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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now, Brooklyn and Queens Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, who was also Chair of the House Democratic Caucus, one of the top House leadership roles under Speaker Nancy Pelosi, that he was elected to by all the House Democrats. Congressman Jeffries, always appreciate it. Welcome back to WNYC.

Hakeem Jeffries: Good morning, Brian, great to be on with you.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get into some of the national issues that you're involved with right now, like this intense moment for voting rights and some other things, we just had Eric Adams on in our last segment, and you had endorsed Maya Wiley in the mayoral primary. Now that we're not in primary campaign mode, how do you see working with Adams if he's elected mayor, on things you already agree on, and what kinds of policy differences might you have to bridge?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, I'm looking forward to working with Borough President Adams, who I expect will be the next mayor of the city of New York. We have a long history of a working relationship. We actually came into the state legislature together in 2006, him in the State Senate, myself in the state assembly, partnered on a whole host of legislative matters, including decisive action that we took to begin the process of dismantling stop and frisk.

I think that Eric cares about the city, he ran a great campaign, very disciplined, state-on message attracted working-class support in black and Latino neighborhoods out of Borough white ethnic neighborhoods, it's phenomenal coalition to go into office with, and I'm certainly looking forward to partnering with him. I think the whole New York delegation, regardless of where we may have been during the primary is going to stand with Eric as the next mayor.

Brian Lehrer: I think directly from here, he was gone to a joint event with Senator Gillibrand as she reintroduces gun trafficking legislation that she's introduced every year for a decade and never goes anywhere because of Republican opposition. I'm curious to get your take on if you think that with the Republicans focus on gun crime, they're willing to do something about gun trafficking right now and get enough votes for that bill in the Senate as well, of course, you don't need them in the house. Or if they're just going to fall back on the old line of gun trafficking doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, Republicans on this issue, in particular, are all talk and no action, and it's horrific. Hopefully, we'll see a handful of Republicans in the Senate agree to try to come together and find common ground on some of the bills that we've already sent over to the Senate from the House of Representatives. Including HRA universal criminal background check legislation that had bipartisan support in the house, a handful of House Republicans did support it.

It would require that anyone purchasing a weapon in the United States of America have to go through a criminal background check, not just at a gun store, but at gun shows, which are traveling events that take place where guns are sold, and there's no background check requirement that is applicable to them. That's outrageous, and of course, is an increasingly high number of guns that are now sold over the internet, and background checks don't apply there. The problem is, these loopholes enable people to purchase weapons, and then they make their way often into cities like ours in New York, where they fall into the hands of individuals who will do harm.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go on to voting rights. Obviously, this is a very complicated and fraught moment for voting rights. It could be the thing that the Senate Democrats are willing to end the filibuster over and hold her in part. You have Democrats from the Texas Legislature holding up in DC to avoid a quorum on restrictive legislation back in Austin. Let's start with Texas, have you met with that delegation?

Hakeem Jeffries: I have not met with the delegation yet, the house wasn't in session last week upon their arrival, but it's my expectation that I'll have an opportunity to meet with several of them who remain in town this week. I'm looking forward to having that conversation. At the end of the day, if America is truly going to continue to be a democracy, then we need to make it easier to vote not harder. Unfortunately, that's what we're seeing all across the country with an explosion of a voter suppression epidemic in state after state after state.

You would think that some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, after seeing what happened on January 6, a violent insurrection and attack on the Capitol with democracy hanging in the balance, would run toward democracy, not run away from it. Unfortunately, for many of them, denying people the ability to vote, often in communities of color, or low-income individuals, or young people or seniors in certain communities, is viewed as an electoral strategy necessary for Republicans to succeed politically. That's shameful. We're going to have to do everything possible, including reforming the filibuster rule, if necessary, in order to get the For the People Act H.R. 1, and John Robert Lewis Voter Empowerment Act H.R. 4 over the finish line.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think about the Joe Manchin compromise bill, that just to say a few of the provisions would ensure 15 days of early voting. It would make election day itself a national holiday, but as offers to the Republicans, it would ban same-day voter registration. It would mandate a national voter ID, and it would not require states to offer absentee ballots on demand, states could require certain reasons for voting absentee if they choose? Would you vote for that?

Hakeem Jeffries: I have to look at the precise details in terms of the totality of the bill but based on what is in the public domain and what you just described. Brian, it's an important step in the right direction, and if it's something that Stacey Abrams supports, certainly something that I would likely support as well. I know she has indicated her view that she thinks it is positively moving the ball in the right direction.

