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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Should police officers have anti-bias protection under the law, like women and people of color and sexual minorities and people with disabilities. A new bill just passed by the Nassau County legislature after a very contentious debate, would make police officers a protected class under the county's human rights law, meaning they could sue protesters. This is mostly about suing protesters for damages that they say protesters inflict, on the grounds of anti-police bias.

County Executive Laura Curran has not yet decided whether to sign the legislation. To tell us more about this and take your calls on it, I'm joined by Newsday politics reporter Candice Ferrette. Candice thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Candice Ferrette: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us more about this bill. Who could sue whom under what circumstances?

Candice Ferrette: Okay. This bill, which drew a ton of opposition on Monday night's meeting, basically allows the county attorney to sue on behalf of police officers who are harassed, menaced, injured, whether it be in the line of duty, or if they are in uniform. They can sue for damages of up to $25,000 per incident, or if it's during the course of a riot, $50,000.

Brian Lehrer: This is not just for physical assaults, causing damages as I understand it, but also for verbal harassment. I saw one quote of a phrase from the bill that includes the term seriously annoy. If somebody seriously annoys a police officer, the county would be able to sue that protester.

Candice Ferrette: [chuckles] Yes, it does include verbal abuse, or what the officer perceives as verbal abuse. One of the things that has drawn a lot of [unintelligible 00:02:23] is actually a clause in the law, that is-- your legal beagles out there will probably understand it, I don't have a degree in constitutional law, but it's an irrefutable presumption, meaning that if an officer is in uniform, and there's a protest that maybe gets out of hand, the things that are said to the officer, either directly or indirectly could be used as harassment.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Candice Ferrette: Because that officer is in uniform, it's assumed that it is a bias against the officer. If the officer-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Candice Ferrette: Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: No, you go.

Candice Ferrette: [chuckles] I'm just going to try to break it down very simply. If I'm online at the grocery store, and someone says something about police, and there's a plainclothes or off-duty officer online, nothing will happen. You don't assume that any of those words are being used against the person who's online just because he's a police officer or a first responder. If you're in uniform and on duty, and you're doing your job at a protest, absolutely, yes.

Brian Lehrer: What about a little thing called the First Amendment? I understand that you're not a lawyer, but on the verbal abuse part, how is this debate playing out? If somebody wants to go up to an officer in uniform and call them an effing pig or whatever, isn't that protected speech?

Candice Ferrette: Well, that is the sticking point here. That's the issue. That is why Nassau County Executive Laura Curran has asked for a legal opinion from State Attorney General Tish James. Whether or not this curtails the First Amendment rights of people who are gathering peaceably.

Brian Lehrer: Is it only for people who are protesting something? What if it happens in the course of an officer's attempt to arrest me and I don't think it's justified and I'm screaming something at the cop, does it apply then? In a normal situation outside of a protest.

Candice Ferrette: I believe that it could, yes. Again, up for discussion still, and certainly I'm not the legal end all be all, but yes, that is what it appears is that that could happen. It also takes the definition of riot, and I think there's a federal definition if I'm not mistaken, that defines it as involving three or more people and violence involving one or more persons. It's a pretty loose definition of a riot.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you can call in on this if you're a police officer, somebody who's attended protests, or anyone else, and tell us what you think, or you can ask our guest from Newsday a question at 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280 for Candace Ferrette from Newsday politics reporter from Newsday, or a tweet @BrianLehrer with a question or comment about this bill. I want to play a clip from Monday's hearing at the beating of the Nassau County legislature. This is James McDermott from the Nassau Police Benevolent Society.

James McDermott: Nassau County law enforcement deserves the support of our elected officials and every possible protection to keep them safe throughout the course of their duties. Any attempt to say otherwise disrespects all who wear the badge. We applaud the Nassau County legislature who continue to stand up for law and order and support our police during this unprecedented time.

Brian Lehrer: That's on the pro-police side in favor of this bill. Here now is Tracey Edwards, Long Island, regional director of the NAACP.

Tracey Edwards: You are taking that chosen sacred profession, and you are trying to put it above all others. If any of you feel that you are discriminated against, because of all the wonderful women that stood before you, you have to prove it. This bill says you don't have to.

Brian: Candice, by way of background before we take some of the many calls that are coming in, what does it mean to be a protected class under this bill? What are the other protected classes the first responders would join?

Candice Ferrette: Sure. Under the human rights law, like in many other counties and municipalities, it typically governs employment and housing. People of racial minorities, people who have faced religious prosecution, people who just historically have been oppressed, who have been discriminated against primarily in the areas, like as I said, of housing, the ability to practice religion, or economically, are deemed in the protective class, based on sexual orientation. I will add veterans as well, veteran status. These kinds of groups.

