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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. It's an interesting moment to be Gregory Meeks from Southeast Queens to the Poland-Ukraine border. The 24-year congressman who will join us in just a minute is from Southeast Queens as is Mayor Eric Adams and as is City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams. Meeks is from the new epicenter of power in New York City. As a member of Congress, he was elevated this term to the position of chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Among his recent duties, that visit to near the warzone, the Poland-Ukraine border. This is all happening in an election year too when Meeks' Democratic Party is trying to hold their House and Senate majorities amid rising inflation and rising crime, but also a soaring job market and a pandemic that's receding, at least for now, under the Democrats' vaccination and other public health experts efforts, only sometimes with bipartisan support. It's an interesting time to be Congressman Gregory Meeks, who joins me now. Congressman, thanks for some time today with so much happening right now. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Gregory Meeks: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

Brian: Can you start by telling us about your trip to the border area? When exactly were you there and what specifically did you go to observe?

Congressman Meeks: I was there just about a week ago. In fact, I returned a week ago, Monday. It was a visit to Poland as you said to support the defensive military efforts for Ukraine. I tried to see what we could do to help alleviate some of the humanitarian crises there. We visited the border to see exactly what was happening at the border and wanted to leave a loud and clear message that the United States Congress, in a bipartisan way, was a bipartisan delegation, stands with our NATO allies. We had several meetings, beginning with the Polish foreign minister. We met with governors of both the Polish and Ukrainian border regions right in the middle of the borders of the two countries. We met with Ukrainian refugees. We met with the Airborne-

[phone ringing]

Congressman Meeks: -District 82, the Airborne--

Brian: Nice ringtone, but you should ignore it.

Congressman Meeks: We met with the Airborne Division 82, Polish volunteers, local civic leaders, Secretary Blinken, even the UNHCR High Commissioner, and, of course, US embassy staff from both Kyiv and Warsaw. It was a very timely and impactful trip that we made and highly emotional for me, I think the rest of the delegation, to see the number of refugees that were coming across the border, primarily women and children, who's hungry, cold, did not know what their future will be.

Many leaving their husbands and fathers at the border because it was only basically women and children crossing. Men between the ages of 18 and 60 could not cross. You saw a few elderly men. That was the only one that crossed over. That say, it was hard to see, bringing many of us to tears. The flipside of that is the Polish people, many of them coming to volunteer, cooking food, and having blankets and toys and other things for people that was crossing the border.

Some offering the new immigrants coming across, new refugees, I should say, coming across, the opportunity to stay at their homes, trying to do what they could, but just overwhelmed. When we arrived, they told me there was 700,000 individuals who had crossed the border. Just two, three days later when we were leaving, they were up to 1.3. This is the fastest number of refugees taking place in Europe since World War II and that's devastating.

Brian: Right, 1.3 million refugees at that point and it's probably significantly more than that already. Let me follow up on a couple of things that you said in that answer. One was that your trip was intended in part to reaffirm that the US will stand with Poland as a NATO ally. I want to come back to the refugees and the US role and potentially taking people in and even compare that to some of the other refugee situations in the world, where it's so controversial in this country about taking people in. On standing with Poland, we've seen the Russian airstrikes in recent days come ever closer to the Poland-Ukraine border. Do you have any reason to believe that Russia intends to attack inside Poland, and what do you think the proper US response should be if that happens?

Congressman Meeks: It's clear that Vladimir Putin is getting more desperate every day. That is absolutely clear. As a result, he's trying to escalate. Should he do anything that's crossing that Poland border or any of our NATO allies, that is consequences I don't think that he wants to see. That would invoke Article 5 of the NATO treaty, which then basically, as the president has said, the United States has pledged to protect every inch of NATO soil, every inch. Crossing into Poland, any other country in the Baltics, any other fellow NATO nation, I think would reap Putin consequences that he really doesn't want to see because we will defend every inch of NATO land.

