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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Yes, it's Monday, May 1st, May Day 2023, and we should get a lot of May flowers around here after those April showers. More like April monsoons we had over the weekend. We learned again why they call it the Bronx River Parkway. It was more like the Bronx Parkway River. It was nice to see the sun in the sky again this morning, though, based on the weather forecast, I guess we'll see how long it lasts.

For journalists who cover national politics, this isn't just May Day, and it isn't any old Monday. It's the Monday after the annual White House Correspondence Dinner where the Washington Press Corps and the President come together to eat, drink, and make fun of each other.

President Biden: A lot of ways, this dinner sums up my first two years in office. I'll talk for 10 minutes, take zero questions and cheerfully walk away.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: That, of course, was President Biden from his White House Correspondent Dinner remarks. We'll play several excerpts in this segment from Biden, and the evening's headliner, comedian Roy Wood Jr. from the Daily Show.

Roy Wood Jr.: The untouchable Tucker Carlson is out of a job. Some people celebrate it, but to Tucker staff, I want you to know that I know what you're feeling. I work at the Daily Show, so I too have been blindsided by the sudden departure of the host of the fake news program.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden, for his part, celebrated the free press as he celebrated his own longevity.

President Biden: After all, I believe in The First Amendment, not just because my good friend Jimmy Madison wrote it.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Roy Wood Jr. also celebrated Biden's longevity.

Roy Wood Jr.: We should be inspired by the events in France. They rioted when the retirement age went up two years to 64. They rioted because they didn't want to work till 64. Meanwhile, in America, we have an 80-year-old man begging us for four more years of work.

[laughter]

Roy Wood Jr.: Begging, begging.

Brian Lehrer: They also both got serious about journalists being killed or taken prisoner and about the importance of local journalism.

Roy Wood Jr.: My mother was amongst a group of Black student protestors fighting for equality in the '60s at Delta State University. That was a dangerous time, but those types of incidents were covered by local reporters, and some of the shame that came from the national embarrassment of treating people inhumanely is part of the pressure that helped to create that type of change. What would've become of my mother and those other protestors if a local journalist wasn't there telling the story?

Brian Lehrer: We'll play more clips as we go of both Biden and Wood, and we'll talk about other little Monday Morning Politics like whether the US is about to default on those treasury bills you own and others of its debts with Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today, whose credentials include that she's interviewed the past 10 presidents. She's the author of two best-selling books, Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and The Lessons of Power, which is her latest, and The Matriarch: Barbara Bush and the Making of an American Dynasty, and maybe the most important credential of all, she was actually at the White House Correspondents Dinner.

Susan, always great to have you. Have you slept it off yet after Saturday night?

Susan Page: Yes, I have. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Oh good. I see this was the first time in six years that a president actually attended the dinner because I guess Biden's first two years had pandemic social distancing, and the previous four-- Did Donald Trump who called the press 'enemies of the people' refuse to attend?

Susan Page: He did refuse to attend. Now, he did attend one Gridiron dinner, which is another press dinner held annually, but that was the only time in which he came to one of these annual events where the press and the people we cover get together wearing fancy clothes.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, they say it was an Obama joke from the White House Correspondents Dinner back when Obama was president that partially caused Trump to actually launch his campaign. The line was something like, "Trump is thinking of running for president. People are wondering whether he'll run as a Democrat or a Republican. Actually, he's running as a joke." Was that the gist?

Susan Page: Yes, that was the gist of that joke which got a big laugh in the ballroom but when you looked at Donald Trump who was seated in the middle of the ballroom, he looked really angry at that. He did not take that in a lighthearted way. It was meant as a sting, and I think it was a sting. I don't know if that played a part in his decision to run for president, but it was a remarkable day when Donald Trump went to the Oval Office to meet with Barack Obama for the transfer of power.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe we'll see if the same thing inspires Ron DeSantis, who hasn't yet declared he's a candidate while a bunch of other Republicans have. Maybe Biden's lines about DeSantis will get him angry enough to run. Lines from Biden like this.