Brian Lehrer: There's no other job category, I guess, veteran is as close as we might come, but no other job category. From what I'm seeing during the pandemic, workers in restaurants take a lot more verbal abuse than police officers do on a day-to-day basis, not to support verbal abuse against police officers in any way, but it's rampant in some other fields.

Candice Ferrette: Correct. One would argue that journalists also get verbally abused sometimes.

Brian Lehrer: Once in a while.

Candice Ferrette: [laughs] By the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't highlight the fact that women are also deemed a protected class, and they have faced oppression and discrimination in many of those areas as well. That would be the only real procession that would be covered by the human rights law, grocery store workers, restaurant workers, none of those categories apply.

Brian Lehrer: Dennis calling in from Nassau County says he was at that hearing on Monday night. Hi, Dennis, thank you for calling.

Dennis: Thank you so much. I appreciate you allowing me to come in. Yes, I was present. I'm also a prior law enforcement, I was with the NYPD for 25 years. This bill is absolutely ludicrous. There is absolutely no need to make police officers a protected class. They do their jobs. They are loved throughout the nation. You have bad apples and good apples in every profession. We can't take every other profession and allow them to complain and then make a law that covers them. It doesn't make any sense.

My part of the Long Island advocates for police accountability, and we have looked through this bill and we have found so many problems that obviously is a bill that was put together to dispute the Black Lives Matter Movement in the past few years after George Floyd was murdered. It talks about over 700 injuries and 700 actions against police officers, and none of those can be documented taken place in Nassau County. Why is Nassau County trying to do this bill?

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think? If this has not been a salient issue in Nassau county, why is Nassau county the place in the United States that is spearheading this movement?

Dennis: Because we have in Nassau County, law enforcement are the largest-- they're the highest paid, and their unions have more power than most unions or most unions all throughout the state of New York or even in other places. They are pressuring the legislation so that they can have this as an opportunity to answer out against any kind of violence that exists or any kind of pressure that they have to experience while they're at work.

Brian Lehrer: Dennis, thank you for your call. On the politics, and you're a politics reporter, is it because the police unions are very powerful in Nassau County and they have the ear and maybe there's funding or whatever or a high turnout in local elections so they have influence over the county legislators that this is happening in Nassau County?

Candice Ferrette: I don't want to draw that direct line, but I will say they are a very, very powerful entity in Nassau County in particular. Not only those who are members of the Nassau County Police, but historically, particularly on the south shore of Nassau County, there's a lot of law enforcement and NYPD, FDNY, whose politics often follow some of the Nassau County Police.

I will say also that it was repeated over and over again throughout the year by the county executive and the police commissioner that there were no violent incidents against police during the Black Lives Matters protests and that they were large. Thousands of them occurred all over Long Island. I think the vast majority of which were totally safe and completely peaceful.

Brian Lehrer: We should clarify, I guess, that this doesn't just cover police officers, but all first responders, is that correct?

Candice Ferrette: That's right. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: The focus is on police and medics?

Candice Ferrette: If you actually read the bill, police are definitely singled out.

Brian Lehrer: Is there any indication from your reporting that this is being nationally coordinated by police unions and Nassau County is being used as the tip of the spear because they think it's a friendly political environment to set this precedent and then we'll see bills like this all over the country?

Candice Ferrette: That's not a bad theory. I have not found evidence during the course of my reporting yet, but it's certainly a very good lead. Just for background, Nassau is a changing County for sure, especially during the pandemic, but historically it has very strong Republican pockets. It also is on Long Island. Newsday has done great work in highlighting the fact that we're very slow to get police cams, body cams. Here on Long Island, Nassau is definitely one of those holdouts. They'll finally have a program implemented, I think by the fall. I would not dispute that theory.

Brian Lehrer: I see that the 19 members of the county legislature are majority Republican, but that the bill was sponsored by one of the Democrats.

Candice Ferrette: It was sponsored by an independent who caucuses with the Democrats. His name is Legislator Josh Lafazan. He represents a district that covers the Syosset area more on the north shore. Pretty affolant even for Nassau County standards, relatively white with an influx of Asian residents or Asian-Americans I should say. I think that there was a lot of discussion within the caucus about this, and certainly a lot of opposition within the caucus, I will say.

Brian Lehrer: Irene in Valley Stream was also at the state legislature hearing on Monday night. Irene, thanks for calling in, you're on WNYC.

Irene: Yes. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, I attended on Monday and I also attended many of the protests that took place on Long Island in the summer and spring of 2020. Nassau County has never seen anything like that before, had never seen anything like that before. Large turnouts, people showed up day after day after day.

As you've mentioned, they were peaceful, but I'm sure for the police officers that were moderating them and for other members in the community, they were inconvenient and they were irksome. I think this is about suppressing the free speech of people with whom you disagree. If you don't believe in freedom of expression for everybody, then you don't believe in it.