Brian: By the way, did I see this correctly online that you are a member of the House Baltics Caucus? How does a congressman from Southeast Queens get interested in that? What do you do as a member of the House Baltics Caucus? For people who don't know, the Baltic republics of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia were part of the Soviet Union back in the Soviet era. They are independent republics now and they are NATO members. What got you interested in this? How much do you fear or not fear that as Putin tries to recreate the old Soviet Union by going into Ukraine, that next might be these Baltic republics, which are NATO members?

Congressman Meeks: Well, you can't help if you're on the foreign affairs committee to be involved in several different caucuses because, from my viewpoint, the world has gotten so much smaller than it was 15, 20, 30 years ago. We need to be more interconnected with the rest of the world. When you talk about our European allies who share the same values, here are independent nations who have decided through their own struggles and revolutions that they want to be democratic institutions.

I think that it is important for those of us in the United States to make sure that we are locked in with our European and, particularly, our NATO allies because NATO is a defensive organization to defend them and we defend one another in times of trouble. Fortunately, since World War II, there's been peace in Europe. We've not had to institute anything in regards to Article 5 other than when the United States was attacked in 2001.

For me, being on the committee and once being the lead Democrat on the European subcommittee, I got integrally involved in the Baltics and various areas with our allies in Europe and in NATO. I'm also a part of the NATO parliamentarian assembly, which is important in having dialogue and conversation with our allies and other parliaments that's in NATO is tremendously important. That's why I know it's important for us to keep our word to defend and protect our NATO allies as we all have agreed upon.

Brian: What's the word on Putin's intentions toward the Baltics? Anything?

Congressman Meeks: Well, you really don't know what Putin is going to do. You know that you can't even trust his word. His word is no good. He said that he had no intentions on invading Ukraine, but he did and he has. He has said that, at times, there was going to be a safe passageway. Each time, that has been violated. I can tell you that all we can do at this point is to continue to send a strong message to Putin that it would be, severely, a huge error on his part to bomb or to attack or to retaliate against any NATO ally.

Brian: My guest is Congressman Gregory Meeks, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee from Queens. We'll also talk about some New York City stuff as we go. Listeners, your questions or comments for the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Gregory Meeks, 212-433-WNYC, on Ukraine or anything else. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Congressman, I see multiple news organizations reporting now that President Zelenskyy will address members of Congress on Wednesday morning. I assume that it'll be a virtual address like he addressed the British Parliament virtually the other day from wherever he is. What are you expecting? First of all, can you confirm that?

I imagine President Zelenskyy will continue lobbying for a no-fly zone, which the United States so far is saying no to or allowing Polish MIG fighters to fly out of the US-NATO airbase in Germany, which the US is also saying no to. It doesn't actually become a party to the war in a direct military confrontation sense, but do you know about Zelenskyy speaking to Congress on Wednesday? Is that happening? What do you expect to hear from him?

Congressman Meeks: Yes, let me say, as you've indicated, I was in Poland when he spoke to members of Congress previously. I think it was last Saturday, While we were in Poland, there was a broad conversation he had with members. He is doing another virtual conversation with members of Congress as you've correctly stated on Wednesday. One of the things that I expect him to say and to continue to say that, A, he'll say thank you for all of the offensive weapons that we've sent. As you know, another $200 million is going out.

The president just announced that yesterday. We just passed a bill of close to $14 billion for both defensive lethal weapons to Ukraine as well as the help with humanitarian relief. You know that we have continually and from my visit to Poland and talking to General Donahue that as soon as the items get in, they're getting out and getting into the hands of Ukrainian soldiers so that they can fight back. I expect that President Zelenskyy, who I met with, I was in Ukraine about five, six days before the brutal assault that Putin started to-

Brian: Oh, I didn't know about that trip.

Congressman Meeks: -start upon Ukraine and I had a chance to meet with President Zelenskyy in both trips with bipartisan delegations. He was clearly resolved that the Ukrainian people will fight themselves. They did not need any American troops on the ground or boots on the ground. They just needed the equipment that they wanted, that they needed to defend themselves.

I expect him to still say the same message. The issue will come up in regards to a no-fly zone. I'm sure that he's concerned about the air bombardment that he has been receiving and the ability to defend themselves by bringing some of those Russian planes down. They've knocked some of them down. There's been a big question with reference to the jets, the MiGs coming from Poland.

