?

Alyson Martin: You said canna-bus, that's a new one. I like that one. Regulators have been really explicit, lawmakers as well, any adult-use sales in New York right now are 100% illegal. It's interesting because I think a lot of this is going to come down to education. New York legalized cannabis, and so in the ramp-up to rules coming out, it's going to be a big lift on the part of regulators and lawmakers to communicate specifically what's legal, what's illegal.

Brigid Bergin: Is this what has allowed the gray market of unofficial marijuana dispensaries, and as we mentioned those canna-buses and storefronts to flourish?

Alyson Martin: I wouldn't say lack of education is what's allowing it. I think that cannabis entrepreneurs generally, by the very nature of being in that business, are thinking ahead of the curve constantly. Cannabis is still illegal at the federal level, which means we have this patchwork of state law, state by state, and now within states, within jurisdictions. What's actually causing it is essentially this state and federal dissonance, and folks wanting to get out ahead of it, anticipating that the rules might be strict or too stringent for them. Also, there are these very high barriers for what's being called equity applicants.

It's not a term that your everyday consumer might know about, but when the cannabis legalization law was passed, it was passed with a very specific goal of lifting up equity entrepreneurs and equity applicants. It's going to be part of that balancing act of, how do we bring in those legacy operators? Those are, the people that you're referring to are also called legacy operators. How do we bring them into the fold and transition them? I think a lot, a word that we're going to hear very often as the market is launched is transition from the unlicensed market to the licensed market.

Brigid Bergin: Is this transition that we're seeing typical of how other states went through the process? California, Colorado, Illinois?

Alyson Martin: That's such a great question. It is typical in many ways, but it's New York. New York is going to be one of the biggest legal markets in the world, let alone in the country, and New York is doing things a little bit differently. When Assembly Majority Leader, Crystal Peoples-Stokes and Senator Liz Krueger negotiated with former governor, Andrew Cuomo, legalization, they really dug their heels in on equity and really made sure that those equity provisions, I apologize ahead of time for this pun, were baked into legislation. Is it typical of what we see in other states?

Yes, in some ways, and no, in other ways. I think New York is going to have a slightly different path because of that equity mandate.

Brigid Bergin: Your most recent piece is about Governor Hochul, who has signed a bill allowing hemp farmers to grow New York's first legal cannabis crop. How long do you think until marijuana legally grown in New York is legally sold in New York?

Alyson Martin: Ooh man, that's a tough question. I'm going to have to ask my crystal ball here. I've been paying a lot of attention to these "cannabis conversations" that New York regulators have been having, and it's this statewide effort to engage stakeholders of all stripes. In the course of those conversations, Tremaine Wright, who heads up CCB for the state, she fueled a lot of Q&A. Over the course of those conversations, one thing I did here were some breadcrumbs and hints about that timeline. I think we're going to see the draft rules, which have to come first, sometime "this spring".

I think it could be next month, March, in New York. Then there is a public comment period and things need to keep rolling out. With that bill that Governor Hochul signed giving hemp farmers a head start, that's great. I grew up in Upstate New York, she beat the last frost of the season. Hemp farmers are going to be able to plant higher THC cannabis seeds and participate in that growing season. Hopefully, it'll cooperate. We all know what New York weather is like. What's interesting about it is that there are still specific equity provisions in that bill as well.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, help us report this story. Have you visited any gray market weed businesses like the Empire Cannabis Club, or the Uncle Budd Bus, or any others? What was it like? Did you, as a buyer, have to do anything, like buy a one-day pass, or pay a donation to circumvent the rules to buy your marijuana? Tell us about it. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. We can also take any marijuana industry-related questions for our guest, Alyson Martin. She is Co-founder of Cannabis Wire and teaches journalism at the Columbia Journalism School.

Call us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Alyson, I want to go back for a moment to talk for a second about New Jersey.

Alyson Martin: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: We just heard that clip of Governor Murphy saying we might see legal marijuana sales in March. Do you think that's a fair target?

Alyson Martin: I've been following New Jersey very closely obviously because there's a little bit of border tension with states. Like we're starting to see conversations pick up in Pennsylvania in part because of New York and New Jersey. In New Jersey, I think there are a few things happening there, like existing medical shops. They have an existing medical cannabis industry. They want to open first. There's obviously a clear market advantage to being an early operator or a first operator.

A key requirement is local municipal approval, which at one of the recent regulatory meetings that had a regulator over there, said basically, that's the component that's severely lacking right now. The governor is saying this week that he's expecting those sales to begin in a matter of weeks. I think we're going to learn a whole lot more possibly even later on this afternoon. There's a regulatory meeting at 1:00 PM. I think it's a fair target though.

Brigid Bergin: It's interesting. Has New Jersey seen that same kind of gray market, quasi-market, pop up that we're seeing here in New York?

Alyson Martin: I think it's actually more diverse and a little bit more prevalent in New York. Of course, New York being such a diverse state in a literal sense, you've got such different markets in New York City, and different markets Upstate. Everything from "sticker shops", where you walk in and pay far, far more than you should for stickers, but you're actually getting gifted some kind of cannabis or cannabis product. These membership clubs that you're talking about, they're taking different forms in New York. I personally, even in my visiting in New Jersey and that sort of that thing, I'm seeing it more in New York, but that's just my anecdotal visible reference there. It's not based on data. I don't know where it's more prevalent, New York or New Jersey, but I'm seeing different types and more of a spectrum of different types of gray market activity in New York.

