[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. How would you like to start your day with this phone call?

[phone ringing]

Oleksandra Romantsova: Hello?

Olav Njølstad: Yes, hello. Is this Mrs. Romantsova?

Oleksandra Romantsova: Yes. Oleksandra Romantsova, it's me. Hello.

Olav Njølstad: Yes, hello. I am Olav Njølstad, director of the Norwegian Nobel Institute in Oslo.

Brian Lehrer: The Nobel Prize calling. Here's some of how she reacted to her Nobel Peace Prize.

Oleksandra Romantsova: Yes.

Olav Njølstad: I'm calling you on behalf of the Norwegian Nobel Committee to inform you that in a very few minutes it will be announced here from the Nobel Institute that the Center for Civil Liberties will be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for 2022 together with another human rights organization and one individual, so congratulations still.

Oleksandra Romantsova: [laughs] It's great. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I guess she didn't see it coming. A joyful moment in a dangerous time. Here is the official announcement a little while later from Berit Reiss-Andersen, chair of the Norwegian Nobel Committee.

Berit Reiss-Andersen: This year's Peace Prize is awarded to human rights advocate, Ales Bialiatski, from Belarus, the Russian human rights organization, Memorial, and the Ukrainian human rights organization, Center for Civil Liberties.

Brian Lehrer: Here to talk about this year's selection by the Nobel Committee for their Peace Prize, we are joined now by Mark Leon Goldberg, editor-in-chief and publisher of the publication, UN Dispatch, and host of the podcast, Global Dispatches, and Rachel Denber, Europe and Central Asia Deputy Director for Human Rights Watch, the human rights group, who also joins us now. Mark and Rachel, thank you very much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Mark Leon Goldberg: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to open this up to you too. If anybody out there is familiar with the work of today's Nobel Peace Prize recipients, which I know most Americans are not, and want to share your joy about the award or talk about the important work that they're doing at this moment, we invite you to give us call at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer, or even to push back on the concept of the Nobel Peace Prize, as some people do, you can share that as well. Mark Leon Goldberg, big picture, is this rewarding these groups, per se, the one from Ukraine, the one from Russia, the one from Belarus, or pushing back against Vladimir Putin since the threat to human rights that they're all fighting seems to be coming from his government?

Mark Leon Goldberg: It is definitely an award for the work of the individual entities that received the honor today. That is first and foremost an honor of the important human rights work that each of these entities and individuals has done, but you can't lose sight of the broader picture in which these awards were conferred. The context here matters a lot. The Russian organization, Memorial, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize as they are under siege by Putin's government as the organization is trying to be shut down. Bialiatski is awarded this prize from prison in Belarus, and the Center for Ukrainian Civil Rights is awarded this as they are researching and documenting Russian war crimes in Ukraine. Context here certainly matters.

Brian Lehrer: Rachel Denber, today is Putin's birthday, so it could seem personal. Of course, they always award the Nobel Peace Prize on this Friday in October, but I did see where the Nobel Committee said it was about his government. Does that distinction make a difference?

Rachel Denber: I think that it's Russian autocracy that has formed the context in which these three organizations are doing their important work. Putin obviously has formed that autocracy, but he didn't do it alone. I think we really need to focus on what it is that the tremendously challenging environment that people like Ales Bialiatski, that Memorial, and that Center for Civil Liberties have been operating under. Center for Civil Liberties have been operating under basically the invasion, the war against their country by Russia, really, since 2014 and then obviously intensified starting in February.

This is a war that Russia launched. It's a war that has been Putin's-- I don't want to call it Putin's war because it is Russia's war against Ukraine. The autocracy that reigns in Belarus it's one that Lukashenko [unintelligible 00:06:00] with Putin and with the Kremlin back in 2020 in the wake of the much discredited presidential vote and the massive demonstrations that followed that. Lukashenko [unintelligible 00:06:24] with the Kremlin and cracked down in a tyrannical way that we have not seen since the Soviet era. Now, Putin has been on an autocratic trajectory, really, since--

I think people would argue about when it started, but certainly, since his return to the Kremlin in 2011. With each year, the level of autocracy, the level of repression kept twerking up and up. Then now it's reached unprecedented levels since the new invasion of Ukraine with war censorship, with hundreds of criminal cases against people because they're expressing their criticism of the war, criticism of the invasion, criticism of the abuses that the war crimes that Russian forces are perpetrating in Ukraine. The top opposition figures are behind bars, Alexei Navalny, Ilya Yashin, and Vladimir Kara-Murza who just yesterday was slammed with treason charges. Who thought even a year ago that we would be in this place where Russia is just leaping backwards into its totalitarian past?