The fact of the matter is I thought, while in Poland and talking to Secretary Blinken and a few others, that there was a deal to be done and we were close to getting a deal done. Now, I understand the president's decision in regards to the MiGs. Let me be clear. I thought the agreement was that what the Poles were asking that if they sent or gave MiGs to Ukrainians that the United States would backfill those planes with our own F-16s.

Brian: I should say that Secretary Blinken himself was on TV shows, some of the Sunday talk shows a week ago yesterday, indicating the same thing that we were going to do that and then something changed to say no.

Congressman Meeks: Yes, the agreement was that the Ukrainian pilots would come to Poland and fly the jets back because there would not be any United States pilots flying them there nor any Polish pilots, so no one from NATO would do it. What changed afterwards, and there's various reasons, I think that the Poles changed a bit saying that they did not want the planes to leave from Polish soil, that they would be willing to take the planes to Germany and give them to the United States, put in the United States in the position of being the middleman, put the United States in to either fly or hand them over to the Ukrainians.

In this, the president fears and a number of us fear that that would only escalate things as well as possibly start, as the president said at our caucus, our issues conference, anything that we touch could create World War III. Because if, in fact, we were then flying those planes over to give it to the Poles or if a plane was attacked over NATO territory in that regard, then Article 5 would kick in. For all the respects, we then would be in war.

Brian: Poland doesn't want to be seen by Russia as a direct party to the war by having the planes fly from there. The US doesn't want to be seen as a direct party to the war by having the planes first move to this US airbase in Germany and then flying into Ukraine from there, and there it's stuck. We have a caller coming in on the question of the planes. Let's take that for you. Fred in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Queens Congressman Gregory Meeks, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Hi, Fred.

Fred: Hi, how are you doing? Regarding this MiG-29 situation, I'm just trying to see a comparison and I would like to see the Congressman's-- How do you think Putin thinks about our administration? If Poland was going to send these MiG-29s and we back down because we didn't want to be in direct confrontation, yet another NATO member, Turkey has been supplying armed drones, including laser-guided missiles, to Ukraine to fight the Russians.

There doesn't seem to be a retaliation for that. How does Putin think about the United States when we are not able to stand up in that way? I would have thought that we should have had these MiG-29s out there. What does the Congressman think? What goes in Putin's mind right now of our backing down after Secretary Blinken said we were going to do it?

Brian: Thank you, Fred. Congressman?

Congressman Meeks: I would answer like this. Putin is panicking now because of all that we've sent to Ukraine for them to defend themselves, all of the tanks that have been destroyed, and a number of planes have been destroyed. The fact of the matter is there are other items that we are looking to give to Ukraine that we'll be able to reach the planes. Part of the problem with some of the equipment that they have is the planes are now flying higher. You need the artillery to defend yourself that can hit the planes at a higher altitude.

I think that there's something that's in process there that then does not technically break the guidelines of NATO actually being involved as far as physical manufacturing. Not manufacturing, physically carrying it over like the Turkish. What they do, they are giving some of the equipment as we have been, and we have been in the forefront of organizing countries around the world to get certain materials to the Ukrainians. To be clear, the only ones that are fighting the war thus far is the Ukrainians themselves.

They have said they don't want Turkish soldiers or any NATO boots on the ground. We give them the resources that they need and they are able then to utilize their army to fight this war. Putin realizes it and that's why it's been day-- I think it's 18 and 19 now, where he thought as well as some of our intelligence thought initially that it would only take three days to overwhelm them. While we have these crucial sanctions, that's also on them that's crushing and hurting the people and the economy in a devastating way.

The fighting is really still taking place. I would add that nothing is off the table. For me, I want to make sure and they know that nothing is off the table. Our Department of Defense is still looking and working on the best way that we could help the Ukrainians to defend their skies. There are some things that I know that's taking place that, as of this moment, are classified. We are focused also in trying to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to help Ukraine defend its skies, but there's mechanisms of which to get it done.

Brian: Daniel in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Congressman Gregory Meeks. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Oh, hi.

