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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We will talk to the two major party candidates for mayor of New York today and tomorrow. Tomorrow, the Democrat, Eric Adams, right now, the Republican, Curtis Sliwa. He is best known as the founder and leader of the Guardian Angels, a civilian street patrol group, which he started back in the late 1970s. He's also been New York's most prominent local radio conservative talk show host for more than 30 years, mostly on WABC Radio, also here on WNYC for a short time in the '90s, and was a weekly commentator for years on New York 1's program Inside City Hall, known there for broad political satire, including costumes, a contrast to the state host, Errol Louis.

Back in the day, Sliwa was shot and seriously injured. The Gambino Crime Family boss, John Gotti, was tried multiple times on kidnapping and attempted murder charges for that but not convicted. Sliwa also admitted faking crimes in Guardian Angels heroics around those crimes to get publicity for himself and his group, that was in 1992. The Sliwa campaign revolves around a tough-on-crime platform. The candidate joins me now. Hi, Curtis, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Curtis Sliwa: It's great to be with you, Brian. That was a very good introduction. You touched all bases.

Brian Lehrer: For people who don't know you though, like a young voter who doesn't remember the early stuff I mentioned or is a cord cutter and never saw you on cable on New York 1, how would you tell them who Curtis Sliwa is and why you want to be mayor?

Curtis Sliwa: Many of them are following me on TikTok. It is a forum, a social networking platform that few of any elected officials or those running for office use, but does have a direct appeal on those who are not alive in those days in the '70s, '80s, and '90s that you were referring to. It's been a tremendous way for me to connect to all of them, not just about the crime issue, but about what I feel is the number one issue, Brian, and that is the lack of compassion for the emotionally disturbed, for the homeless people in our city, and for our animal community. I'm the only candidate ever to advocate no-kill shelters.

If you notice, just yesterday in the Times, the extensive profile of Jack Brown and his family, uppity from the homeless situation because they've been outsourced contracts for homeless shelters. It reminds me in the Bronx, where I first established Guardian Angels and have been in many of the shelters, the case of Victor Rivera back in March. He and his family making millions, and the money is not going directly to the homeless. Even on your own show, Mayor de Blasio had to acknowledge the other day that dealing with the homeless has probably been his weakest area of having any impact.

I said to myself, "Well, I would revise that," but Eric Adams wants to keep Steven Banks, who is the head of the Homeless Services program for the de Blasio administration right in place saying he did an excellent job. I don't know how you do an excellent job when you have all this corruption going on under your shift, and the mayor himself indicates that he hasn't been able to successfully deal with the homeless growing situation.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what's your definition of compassion since that's a word you use toward the homeless? Banks comes out of the homeless advocate's community, and so would be considered a progressive, the way we generally use that term these days. People might assume that you would be more for "sweeping homeless people off the streets" so that people who live in the communities where they are don't have to be bothered with them. What is your position and what's your definition of compassion here as it translates to policy?

Curtis Sliwa: Brian, I've been into multiple shelters run by the City of New York, many of them through nonprofits. You have a standard shelter in many of the neighborhoods in which the demand for the women, for the families, must be in by ten o'clock at night, and then they are told to leave at 7:30 in the morning. It's nothing more than a warehouse. Services are not provided for those who have alcohol problems or drug addictions or emotional issues. They have special shelters for those who are emotionally disturbed, they're not able to deliver the services; and yet there are some really good shelters for those who have been domestically abused.

These women and also their families are in shelters, and they need the security because of the domestic violence that has been committed against them and will continue to be committed. For the gays and lesbians and transgender, they need their shelters because they're constantly under attack. With the many homeless that I deal with in the streets, Brian, there are a number who had dogs and cats, and they're very few shelters that permit animals in the shelter, so they choose to live in the streets. It has to be completely revised.

A very good program that was disbanded by Mayor Bloomberg because he said it was too costly was Camp LaGuardia, upstate New York and Orange County. Single able-bodied men were sent there, it's a farm. They became self-sufficient. They had a job corps. They were taught negotiable skills to become carpenters, electricians, plumbers. They were able to dry out of whatever their problems are with alcohol or drugs, and they were getting mental health care.

Then, they were sent back to the city, and now at least they had an opportunity to function on their own, whereas before, it was just a constant cycle of homeless shelter, the homeless shelter. We've got to repair these human beings because they are our fellow brothers and sisters. We can't just warehouse them as the de Blasio administration has done.