President Biden: [unintelligible 00:05:43], can't be too rough on the guy. After his reelection as governor, he was asked if he had a mandate. He said, "Hell no, I'm straight."

[laughter]

President Biden: I'll give you time to think that one through.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Now, Susan-

President Biden: You got it?

Brian Lehrer: -you were in the room. Did people not get that mandate joke at first? Did Biden need to give people time to think that one through as he said there?

Susan Page: I think it got a laugh right away although he did mock at some. Of course, Governor DeSantis was not in the ballroom, so we couldn't quite see what he thought of that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I noticed as I was watching it live, that Biden really carefully pronounced mandate as if it could sound like two words or it could sound like the one-word mandate. I thought if he's trying to counter the impression that some people have that he's too old to be president, he killed it in the State of the Union address with his pacing and the sharpness of delivery, and I thought he did it again in this Correspondents Dinner. You have to be a good deliverer of lines, you have to have timing to do comedy, you have to have rhythm to do comedy, and I thought he totally pulled it off.

Susan Page: I agree, gave a good speech. He delivered it well. It had some very funny lines. It was self-deprecating about his age. That is always a smart thing to do, whether you're president or just a person under some fire to make fun of yourself. I would say though that it does not test the facilities that we really look for in a president, which would be on exhibit more in something like an interview or a news conference where you pose questions and get his more spontaneous response.

I think that's also true of the State of the Union, he did very well in the State of the Union. He had a message that resonated I think with a lot of Americans of attention to the pressures on the middle class and the working class. I would just add that one of the things he made fun of was his unwillingness to do news conferences or interviews as many as modern presidents have done. I think that does mean that he continues to get some criticism for that.

Brian Lehrer: Right. That was referred to in the first clip of Biden that we played there from the dinner, making fun of himself. I don't have the exact transcript in front of me, but it was like, "Yes, this is typical of my first years in office. I talk for 10 minutes and then walk away without taking any questions." That was based on something real. I see he gets criticized a lot for that on Fox News. Do you think that he does not have as many news conferences as other presidents because he doesn't have the facility in a certain way to handle them? Is that what you're suggesting?

Susan Page: I'm not saying he doesn't have the facility, but it's not his strength. He used to call himself a gaffe machine because of his tendency to make errors in spontaneous exchanges.

Brian Lehrer: Which was very true when he was a younger politician as well, right?

Susan Page: Totally. It's why he was so much fun to cover. Of course, he deals with the legacy of having a stutter as a child, and sometimes you can see that when he's engaging in a news conference or an interview. That's something to admire that he has dealt with and overcome that problem which is such a serious one for so many people who have it. It's not that he doesn't have the facility, it doesn't show him to his greatest strength. Maybe, it's not surprising that he chooses to do the fewest news conferences of any president since Ronald Reagan and the fewest interviews of any president in modern times.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. When you're doing a fast-paced comedy routine in front of a national audience, you also have to acknowledge the risk that you're going to stutter. I only saw it once during that. It came up when he was trying to deliver a joke about him not being able to make the first jokes about Ron DeSantis because Mickey Mouse beat him to it. He dropped Mickey, a little bit stuttered over it, went on, but it was so minor.

Susan Page: Of course, I think he should do more news conferences and more interviews, and I'm available anytime he wants to do that. I would say, it's not to say it's so very easy to stand up in a ballroom of 2,600 people and a national audience, C-SPAN's highest ratings of the year perhaps. That is not such an easy thing to do either. It's just that I think presidents should do both.

Brian Lehrer: It was also on CNN and MSNBC, but Saturday night. That speech was given around 10:00 PM Saturday night. Not a lot of people are watching television, but then of course, there's social media. The dinner this year came after quite an intense week in real life in the national politics media, as we all know, after the Dominion voting machine settlement with Fox News and the firing of Tucker Carlson from there and Don Lemon from CNN. Was there a different vibe in the room than at previous White House Correspondents Dinners you've attended?