Congressman Meeks: Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Brian, are you there?

Brian: I'm here. You want to mention a relevant holiday, don't you?

Daniel: Yes. On Friday, it was the Lithuanian Independence Day from the Russians. I know that the folks over there are feeling very nervous about what was happening south of Belarus, just south of their own borders. It's a nervous time for Lithuanians. I know that they're NATO members, but they're feeling it.

Brian: Are you hearing anything from anybody over there in particular?

Daniel: Not yet, no, just trying to keep an eye on the news. I was a Peace Corps volunteer over there for a couple of years and they were a very proud nation, proud of their culture and language. I can definitely feel that a similar sort of thing is coming from the Ukraine.

Brian: Daniel, thank you very much. You have Jenny in Manhattan. You're on WNYC. Hi, Jenny.

Jenny: Hi, I have a question for Congressman Meeks. Because there have been reports that people of color that are stranded in Ukraine are basically being turned away at the border, being told Ukrainians only that they cannot pass through. I'm just wondering if there are any initiatives in place to prevent that. Also, since I am originally from the Belarus-Ukraine border, I'm wondering if Congressman Meeks thinks that there's going to be any spillover into Belarus. Thank you.

Brian: Thank you. Belarus in an interesting and difficult position in this. Belarus is more allied with Russia. For a while, it seemed like some of the refugees were being forced by Russia to go toward Belarus, which would not necessarily be a safe place for them. Congressman, what would you say about Belarus' role at all? Two, you have Jenny's question about the people of color, and we've seen those reports too and talked about them on the show, who may not be white European Ukrainians being denied access or questioned in different ways as they try to leave the country.

Congressman Meeks: I made sure, being the first African American to chair the House Foreign Affairs Committee, of course, those allegations of some discrimination crossing the borders was very much of concern to me. On my visit or while I was on the visit to Poland, of course, I addressed the issues with the Polish foreign minister as well as governors as I said on both sides of the Polish and Ukrainian border as well as with our own secretary of state, Tony Blinken.

What I found is that as far as the Polish border was concerned, the president of Poland issued a mandate of non-discrimination to each and every border guard that is being enforced. If there's not the problem of crossing, if you get to the border and you're crossing into Poland, you will not be stopped by anybody on the Poland side by order of the president. The issue, I think, that is of difficulty and what we've got to continue to work out and from what I'm hearing and some of the individuals we've talked to is on the Ukrainian side, especially now in the chaotic scene of getting on a train to come to the borders.

It seemed to have been a scenario where a number of individuals, students, or others of African descent or Asian descent were not allowed to get on the train and compelled to walk to the borders, which would take an additional five, six, seven days in the cold and lack of food, et cetera. Now, it was not by order of the Ukrainian government. What you have had is some individuals who are there who try to just get their family members on.

I'm told that, now, the individuals are now getting on the train, but it's chaotic for anybody to get on the train. Especially the only one that's coming through the borders is women and children and elderly men or others who may be infirmed. Even women are being held if they have any kind of medical background, they are not allowed to cross the borders either. There has been a focus on making sure that the incidents that I believed to have taken place are no longer taking place.

Now, it's harder for me to get a hand on what is going on on the Ukrainian side because, of course, America and Americans are not going there, but I know that from talking to members of the Ukrainian parliament that they too want to make sure that there's non-discrimination going on because they know that just plays into the hand of the Putin propaganda, who is trying to utilize whatever misinformation or disinformation he may get to the Russian people that try to say that this is why he's going into Russia saying, for example, that the Ukrainians are Nazis when, in fact, the president of Ukraine is a Jew. They're bombing certain sacred Jewish memorials there.

That issue we've been focused on, we're going to continue. Secretary Blinken has assured me, he will continue to have conversations wherever we see those incidences taking place. In regards to the issue of Belarus, look, I believe that, to a large degree, Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, he is very close to a co-conspirator as far as I'm concerned. I am very concerned if, in fact, the Russians are trying to compel any of the refugees into Belarus. What I believe that Putin has done already is committed war crimes. That's my personal belief. He is killing innocent human beings and then trying to divert them into Belarus, where they have further difficulty, is further evil actions on his part.