Brian Lehrer: We've been talking so far about the big picture of why these three individuals or groups were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize today, the context in that part of the world. Let's talk about the individual ones a little bit distinct from each other. We played the clip at the beginning of Oleksandra Romantsova, CEO of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, one of the recipients of the Peace Prize. Mark, I think if there was a Las Vegas betting favorite, it probably would've been Zelensky himself. We heard the surprise in her voice when she got that call informing her that the center had won the Peace Prize. Are you surprised that it's them rather than Zelensky? Does it mean anything different that it's them rather than Zelensky?

Mark Leon Goldberg: It does mean something different. First, there is perhaps some peril when awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to a political leader. While Zelensky has shown himself to be a heroic figure in Ukraine and for those of us around the world who have looked to him in this really difficult moment and his ability to keep the spotlight on Ukraine's struggles against an invading army in a war of aggression is indeed a heroic thing, but it is, I think, complicated and problematic for the Nobel Committee to confer the Peace Prize on a political figure at war.

There is an unfortunate recent history of the Nobel Committee giving the Peace Prize to political leaders, to heads of state that ended up not reflecting well on them. I'm thinking most recently, in 2019, the Nobel Prize was conferred on Abiy Ahmed the prime minister of Ethiopia for his work, brokering peace with neighboring Eritrea. Well, in retrospect, it looks like that peace deal was a prelude to joining forces with Eritrea against the common enemy in the north of Ethiopia, the Tigrayan Liberation Front.

Now these two, the Ethiopian government and the Eritrean government, are fighting a civil war in Ethiopia that's having horrible humanitarian consequences around the world. I think the Nobel Committee is thinking twice when awarding the Peace Prize to a political leader. That said, awarding it to members of civil society itself is a statement. I'm thinking this is the second year in a row, in fact, that the award has been given to Russian civil society. Last year, a heroic Russian journalist in his publication was awarded the prize. This year it is going to a Russian human rights organization.

Again, this comes in the context, as Rachel noted, of really shrinking space for civil society. More and more of these publications and of these human rights entities are being shut down in the midst of Putin's consolidation of power in his war abroad. That itself, I think, is a significant statement of support for civil society in [unintelligible 00:11:26] places.

Brian Lehrer: Rachel, the Russian human rights group that was given the Nobel Peace Prize along with the group from Ukraine and the individual from Belarus is called Memorial. My understanding of Memorial is that they focus really on what happened in the Stalin era and trying to have Russians today come to terms more explicitly with that. Are you familiar with them? Could you say also how that relates to what's happening in Russia under Putin today if it does?

Rachel Denber: Sure. Actually, I know Memorial quite well. I have had the privilege of being their colleague and working alongside with them for really almost 30 years. I was at their-- As you mentioned, the Russian government has shut them down. They were put through, I kid you not, they actually use the term liquidation proceedings. The government liquidated them. Ministry of Justice filed a lawsuit to liquidate them based on the toxic so-called foreign agent law that's been enforced in Russia since 2012. I was at the court hearings last year last December when they were liquidated, and I can tell you that Memorial--

It's two key entities were the International Memorial and the Memorial Human Rights Center. International Memorial documented Stalin's crimes. It documented repression in Soviet era. It provided humanitarian relief for victims of Soviet oppression for former political prisoners and their [unintelligible 00:13:26] political prisoners and their families. It really fought for historical memory. It ran education and public awareness projects. Every year, on the last day of October, it ran an all-day project where it's on political prisoners' day where thousands of people would line up to read out several names of victims of the great terror, people who were shot during Stalin's time.

They did projects like this. They have, in recent years, been under tremendous pressure, just widespread efforts by the government and by pro-government and nationalists and extremist groups to stigmatize them, to intimidate them, and the like. Then finally, the government, like I said, shut them down. The other part of Memorial that was liquidated was the Memorial Human Rights Center, which focuses on human rights abuses in contemporary Russia. They ran a project on current political prisoners as there are many people in Russia today who are in jail for politically motivated reasons.