Susan Page: Well, the firing of two such prominent people, Tucker Carlson and Don Lemon, definitely was a subject of a lot of jokes. That was notable. Of course, it happened right before the dinner, so that's helpful in terms of people who want to make jokes about it. The thing that made this dinner a little different, I think, was the Russian arrest of Evan Gershkovich, the reporter for the Wall Street Journal for Moscow on trumped-up charges of espionage. My table, the US TODAY table I was at, was next to the Wall Street Journal table, where Evan's mother and father and sister and brother-in-law-

Brian Lehrer: Oh, they were there, huh?

Susan Page: -were seated with the executives of the Wall Street Journal. There were just a steady stream of journalists and officials to come and express their concern to Evan's family and their determination to keep his situation front and center. That is also how President Biden began his remarks with very serious comments about Evan, about Austin Tice, who has been held in Syria for 11 years, a journalist, about Paul Whelan, also being held in Russia. That was the thing that I thought was the most distinctive about this dinner compared with the many others I've gone to through the years.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Among the serious things that both Biden and Roy Wood Jr. referenced was Evan Gershkovich. Will you people get it straight, by the way, in Washington? Half of you say Gershkovich and half of you say Gershkovich. [chuckles] Do you happen to know what it really is? Did you ask his mom?

Susan Page: His name is Evan, and that is what I choose to call him.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] Right. That's all Roy Wood, I noticed, chose to call him. He called him Evan. They talked about that, and we played the clip of Wood stating the importance of local journalism in Alabama when his mother was among those integrating in college. Here's Biden after mentioning that he hosted a screening this year of the movie Till.

President Biden: The story of Emmett Till and his mother is a story of a family's promise and loss and a nation's reckoning with hate, violence, and abuse of power. It's a story that was seared into our memory and our conscience, the nation's conscience, when Mrs. Till insisted that an open casket for her murdered and maimed 14-year-old son be the means by which he was transported. She said, "Let the people see what I've seen." The reason the world saw what she saw was because of another hero in this story, the Black press. [applause] That's a fact. Jet Magazine, the Chicago Defender, and other Black radio and newspapers were unflinching and brave in making sure America saw what she saw.

Brian Lehrer: Just another indication of how this is both about comedy and about seriousness at the White House Correspondents Dinner. Does the dinner serve a serious purpose beyond just saying nice things about the press? I heard somebody refer to a scholarship, but I'm not sure if that was a joke. Roy Wood made a scholarship applicants joke and said, "George Santos says he was a winner of one of these scholarships. Ha-ha-ha-ha." What else is really going on behind the scenes there?

Susan Page: The dinner does raise money for maybe two dozen journalism scholarships that are given at universities across the country, including some historically Black colleges. The awardees, the young people getting those scholarships were at the dinner and were featured in an early part of it that, I think, was probably not carried on CNN and MSNBC, which is why I would watch C-SPAN if I was trying to watch this dinner. It also serves the purpose of spotlighting the fact that, in America, we can have a vigorous press and yet also sit down with the elected officials we cover, including the president, who will sit there and be made fun of. I think that's a statement of the strength of our democracy.

Also, there's this weird coziness there. There's celebrities that get a lot of attention, and I don't really understand what they have to do with the White House Correspondents Association or coverage of the White House, but they're there. There's the coziness also with the officials we cover. I know that does not reinforce what we want to project, which is that we are not beholding to these officials, we are holding them accountable. I think, to some people watching it, that might seem not what's happening at the dinner.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. This always comes up, and I was going to ask you about that anyway. Do you attend these things with any amount of cringing at the whole scene you're taking part in? Because whether it's actually true or not, it might leave the impression with some viewers that you are too cozy with the people who your real job is to hold accountable.