We just can't allow the status quo to exist. The status quo right now is in Georgia, or as endeavoring to do in Texas, what they've done in places like Florida, is to make it easier to get guns and harder to vote. We should be doing the exact opposite because Congress has the ability to step in. We need to step in.

Brian Lehrer: Do you understand by the way, how Manchin's voter ID proposal would work? I know it certainly did make national news when Stacey Abrams said on television that she would be open to that with her leadership on voting rights. Would it disenfranchise people unacceptably? Are there ways to do a national voter ID that would and that wouldn't, in your opinion, have you looked into that?

Hakeem Jeffries: Yes, I haven't looked into it with any great detail at the moment. However, I do think that there is space for an ID requirement as long as it is not discriminatory because what we've seen in many states, is that, for instance, using a college identification, even if it's from a State University, is not acceptable. But if you carry a gun, and you have an ID as a gun owner, that is acceptable. That's obvious bias with legislators trying to pick and choose who they think are favorable voters, and who they think they want to disfavor. If there is a way to establish an identification requirement that's uniform across the country, and I know most voters, including Democrats do support some form of identification, as long as it's not discriminatory, then I think, perhaps is room to deal with this issue in the form of a revised H.R. 1 bill.

Brian Lehrer: One more thing on voter id because another one of the points of contention in the Texas bills is a voter ID requirement that's in one of those bills for absentee ballots, that would require not just a signature, but a driver's license number or the last four digits of your social security number. Republicans say a signature on an envelope is pretty flimsy as a form of identification. They don't really check how you cross your T's compared to your original registration form and things like that. Do you think that that particularly disenfranchises people? Is that one of the things from the Texas law as proposed that you most object to?

Hakeem Jeffries: That is a problematic provision within the Texas law but there's a parade of horribles that are contained in the proposed Texas legislation as well as in many of the other bills that are working their way through state legislative bodies across the country. Here's the thing, voter fraud is very rare. It's almost non-existent. In fact, in the cases where it does exist, that have been documented including in places like Pennsylvania a handful of instances, it's usually people who actually supported President Trump and we're endeavoring to stack his vote total not supporters of Joe Biden.

This whole notion of massive and widespread voter fraud is a fiction, it's a fantasy, it's a fraud. It was created to try to lift up this fake narrative the big lie by former President Trump and his sick offense that the election was stolen and that Donald Trump should be the rightful president. No, Joe Biden is the President of the United States of America because he decisively won the most secure election in American history. I think it's also important, Brian to make sure we properly continue to frame the narrative that the whole justification for some of these laws that are working their way through parts of the country. The ghosts of Jim Crow are alive and well now in many parts of America. The whole justification is a fiction. I think as Democrats we need to continue to lift that up as well.

Brian Lehrer: On that fiction when we come back from a break, I want to ask you about the January 6th investigation committee that Speaker Pelosi is setting up. If you've seen the new book yet by Washington Post reporters Phillip Rocker and Kara Laning they're going to be on the show on Wednesday. Some of these passages are so chilling about Vice-President Pence not wanting to get into a Secret Service limo that was sent for him because he was afraid he wouldn't be allowed by Trump to come back and finish the work of certifying the election that night.

We'll get Congressman Hakeem Jeffries take on that. When we continue in a minute we can also take a few phone calls for him on any of the things that we're talking about or other things related to his job in Congress 646- 435-7280 or tweet a question at Brian Lehrer, we continue after this. [music]

Brian Lehrer and WNYC with Brooklyn and Queens Congressmen and Chair of the House Democratic Caucus Hakeem Jeffries. We can take a few phone calls for him at 646-435-7280. Congressman, the January 6th Investigation Committee that Speaker Pelosi is setting up. It's reported that the Republicans may appoint some of the most hard-line pro-Trumpers to that committee like maybe Marjorie Taylor Green or Jim Jordan people like that though we don't know yet. Would it not be legitimate for the Republicans to put strong advocates for their party on the committee since the Speaker has appointed Democrats seen as very partisan in this regard like Adam Schiff who was an impeachment manager?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, we'll see what Kevin McCarthy decides to do. He probably received instructions the other day when he went and bend the knee again to Donald Trump and visited him I guess in Bedminster to ask him his permission for who he was intending to appoint to the commission. I don't expect that they're going to be responsible appointments but at the end of the day, I have great confidence in Chairman Bennie Thompson and the other members of the committee including Liz Cheney that they going to get to the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in terms of what happened on January 6th, why it happened.

Perhaps most importantly laying out a pathway as to how we prevent a violent insurrection and attack on our democracy from ever happening again. I know that the majority members of the committee and Congresswoman Cheney are going to take this effort seriously. They'll be sober in their approach anchored in substance and I think it's going to be an important thing. We had a truth-finding mission in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor which was an attack on our country. We had a truth-finding commission in the aftermath of September 11th another attack on our city in our country. It's absolutely the thing to do and I'm looking forward to the start of the hearings in about a week or so.