This includes the opposition figures who I just mentioned. It includes people who have been incarcerated for their anti-war stance. I'm not kidding, more than a hundred Jehovah's Witnesses are behind bars today only for being Jehovah's Witnesses, and hundreds more are under criminal prosecution. It consists of these two branches. Not only have they been liquidated, but just today, they're in court because the government is trying to confiscate the building that they own.

Brian Lehrer: I understand that a certain nostalgia, if that's even the right word for Stalin, is rising in Russia these days. It's not just an abstraction that Putin's government would want to shut down Memorial as it tries to come to grips with all of the horrors of the Stalin era, but there's some connection in a certain sense to empowering Putin even more that hearkens back to looking better at Stalin than Russia has in recent years. Is that your understanding?

Rachel Denber: Oh, absolutely. The Kremlin [unintelligible 00:16:08] they're trying to manipulate and weaponize historical memory. There was never really a reckoning with Stalin's crimes as much as Memorial was dedicated to that. There were many other groups and individuals who really tried to foster that reckoning in Russian society, but certainly, after 2000 after Putin became president, those efforts were not only [unintelligible 00:16:40] but they were vilified. No, there's not been a reckoning. Yes, there is a nostalgia, but I think it's also important to recognize the role that political leadership plays in fermenting that nostalgia and stigmatizing and suppressing and trying to control efforts by people who are truth-tellers.

There's another Russian activist with Memorial who's been in jail for years now because of his efforts to-- He's a researcher who has tried to bring awareness to the killing of POWs from-- I'm sorry. Anyway, he's trying to bring light to efforts on mass graves of people who were killed during the Stalin era, and he's been in jail on completely very dubious charges. They've tried to control and weaponize memory.

Brian Lehrer: Finally, to the third winner. Mark Leon Goldberg from UN Dispatch, I'll turn to you for this. We talked about the human rights groups in Ukraine and Russia that were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize this morning. The third is a gentleman and individual from Belarus. I think our listeners are somewhat familiar with Russia, somewhat familiar with Ukraine recently, not so much with Belarus, but I think it's a staging area for Putin with respect to the war because they're closely allied. Maybe tell us a little bit about the place of Belarus in the world right now, and tell us about this winner of the Nobel Peace Prize from there.

Mark Leon Goldberg: Sure. Belarus is often referred to in Western media as the last remaining dictatorship in the heart of Europe. It has been ruled by Alexander Lukashenko for decades, closely aligned with the government of Vladimir Putin. In 2020 as these kinds of dictatorships often do, they hold an election with the expectation that they'll get a 90% vote in favor. They rig the election. However, back in 2020, they didn't expect an outpouring of opposition. There were mass protests around this election time calling for free and fair elections.

In the context of that protest movement, which was really widespread, the government of Lukashenko went to real extreme lengths to crack down on these movements. Listeners might be aware of this really odd situation last year in which a Ryanair flight, a commercial airliner from Greece, happened to be flying over Belarusian airspace and was grounded in Belarus, and on board was a dissident journalist who was subsequently arrested. Bialiatski is a long-time Belarusian human rights advocate, democracy advocate who has been in and out of prison. He was out of prison participating in these protests in 2020 and 2021, was arrested during this crackdown, and is now languishing in prison, reportedly in very harsh conditions.

I think what is significant about awarding this prize to him as he languishes in prison is that it raises his stature on the international scene. I know human rights defenders like Rachel Denber surely know who he is, but he's not a household name in the international community, in the international policy community, but now he will be. Holding him in jail raises the stakes for Lukashenko and the Belarusian government. This is now going to be a key issue when governments around the world are dealing with Belarus is the status of Bialiatski, and I think this is the key significant factor of awarding him the prize is to raise his profile.

Brian Lehrer: The Nobel Peace Prize out this morning. We thank Mark Leon Goldberg, editor-in-chief and publisher of the publication, UN Dispatch, and Rachel Denber, Europe and Central Asia Deputy Director for Human Rights Watch for talking about the winners and the context of their work. Thank you so much for coming on with us on short notice today.

Rachel Denber: Thank you.

Mark Leon Goldberg: Yes, my pleasure.

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