Susan Page: I cannot be too high-minded about this. I've gone to every White House Correspondents' dinner since 1980.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Susan Page: I've never chosen to stay home because it is a fun evening and interesting. Sometimes it makes you cringe, and sometimes it makes you laugh, but it's fun to be there. I do tend not to attend the destination wedding events that are all around the dinner, the brunches, and the parties that start on Wednesday and end on Sunday night, but I can't claim I've stayed home because of concern about the coziness of the dinner.

Brian Lehrer: If you've attended that many, are there any that stand out or any moments that stand out? I mentioned Obama's line about Trump running as a joke and the effect that that might have had on Donald Trump actually throwing his hat into the ring for 2016. Any other moments jump out at you?

Susan Page: Well, I remember when Obama was at the dinner, and it was only the next morning we found out that was when the successful raid on Osama Bin Laden was occurring. In 2000, I was actually president of the White House Correspondents Association for the last dinner with Bill Clinton. The cast of West Wing was there and did a funny video. That one was memorable to me.

Brian Lehrer: If you were there in 1980, that means you would've been there when Jimmy Carter was president. I have a world of respect for Jimmy Carter. He's been on this show a handful of times, we've been playing clips of my interviews with him since he went into hospice care. Jimmy Carter, for all the things that he's rightfully lauded for, is not somebody I think of as with a good sense of humor. Do you recall if he was funny at the White House Correspondents Dinner?

Susan Page: I have no idea. I have no recollection of those early dinners. I'll tell you, when I started going to the White House Correspondents Dinner, it was so long ago, and it was not then a very glitzy affair. There were no [unintelligible 00:19:13] events around it. The idea of getting a good guest was, if you've got the secretary of agriculture to be your guest, that was considered a good guest.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] A big deal.

Susan Page: These days--

Brian Lehrer: Now, it's Brittney Griner.

Susan Page: Exactly. The secretary of agriculture is calling around trying to see if somebody will invite him. There's been a lot of changes in the dinner since the years I've gone there.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Well, Carter, who came on the show a bunch of times in pretty recent years, I loved talking to him, but he was not one of those interview guests who you could joke around with, for what it's worth. All right, we'll continue in a minute with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today on the Funny and the Serious at the White House Correspondents Dinner Saturday night, and we'll get into some actual Monday morning politics as well with the Debt Ceiling politics getting more intense as the government gets closer to defaulting on its debts and more.

We'll also touch on the potential meaning for Biden of RFK Jr's Presidential primary campaign, which Susan has written about and more. Listeners, we can open up the phones.

Anybody listening who did watch the White House Correspondents Dinner on Saturday night on any of those cable channels, or watch some clips afterwards, want to say anything about it or ask anything about it or say what your favorite line was, sometimes truth is spoken in comedy in a way that people won't say in straight lines. Or talk about any other politics at the national level that are happening right now. 212-433-WNYC for Susan Page, 212-433-9692, and stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today on the Funny and the Serious at the White House Correspondents Dinner Saturday night, and we'll get into some actual Monday Morning Politics as well. The journalist playing the role of host at the Dinner was NPR White House Correspondent, Tamara Keith, who he call Tam, as Biden noted in his remarks.

President Biden: Tam, thank you for hostings. I love NPR-

[applause]

-because they whisper into the mic like I do-

[applause]

-but not everybody loves NPR. Elon Musk tweeted that it should be defunded. Well, the best way to make NPR go away, it's Elon Musk to buy it.

[laughter]

That's more true than you think. Anyway.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: I do not whisper into the microphone. Okay, maybe sometimes I whisper into the microphone, but perhaps the most memorable line of the whole night was this, from the comedian headliner Roy Wood Jr. from The Daily Show.

Roy Wood Jr.: I got to give it up to billionaires. Billionaires. Boy, y'all are relentless. Y'all always come up with something new to buy.

[laughter]

Just when you think of everything you could buy on earth, billionaires will come up with a new thing. Y'all buy space rockets, you bought Twitter. This man bought a Supreme Court justice. Do you understand how rich you have to be to buy a Supreme, a Black one? On top of that, there's only two in stock.