Brigid Bergin: [hiccups] Excuse me. I'm wondering where New York State is right now in terms of awarding licenses to legally sell marijuana.

Alyson Martin: New York, the license window hasn't opened yet. The first thing is going to be for those draft rules to come down. That's the kind of I think collective, I don't want to say foot tapping, but that's definitely what I think the industry is looking for. In some of my most recent conversations this week, all eyes and ears are on those OCM, Office of Cannabis Management meetings.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to some of our callers. Jay in Manhattan, welcome to WNYC.

Jay: Hey. I used Uncle Budd's only once, but it was very safe and seamless. I think it's unfortunate that the government is trying to crack down on these businesses. I think the fear we all had was that this would be overregulated, and the New York State government would have such a heavy hand on these businesses. It seemed to have set up like it's a food truck. You walk up, and the menu, didn't offer exactly what they had on the menu, but it's a startup business, and it was seamless. It was easy, and I was grateful to have the ability to--

I've been to other cities where it's legal and you could walk into an actual dispensary. This was not quite as nice, but I was grateful to have the ability to purchase marijuana that way.

Brigid Bergin: Jay, where did you see this bus, and how did you hear about it? Did you just happen upon it, or was this something that's in your were social networks, was a buzz?

Jay: Word of mouth, and I don't want to snitch. It was in Manhattan, somewhere in Manhattan. Clearly, there seems to have, the heat is on them now. I will say it was on the island of Manhattan.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. Jay, thank you so much for your call. Let's go to Michael in Harlem. Michael, welcome to WNYC.

Michael: How are you today?

Brigid Bergin: Great. What's your experience?

Michael: I also live near that same dispensary, which is a stretch of the words. My experience is this, is that I'm a convicted drug felon. I was arrested about 15 years ago and convicted of selling about 10 tons of pot. I'm super, super tied into this market on both a legal and gray level. I find it to be confusing that there's a Russian pot dispensary that gets weed from California, selling weed in New York City legally. It defies the logic. It asks many questions as to how and why this is being rolled out. I know the Uncle Budd guys connects directly to a sergeant on the precinct, where they are doing a lot of business, which calls into question the police aspect of this.

It's federally illegal, it's state-decided, but I think there has to be a better way of rolling this out than this. Again, I give people my money. I'm happy to do it

Brigid Bergin: Michael, thank you. I want to take the point you raised about local law enforcement and the regulators. How have they intervened is in this gray market, Alyson? Have they done any enforcement? Is the NYPD cracking down on these illegal dispensaries?

Alyson Martin: This is such an interesting balancing act. in one of the recent conversations that I had with Senator Diane Savino, she mentioned that she was working on a bill that was aimed at enforcement against these unlicensed operators, which is I think still in drafting phase. It hasn't been formally introduced yet, I don't think. We talked a little bit about this education component because consumers aren't the only ones who probably need some level of education. What's legal, what's illegal, what's tested, what's not tested. What's testing for THC content and CBD content, and other cannabinoids?

Also things like heavy metals, molds, mildews. There's an education component with the police too because-- In this transition, it's everything from, are police now enforcing against small possession? No, not at all, but where and when do they enforce against unlicensed operators? Do they know those sorts of fine point little lines in the law or in various pieces of legislation that might be in the works? That's going to be part of it. There hasn't been any kind of widespread crackdown so far. I don't think there will be. I think if anything, it would be a game of whack-a-mole for regulators and members of law enforcement and lawmakers.

As we've been talking about this gray-market activity, it's one part, how do you lift up the forthcoming legal market and give them the tools they need to succeed as legal businesses while not over-criminalizing cannabis? Because, as we know, when it comes to criminalization of cannabis laws or enforcement of cannabis laws, communities of color always bear the brunt of that disproportionate enforcement.

Brigid Bergin: Let's stay on that topic of equity for a moment here. I think one of our callers, Jose in Brooklyn, has a question on that. Jose, welcome to WNYC.

Jose: Hello. Hello, Alyson. I'm a big follower, I bought the book. I'm currently in, like I said, the legal transition. I'm trying to get to the bottom of that, but it seems like from what I Alyson said to be the first state to dispense marijuana differently, like Alyson was saying, with the social equity. I'm basically building my portfolio and building a case, but my question is to Alyson. What would be the best advice for a person like me that has to go against some big company from California? What advice would you have as far as getting a head start as far as real estate, or I don't know, like [crosstalk]?

Alyson Martin: These are big, big, big questions. Jose, it's a pleasure to meet you over the radio waves. A few things. New York is doing things differently in a few different ways. If I were thinking about being a smaller operator, I would be thinking a lot about partnerships, and I would be thinking about these 150 or so hemp cultivators that are going to get the head start, how I might be able to work with them. Then I would also think about craft cannabis, like craft beer. Some of the best beers that are out there are from smaller producers.

People even trade the cans on eBay. That sort of thing. I would think a lot about how New York is going to be lifting up these very specifically small operators because equity is defined as everything from being part of a community that's been disproportionately hit by these laws and the enforcement of them, but also like women farmers, the stress farmers, veterans, those sorts of things.

Brigid Bergin: We're going to have to leave it there for now. My guest has been Alyson Martin. She is Co-founder of Cannabis Wire and also teaches at Columbia Journalism School. Alyson, thanks so much for coming on today.

Alyson Martin: Brigid, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

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