Brian Lehrer: As law enforcement arrests hundreds of people in connection with January 6th and does all those investigations and the Capitol police does its own debrief and I think there are others. Are there specific unanswered questions that you think Congress this committee can uniquely answer?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well one of the things that I think will be important is to try to get a sense of what was happening at the White House. What was happening with former President Trump, what instructions were given to the Pentagon as it relates to signing off on the requests for the DC National Guard to be deployed. Everyone could see the Capitol was being overrun yet it took hours for the DC National Guard apparently to be authorized and then subsequently deployed. I also expect that there will be a real concerted effort to try to get to the bottom of whether there was pre-planning that occurred perhaps including some who are closely affiliated with former President Trump.

In terms of what was going to happen in the aftermath of the rally and the direction to March on the Capitol. We'll need to know I think for the good of healing and for the good of preventing something like this from ever happening again. Everything that may have been involved in terms of the pre-planning of what was unleashed.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting that some of the individual rioters in their criminal chargers are using a Trump told me to do it defense. That's another arena where that'll get debated. Have you seen the new book yet by Washington Post reporters Phillip Rocker and Kara Laning as I mentioned they'll be on Wednesday show here to talk about it. Some of the reporting that they have on January 6th is really chilling about Vice-President Pence not wanting to get into a Secret Service limo that was sent for him because he was afraid he wouldn't be allowed by Trump to come back to finish the work of certifying the election, or the joint chiefs of staff Chairman General Milly worrying about Trump trying to get factions of the armed forces to stage an actual coup.

Hakeem Jeffries: It's very chilling, I have not. I look forward to the discussion on Wednesday. I have heard some excerpts from the book and have followed it closely. I think the January 6th Select Committee investigation hopefully is going to bring to life many of these details that are now starting to be publicly reported. I think we were very close to losing our democracy on January 6th. It's just the reality of the situation. I was there on the floor of the House of Representatives while it was all unfolding and there was an attempt to overthrow the government to stop the Congress from completing our constitutional responsibilities to certify the election so that Joe Biden could be sworn in as the 46 President of the United States of America.

We know that there were rioters who were in the Capitol to assassinate the Speaker, hang Mike Pence, and hunt down members of Congress. In terms of some the reporting about Mike Pence's view, he was absolutely correct. I commend him for staying even though it presented some risks to himself and to his family. We were determined after we had been brought to a secure location as members of Congress that we were going to go back to the floor that night to complete our work. To certify the election to make it clear that mob rule would not prevail that the rule of law would prevail and democracy would continue.

Brian Lehrer: Those chilling scenarios are from descriptions of the book. We'll hear if they're accurate when we speak to- I'm not sure it's one author of both authors on Wednesday show but listeners that'll be coming up. Tom and Seab you're on WNYC with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. Hi Tom?

Tom: Good morning. Thanks for taking my call, Mr. Jeffries. I have to commend you that you're working for free and fair elections for everyone, but the result has to be a candidate or an elected official. It's actually gone to help the average person, the poor person, the lower-middle-class person, everyone. I wonder how you square that desire with your fundraising for Carolyn Maloney, your active opposition to the far left candidates like AOC, and others like her

Brian Lehrer: Let me give the listeners a little bit of news context for this. Some of you may have seen a Washington post article the other day, headline Democratic tension surface as house incumbents plan defense against far-left primary challengers. The article starts as, I'm sure congressmen by citing you, and two other colleagues House incumbents, setting up "potential showdowns with a band of younger and more liberal House members, such as Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, to fend off primary challenges." How should our listeners those who are sympathetic, to a more progressive Congress, hear that and your participation in that?

Brian Lehrer: Well, I have a tremendous amount of respect for every single member of the House Democratic Caucus, whether that's representative Ocasio-Cortez, Representative, Josh Gottheimer all points in between. I think the strength of the House Democratic Caucus is that we are diverse in so many different ways, race and religion, and region and life experience, gender, sexual orientation, and ideology. We have very progressive members, moderate centrist members, as well as members of the Blue Dog Caucus.

That's what makes the House Democratic Caucus majority. As the chair of the House Democratic Caucus, certainly, I look forward to continuing to be supportive of every single member. Yes, it doesn't include Carolyn Maloney, who is a long-standing member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and I think has championed the whole wide variety of issues and I believe, is a supporter of things like Medicare for all and the Green New Deal. I'm just not clear what the listener respectfully was making reference to in terms of, positions that she or others may be taking.