[laughter]

Harlan Crow owns half the inventory.

[laughter]

We can all see Clarence Thomas, but he belongs to billionaire Harlan Crow, and that's what an NFT is.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Susan comparing Clarence Thomas to NFT, meaning, basically, Billionaire Harlan Crow is buying him. The others of us just can look at him. Did that ruffle feathers more than most of the jokes?

Susan Page: Well, that got a very big laugh in the ballroom, and I didn't see any of the Supreme Court justices in the room. I don't know if any of them attended. Often, they don't go to dinners like this, although some of them I think might enjoy it. There were no Harlan Crow defenders leaping up and protesting. I'll say that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Let's see. Do we have any Dinner callers? I'm just looking at my caller board. Oh, Elizabeth in Long Branch, who was going to ask, why nothing about Clarence Thomas, but I think you just got it there, Elizabeth, right?

Elizabeth: No, my question was why wasn't there more press coverage the next day about the comments about Clarence Thomas? I didn't see anything.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, Press coverage. Well, which raises an even larger question about how does the White House press corps cover the White House press corps at the Correspondents Dinner?

Susan Page: [laughs] Well, I think many organizations do what we do at USA Today, which we have a life reporter who's not a White House Correspondent generally doing a story about the more social aspects of the evening, the celebs who were there. I saw the New York Times did a feature on who was best dressed at the Dinner. There is a red carpet which I personally have never walked down, but a red carpet if you want while you entered the Dinner.

Elizabeth I'm sure is right, that there wasn't a lot of coverage about the joke about Harlan Crow and Clarence Thomas, but there has been a lot of coverage about the revelations, about the relationship between the two and the luxury vacations that Harlan Crow has been giving Clarence Thomas without them being properly reported.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. On what people wore, Tamara Keith, who we just mentioned, NPR, Tamara Keith who served as host. I didn't see it, but I'm told that she had a dress made to copy what Holly Hunter wore to the Dinner in the movie Broadcast News, which she said sparked her desire to go into journalism. Did you see Tam's dress?

Susan Page: Yes. She actually, during her speech showed a picture of Holly Hunter in the dress, so you could tell that-- A wonderful dress, a black and white polka dot dress. Yes, that was one of the fun things of the evening.

Brian Lehrer: You know what, we're getting a caller who was there Saturday night working for the Wall Street Journal. Again, the Wall Street Journal represented in such a serious way in people's remarks, because of the taking of their journalist Evan Gershkovich, in Russia recently. Andrew in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Andrew: Hey, Brian. Yes, I was working with the production team that put together the Wall Street Journal reception before the Dinner, so it wasn't part of the actual dinner, but it was part of the Dinner. The messaging around Evan was very strong. They actually had pins that they gave out to all the guests that came into the reception saying, "I stand with Evan," so it was very serious. The family was actually supposed to give remarks at the reception, but they decided not to. I don't know. There was a little bit of concern about security and whatnot in the building, but good to hear that they showed up later to the Dinner.

Elizabeth: Yes, Andrew, they did come to the Dinner and actually Evan's sister had a packet of buttons that said, "free Evan," which she gave me one, I put it on. I think his parents and especially his mother was a little overwhelmed by the event, by the emotion. I can't imagine the strain of having a son being held hostage in Russia. I can understand why perhaps they chose not to speak, but I can't tell you how many people came up to say, "We stand with Evan."

Brian Lehrer: Andrew, thank you for checking in on that. We really appreciate. By the way, are you in a playground?

Andrew: I am sorry. Sorry for the noise. Yes, I'm with my daughter right now.

Brian Lehrer: Just adds a beautiful element of color. Okay, Andrew and another child makes their radio debut on the Brian Lehrer Show. Andrew, thanks for calling in. Very important that they-- I don't know if it matters, but maybe it matters to America's awareness of Evan Gershkovich. Do you think it matters to Vladimir Putin in any way that they do this kind of thing?