Brian: Let me ask you, what about the refugees and what the US is doing to accept any of them from Ukraine who are flooding mostly into Poland, into that zone you visited, that you described as such a humanitarian crisis? What's the US role in actually taking people in?

Congressman Meeks: I know that, in a bipartisan way, I've had a conversation with the lead Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. We are talking and other members are talking on setting up procedures, particularly where some of the refugees have family members or others that they know in the United States where they can come here to the United States. That's a conversation that is ongoing right now in Congress because we know that the borders of Poland and Romania and others are going to be and not all ready for. We've got to figure out ways that we can bring other refugees in various other countries, including the United States.

Brian: Is there a number? Should we be talking about taking in X number of refugees? We know that was such a debate during the Syrian refugee crisis, which, of course, is ongoing. When that was newer about a decade ago and President Obama was increasing the number of refugees by tens of thousands that the US was willing to accept, and then President Trump, who is, of course, so anti-migration to the United States in general, cut it way, way, way, way down. Should we be talking about numbers here?

Congressman Meeks: Well, I think that negotiations are going on because to get it done, we got to do this in a bipartisan way. For my part, it's got to be our fair share that we should be looking at. I think a number probably will be debated and looked at. That's part of the conversations that are ongoing now. We need to make sure that we do that and we have that debate and that conversation. I anticipate it to be ongoing this week.

Brian: You don't have a number that you're in favor of anything that you would state right now?

Congressman Meeks: No, because I'm not going to negotiate that over-

Brian: In the press.

Congressman Meeks: -radio, but I'm going to continue and talk to my colleagues and try to come up with something that we can all mutually agree upon.

Brian: One question by way of counterpoint to that and then I want to finish up with a couple of quick domestic issue questions before you go. I see that you also traveled as chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee to several countries in Africa recently. As you know, many of the world's refugees are from there as well, but we don't see them making the news as much in this country or promoting as much of it or prompting, I should say, as much of a national outpouring of support. I realize different situations are different, but do you see elements of racism in the US response pro-Ukrainian refugee as opposed to more skeptical about those from conflicts in Central Africa or maybe more relevant to this country from Syria and Yemen and Central America?

Congressman Meeks: I've always been an advocate for individuals in those conflicts to be able to come here. I was opposed to, of course, the restrictions that was placed on the number of refugees that came in via the Syria and other African conflicts. I think that there's a process. This is one of the reasons why I also believe that there should be-- and I've been a long advocate from the time that I've been in the United States Congress for immigration reform.

People are fleeing for their lives. We're supposed to be the land of the free, the home of the brave. We are a country of immigrants in that regard. I've long have been one to believe that we've not done our fair share. I urge and support a better and stronger policy of those that are fleeing from anywhere around the world for opportunities. There's procedures that are set up.

They should be allowed to come in and show that they are individuals who are fleeing for their lives. Our procedures should be open to give them that opportunity. Unfortunately, we can't get a number of the appropriate votes so that we can finally do a comprehensive immigration reform bill that we should also include in regards to how and who we allow in the country under refugee status.

Brian: I know we have only a couple of minutes left. Let me turn briefly to a domestic issue or two. My guest is Congressman Gregory Meeks from Southeast Queens. He's chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. I mentioned you're from Southeast Queens, the new epicenter of power in New York City with Mayor Adams and City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams, both coming from there as well. I wonder if you could talk briefly about how you see your district as having changed the most in the 24 years that you've been in Congress.

Congressman Meeks: The attention and the voices of the people of Southeast in Queens is being heard loudly and clearly because of this movement of the law firm, what I call the law firm of Adams & Adams. When you look at, for example, the $15 billion renovation of JFK Airport, making sure that that makes this the gateway to America but being inclusive of local businesses so that they can benefit from it, creating jobs and opportunities for minority and women-owned businesses and local-owned businesses to participate in that.