I do think, that, Caucus working closely with President Biden, and Senate Democrats led by Chuck Schumer has done some extraordinary things for everyday Americans, including most recently, rolling out the child tax credit payments, which is going to be transformational. It will help working families, low-income families, middle-class families. More than 150,000 children in the district that I represent are going to benefit from the expanded and improved child tax credit. It's going to lift thousands of children out of the communities that I represent, out of deep poverty, and set them on a pathway to being able to more robustly experience the American dream. That's the word?

Brian Lehrer: Why would you take it on yourself as chairman of the House Democratic Caucus, to put your thumb on the scale for an incumbent who maybe is being challenged by an AOC-type challenger in a Democratic primary, if particular differences surface between them?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, the Congressional Progressive Caucus Political Action Committee has supported Carolyn Maloney in this race. They've endorsed her, Brian in this race.

Brian Lehrer: Right but beyond [crosstalk]. The post makes it sound like-

Hakeem Jeffries: What I'm saying is I'm aligned with the Congressional Progressive Caucus Political Action Committee in supporting Carolyn Maloney's reelection.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. She's one of your New York city colleagues, but the Washington Post article makes it sound like it's a broader national effort to protect incumbents from more left-leaning primary challenges.

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, that was their framing, but I'm going to support incumbents who were doing their job and trying to communicate with the people that they represent their case for two-year term. Listen, at the end of the day, primaries are an important part of our democracy and the House at the end of the day is all about renewal. Primaries, I think, should be welcome. I've participated in primaries myself as a candidate. The voters have to decide whether individual members of Congress are entitled to having their two-year employment contracts renewed.

I'm also not going to shy away from, publicly expressing support for individuals who I believe I'm serving with, who were doing a good job. Who have helped advance policies that I think are improving the lives of the American people, whether that's the American rescue plan or fighting for the American families planning the American jobs plant either. Because I think that is the right thing to do certainly as chair of the House Democratic Caucus.

Brian Lehrer: Jose and Rosedale in Queens. You're on WNYC with Congressman Jeffries. Hi Jose.

Jose: Hi, good morning, Brian, and good morning, Congressman. I just wanted you to know that this is one of my favorite programs.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much.

Jose: You're welcome. Now, Congressmen, what are the positions of you on the Black Congressional Caucus on the progressive wing of the Democratic Party in regards to Haiti? You should know the history of Haiti and what Haiti has meant to us as African people. Now, this continuous cycle of pain that Haiti is going through, and there's talk about taking US troops into Haiti again, to dominate and to control, invade that country, I want to know how you feel about it.

What are you doing? What are your plans to lift Haiti out of the grass, but off the US controls, and also, how do you feel about this Diabolic call, this diabolical embargo that has been on this country Cuba for so many years that won't allow it to breathe. What are the [unintelligible 00:26:44] I've not heard anything from Black Congressional Caucus.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Jose, thank you very much. We've got about a minute left in the segment. I'll have to say, and we're going to be talking explicitly about the Cuba situation in our next hour. Congressmen, what about Haiti?

Hakeem Jeffries: Well, thank you so much, Jose. I agree that we've got to do better by the people of Haiti. The people of Haiti are strong and good and resilient, and they deserve much better than what they've received. Going all the way back to 1804. I believe it was a concerted effort by many in the colonial world to punish the people of Haiti for the success of the Haitian revolution. It is important for all of us to know our history and heroes like, Tucson [unintelligible 00:27:35] and J.J Dessaline and what Haiti's Revolution meant, for people of African descent as the first free Black Republic in the Western hemisphere.

Of course I'm proud to represent one of the largest Haitian-American communities within any congressional district in the nation. The Congressional Black Caucus is engaged, cares about the people of Haiti. Is going to work closely with the Biden administration to try to stabilize the situation, make sure that there is a functional government. That resources are there to provide for the health, the safety and the economic wellbeing of the Haitian people.

Brian Lehrer: I guess we could always get a good debate going over, whether sending US troops in a circumstance like this is an act of occupation as the caller has it or an active aid. Do you have an opinion?

Hakeem Jeffries: I'd be reluctant to send US troops. I don't think that there's a clear, desire amongst the Haitian people for that. There is a clear desire amongst the Haitian people for peace and stability and an end to political violence and rampant violence. We've got to work with them to bring that about, but I would agree with the Biden administration that US troops at this moment, is not the right step forward for the country and for the Haitian people.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, representing parts of Brooklyn and Queens and Chair of the House Democratic Caucus. We always appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Hakeem Jeffries: Thanks so much, Brian.

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