Elizabeth: I'm not sure me putting on a button that says "Free Evan" makes any difference to Vladimir Putin, but I think the president of the United States making that his opening remarks in a speech that was to a huge audience that got a lot of attention around the world, I think probably Vladimir Putin is aware of that.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Biden mentioned another journalist who's been held in Syria for 11 years, and I had no idea about that story. In fact, I don't have his name in front of me now and I don't remember it. Are you familiar with that journalist and that situation?

Elizabeth: Yes. Austin Tice, a freelance journalist, held 11 years, if you can imagine that in Syria. His mother was also at the Dinner and she was also recognized for the terrible situation her son faces.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go on to a little actual Monday Morning Politics about politics, not about a Dinner where they talk about politics and talk about covering politics, the Debt Ceiling. How close are we to default? Maybe you can give us a quick summary of what Kevin McCarthy and his Republican colleagues in the House passed the other day in the position that leaves Biden in right now.

Susan Page: The debt ceiling, we actually hit the debt ceiling in January, but the treasury department has been taking what they call extraordinary measures to keep it from causing a default. It's not clear how much time that they have. There's the treasury secretary, Janet Yellen, has said we could actually hit the hard debt ceiling as soon as next month in June. Some analysts think that won't happen actually until August. It depends in part on how quickly tax revenue comes in from the April 15th deadline for filing your taxes, but we will hit it. The only question is when the summer that happens.

There seems to be a remarkable lack of urgency on the part of some policy-makers in Washington to deal with it given the gravity that an unprecedented default would be. The House Republicans managed to pass a debt ceiling bill last week, but it includes provisions that the White House says are unacceptable. It would raise the debt ceiling also only for a year so we would go through this exercise again next year in election year when it would presume it would be harder. It kept spending at 2022 levels, which means cuts for everything except the military. It means cuts in every discretionary domestic spending program, including for veterans and farmers, and for everybody else.

It rolls back some of the things that Democrats managed to pass last year when they still held both houses of Congress. Beefing up the IRS, for instance, it repeals student loan debt relief. It is a package that I think Kevin McCarthy deserves some credit for getting through with his very narrow majority, but it is nothing more than an opening bid. This is not something that will go into law. It's a Republican effort, I think, to convince the White House that they need to negotiate on this, something that the White House has said they won't do.

Brian Lehrer: Why do they cut things that help vulnerable people like food stamps, veterans benefits, you mentioned, and they don't cut the military, which is such a big part of the discretionary budget?

Susan Page: Well, because that would fit their philosophical approach. The other question would be why do they propose cutting all the spending without proposing tax increases on corporations of the wealthy, some of the people who've gotten the biggest tax benefits during the Trump years. Those are questions that a lot of Democrats are raising.

Brian Lehrer: I saw one Democratic senator on TV this morning saying that whole bill, cutting money out of all those programs you mentioned is really designed to do one thing, to keep the Trump tax cuts for the rich in place. Is Biden proposing to repeal them?

Susan Page: Biden has proposed some tax increases. What he is saying in this debt ceiling debate is that we need a clean debt ceiling. We just need to raise the debt ceiling without taking care of revenue or spending problems and deal with those in the traditional way in the budget bill that needs to be passed, by the way, by the end of September, if we're not going to have a government shutdown. One member of Congress I talked to, Saturday night at the dinner, said, he thinks we will have a shutdown before the political sides get serious about negotiating, spending too. The debt ceiling is the first and most urgent matter, but there are some others that are going to come up in short order after that.

Brian Lehrer: Why isn't it okay, from the Democrat's point of view, to negotiate spending, not to say to give into the Republicans' spending priorities as opposed to the Democrats' spending priorities? If you have to keep raising the debt ceiling, meaning you have to keep borrowing more money to keep the federal government solvent, why wouldn't that be an occasion to have a conversation, to have a policy debate about the debt and figure out what you're going to do for the future so you don't have to keep raising it as fast?