My experience with the police at these protests were mostly positive or neutral, but there started to have Nassau County Police photographers showing up at the protest and just taking photographs of the people that were there. When I called Nassau County Police, and I asked why the police were photographing and videotaping American citizens who were peacefully protesting, I was told that Nassau County doesn't photograph protestors.

I have documented evidence that this is what they were doing. It was just an intimidation tactic. At one point we were told that if we didn't get out of the street, we would be subject to arrest. Many of us went up on the sidewalk and we were told that because we went on the sidewalk we were subject to arrest for blocking pedestrian traffic.

Brian Lehrer: Irene, I'm going to leave it there so I can get some other folks on in our remaining time, but thank you for that story and for describing the scene at the hearing on Monday night. This is WNYC, FM, HD, and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are in New York and New Jersey public radio, a few minutes left with Newsday politics reporter Candace Ferrette on the bill that passed the Nassau County legislature on Monday night, that would allow police officers to sue individual protestors for damages for not just physical, but also verbal abuse. I want to take Virginia in Minneapolis next because Minneapolis, of course, very relevant to when we're talking about police behavior and protestors in the last two years. Virginia, you're on WNYC, hello from New York.

Virginia: Hello Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love your show. I cannot believe that in terms of police reform, that this is the action that Nassau County wants to take. I would say, look inward Nassau Police Department, if you are experiencing these types of resistance from protesters, would it be necessary to do an audit of how many individuals of color they're actually prosecuting, unlawfully detaining? I would say it would be a better investment in moving forward to look at that as a tactic, instead of why are these protestors protesting against the police, and why is there so much resistance on their end? It's a national movement and I think that in terms of their approach, it is very tone-deaf.

Brian Lehrer: Candice, the question that I would take out of Virginia's call is how this flips what we're used to on its head the Nassau County Police Department is trying to prosecute bias against those protesting bias as Virginia has it. The other way that this is flipped is that what we've been debating as a country is whether police officers should lose their so-called qualified immunity and be able to be sued as individuals for misbehavior on their part and now the police are flipping that and talking about suing individual protestors for what would be deemed misbehavior on their part. Is this a sarcastic response to the qualified immunity debate?

Candice Ferrette: It could definitely be characterized as a response. Yes, you're right it definitely runs counter to a lot of the national discussion at this moment. I will say that when you do read the bill, the way it is framed the intention is to protect officers because officers protect our civil liberty. If you protect the officer during a protest, you are then protecting everybody's civil liberties because they need to control the crowd or make sure everybody doesn't walk in the street and get hit by a car, those kinds of things. Just for balance, I want to be able to point that out. Yes, go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Allie, you're on WNYC.

Allie: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I wanted to just already point out as Legislator DeRiggi-Whitton so condescendingly pointed out during that legislative hearing that the full legislature already voted in 2019 to make first responders a protected class. This bill is more of given the opportunity to civilly sue against the protester, which was really interesting because everybody at that legislative hearing the other day was strictly opposed to the bill. There were over 70 speakers, 5, 6 hours of testimony. I just think it's actually interesting because, nothing against Candice, but the Newsday article that was printed the next day, had a picture of those people and identified them as pro-police.

There is some kind of misconstrued understanding of what's going on and even respond to Virginia, the bill was not even research-based, there's no data behind it, which was a huge red flag that people brought up on Monday and nobody had an answer for that. In addition to the fact that Nassau County Police, even though they won't admit it, their own data numbers show that for every 1 white person that gets arrested, 5.3 Black people and I believe it's 2.3 or 2 for every 1 white person, 2 Hispanic or Latino people, interacts with the police.

There is a clear issue of bias in our county and the fact that an independent caucusing with the Democrats could even come up and have a support from its fellow Democrats is just disgusting. That's just my opinion on what happened.

Brian Lehrer: Then we're just about out of time. I'm also curious if there are any tea leaves on whether County Executive Laura Curran is going to sign or veto this bill.

Candice Ferrette: I appreciate you pointing out that photo actually, we ran a correction. The caption was incorrect on that photo. The people in the photo who spoke at the podium, who were white, were speaking against the bill. I want to clarify for the record, the only people at that meeting on Monday night, I believe, who spoke in favor of the bill were the presidents of three of the large police unions. It's only law enforcement at that meeting who spoke in favor. You are correct there were over 60 people who took to the podium.

With regards to whether or not Laura Curran vetoes the bill, she has 30 days. I don't know that it is necessarily in her best interest to veto it right away or sign it right away. She is up for reelection. I know that the Attorney General's opinion will weigh heavily on her next step. If she does veto it, it goes back to the legislature which you mentioned earlier is controlled by the Republicans and they would need a supermajority in order to override the veto, which they might get unless there are Democrats that will flip their vote.

Brian Lehrer: We will follow this story. Candice Ferrette, politics reporter for Newsday, thank you so much for coming on today.

Candice Ferrette: Thanks a lot, Brian.

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