You look at the great rehabilitation of the oceanfront in the Rockaways and as well as on the oceanside and the bayside, what's happening there. Things are moving. You look at, finally, with the transportation infrastructure bill that was passed by Congress, now going in to help some of the problems that we've had for a long time dealing with flooding issue that we've had for a while.

For over 40 years, people were talking about the need for additional police precinct. There's now $100 million. This was confirmed and started with the de Blasio administration now on over to the Adams administration. That is happening now in Southeast in Queens. There is a lot of happenings. The strengthening of the educational facilities, particularly in regards to your college, that's happening.

The 5th Congressional District, as is Queens and Queens being the most diverse borough of the United States of America and my district, reflects the same. I wear one other hat as chair of the Queens County Democratic organization. All collectively working together, members of the city council, members of the state assembly and the state Senate, members of Congress, to try to make sure that the outer boroughs, in general, are getting the attention that it needs. The quality of life issues that have affected the outer boroughs for so long are being addressed.

Brian: Maybe among other things, you'll finally get some attention to the sewage problems after Hurricane Ida and the flooding of people's basements in your district put that into-

Congressman Meeks: That's the infrastructure bill.

Brian: -news and, therefore, onto city hall's agenda more than before, right?

Congressman Meeks: That is correct. That's why there's a substantial amount of money coming to the city of New York that will be coming into our districts from the bipartisan infrastructure bill that we passed in Congress. We're going to have the opportunities to do the things that are under the ground to prevent flooding from happening in a way that will be sustainable, that is done correctly, and that, hopefully, we'll also save lives as we deal with climate change.

Brian: Republicans will try to take the House on inflation and crime this year. How much do you think your constituents are feeling the effects of those and why would you argue that Democrats still have the most effective policies? I want to throw one specific policy question into this because I know that we're out of time. With the oil embargo on Russia contributing to gasoline prices, some Republicans are calling for a suspension of the federal gasoline tax, at least for a while. Do you support that and make your case? I don't think any Republican is going to win in Queens. From a national perspective, how do the Democrats win in this environment?

Congressman Meeks: Well, clearly, I think that what the American people will see and have seen that what has caused inflation, what has caused the higher gas taxes that are presenting itself is primarily two things. Number one, the pandemic. That really hurt when you talk about shutting everything down. No one being able to work around the world, not just here in the United States.

Supply chains virtually halted. People could not go to work, so the ports build up, and then supply and demand issues became high. That's what's driving it up. That's why the Democrats and right after the Eastern District work period and Memorial Day to pass, we're looking at another reconciliation bill. That bill will be able to do things to try to fight inflation like dealing with prescription drug costs and tax reforms, as well as climate change mitigation investments, and how we can enhance the Affordable Care Act.

Those are the issues that the American people, as we move into the midterms and others, will see that the Democrats are moving forward. We've yet to hear anything from the Republicans as to what their plan is. The fact of the matter is even when you're talking about the war, you've heard some of the ridiculous statements of Donald Trump and, particularly, the senators who are supporting him and seem to be saying good things about Putin.

Those things will be all up in the things of which we have to deal with. I think that we'll be addressing the issues of the day and then we'll look and see what's taking place because a lot of the action will be in the Senate, of course, because we passed many of these bills on the House side. We'll see what takes place there so that the American people will know who stands where when it's time to help them.

Brian: Gasoline tax suspension?

Congressman Meeks: Well, I've been looking at that very closely because I want to make sure that there would be a benefit and we could see a reduction even if a short term in gas prices. I know that we're also talking to some of our other allies to see if, in fact, they can put more oil out during this crisis because here's another question of supply and demand where that comes in.

For me, everything is on the table again. I'm looking at, as we all are, the best ways of trying to make sure that we don't make any short-term plans that have long-term pain. It is maybe a short-term gain and long-term pain, so we've got to make sure that that's not occurring. That's why you got to dot every I, cross every T, look at every scenario, and make a determination ultimately as to the best way to move forward. It's something that we're looking at.

Brian: Congressman Gregory Meeks, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, congressman from Southeast Queens, thank you so much for joining us. We always appreciate it when you come on.

Congressman Meeks: Always good to be with you, Brian.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.

 

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