Susan Page: Well, that will might be what happens in this case because it's not clear that the White House can sustain a position of, "We're not going to negotiate. We just want a clean bill," if Republicans refuse to negotiate on their demands to have some spending cuts to address the deficit. That may well be what happens, but it hasn't happened yet. I think there is real nervousness that we are heading down a road we've never headed down before, which is actually to default.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, the Democrats could defend how much debt the country is taking on and say, "Well, this is a sustainable amount of debt given the size of the total federal budget, given the size of the total US economy, the amount of debt that we're accumulating is acceptable," but it doesn't seem like they're having that substantive debate.

Susan Page: Well, you could also have that substantive debate, but not at the moment you have to raise a debt ceiling because maybe you should have a more serious debate about our finances, our spending, our deficit, our debt. What makes serious policymakers so nervous is the idea that we will threaten going over the cliff while having this other larger debate.

Brian Lehrer: The Republicans like to make the analogy of an individual or a family that goes into debt. I guess the Democrats could counter that. If you are that family with a mortgage, when the mortgage is due on the first of the month, you don't hold it back while you debate, within the family, your future borrowing and spending. You make your mortgage payment so you don't default, and then you have the conversation.

Susan Page: The other thing that's become part of this debate too is just fear generally about whether we're having some other cascading economic problems. Over the weekend, we had JP Morgan by First Republic. This is a huge bank failure and it's an attempt to stabilize the banking system and we hope it works, but it reminds me a little of those early days of the financial crisis in 2008 when we saw banks in peril and we saw how catastrophic it was, the serious recession we went into after that. There is a lot to worry about and there is no clear solutions at the moment on the horizon.

Brian Lehrer: Before you go, Susan, would you touch on your article on USA Today about the meaning of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s primary challenge to President Biden? For Biden, an early poll shows that RFK Jr. is getting 14% support among, I guess that's among people who voted for Biden in 2020. That's in the actual Democratic party voting field. Nobody thinks he's going to get the nomination or that there's going to be a serious challenge in any state, but your article seems to suggest that it implies a threat ahead for Biden, maybe in the general.

Susan Page: Brian, this was a big surprise to me. When we talked about this poll, I wasn't sure it was worth polling on RK Jr or the Democratic field since Biden does not seem to have a serious challenge, but we went ahead. I was surprised that RFK Jr., although he has a famous political name and he's gotten some prominence as an anti-vax activist, managed to get 14% of Biden's vote, and Biden got 67% of Biden's vote.

That is, I think, a worrisome sign. It shows a willingness to entertain alternatives to Biden by the people who elected him last time. What we don't know is whether this is really supporters for RFK Jr. or if this is just an anti-Biden vote that somebody else could tap. Although I'd say that no serious, credible Democratic official has indicated at all that they're going to do that in this Democratic primary.

Brian Lehrer: In the general election, do you think it could indicate that there might be a relatively low turnout compared to the extremely high turnout that we've had the last few if it's a Biden-Trump rematch because a lot of people are going to go, "Ugh," and stay home?

Susan Page: Well, we had that huge turnout last time. Democrats say that Democratic voters may not be totally enthused about Joe Biden, but they are totally against Donald Trump and that Donald Trump is the biggest turnout factor that they have going for them. The other thing that this number, this 14% among Democrats might indicate is a willingness to entertain a third-party candidate. There is nothing that causes Biden officials more alarm than a credible third-party candidate who might tap away some of that anti-Trump vote and change really the calculation for a series of battleground states.

Brian Lehrer: Susan Page, Washington Bureau chief for USA Today. Thanks for breaking down the White House Correspondents Dinner with us, the important serious stuff from it, as well as some of the laugh lines and talking about some of the other things going on in Washington right now. Susan, thanks a lot.

Susan Page: Brian, always my pleasure. Thank you.

 

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