Brian Lehrer: If you're talking about improving the quality of shelters to get homeless people off the streets, I guess you're saying they'd have more incentive to get off the streets voluntarily if the shelters are good. We've seen Mayor de Blasio try to expand the shelter system. I think his proposal has been something like 60-plus new shelters around the city, but he keeps running into community opposition all over the place from people who don't want to shelter in their neighborhoods because they consider it unsafe.

Are you saying to the people in those neighborhoods, "Do accept your shelter. If I'm Mayor of New York City, I will also ask you to accept those new shelters in your communities?"

Curtis Sliwa: There has to be transparency. As you saw on the Upper West Side, residents there were very progressive, who had helped to elect and re-elect Bill de Blasio twice, found out that hotels were being repurposed into COVID-19 shelters for the homeless, with no input from them whatsoever, with no information. That's occurred in many of the 80 neighborhoods that have had shelters put in. There needs to be town hall meetings and explanations.

They need to understand the difference between a family shelter versus single able-bodied men or women or those that are specifically for gays and lesbians and transgenders, or those that are for the homeless, who have animals who would be out in the streets because they need their companions. It's like a family member or a friend. None of that is happening with de Blasio, it's just being forced into these neighborhoods, which is causing this adversarial situation.

In fact, when I'm mayor, there is going to be a town hall meeting every week. If you notice, those have been discontinued. De Blasio has rarely, if ever, done town hall meetings except when it comes to education. I must tell you that that is a very important element, that a mayor sit there and listen, shut his mouth and listen to what the constituents have to say, and hopefully remedy some of the problems that they have in their neighborhood.

Brian Lehrer: Curtis Sliwa, with my guest, the Republican nominee for Mayor of New York. We can take a few phone calls for him. Questions for what kind of a mayor Curtis Sliwa would be at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer. To the heart of your campaign, reducing crime, Eric Adams was the tough-on-crime, pro-police candidate in the Democratic primary. Does the fact that Democratic voters chose him kind of box you out politically from the biggest contrast that you're trying to make?

Curtis Sliwa: No, I wouldn't say that he boxes me out. If you've noticed, Eric Adams has spent a lot of his time of late up in this suite, getting wined-dined and pocket lined by the Fortune 500 executives, by Wall Street executives, by the powerful, the rich, and I've spent my time out in the streets in subways as I always have. By the way, recently, Eric Adams was entertained by those who own the clubs and the restaurants and bars that contribute to the nightlife of New York City that we desperately need to get back to normal. He said, "I can't wait to sample more of the nightlife."

Good Eric, you sample the nightlife and the clubs, I've been sampling in the nightlife in the streets in the projects in the subways, which is chaotic, which is out of control, and needs to be brought into control, and needs the input of every elected official. By the way, I ride the subways every day, Eric Adams doesn't, and when he has on occasion, he says he does by carrying his gun. How are you going to teach young men of color in the inner city that the road to manhood does not exist by carrying a gun if the mayor of the city of New York insists on carrying a gun when he's mayor?

I've been shot five times as you mentioned. I was offered a Carry Permit. I do not carry any weapons because I'm the leader of a group that doesn't carry weapons, and it has to be "do as I say and as I do." A mayor must lead by example. Eric Adams is failing young men when he carries a gun but then tells them they shouldn't carry a gun.

Brian Lehrer: I'm on your campaign's press release list like many people in the media. I see that one of your main strategies seems to be to show up at individual crime scenes. On Saturday, it was where several teens have been shot in Boerum Hill. Recently, it was the 94th and Amsterdam intersection after a shooting there. I see that at the Boerum Hill appearance on Saturday, you said you would lower the age when a teenager would be charged as an adult for a violent crime down to age 16.

As you know, that was only recently raised from 16, under the theory that teenagers brains and sense of right and wrong are still developing then, and sentencing them as adults throws away too many lives unnecessarily that could be more easily turned around if they were sentenced as juveniles, not to mention the cost to the taxpayers. Do you really want to go back to charging 16-year-olds as adults?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, Brian, I understand why that was done, but I understand the mindset of gangs and gang leaders. We've seen what has happened during the lockdown and pandemic. Many of these young men and women were out in the streets. They weren't getting the virtual learning that they should have had. It was a prime time of recruitment for the gangs to re-empower themselves. Gang leaders who are adults look to the 16 and 17-year-olds and tell them as part of their initiation is a loaded nine-millimeter, wants you to go across the street and shoot that person in the head, knowing that there are virtually little, if any consequences now, for the commission of those kinds of adult crimes.

That's why you've seen these spurt of killings of young people of color, young adults of color by young, mostly men of color, and you say to yourself, "How are you going to, all of a sudden, stop this cycle of violence that the local officials aren't even responsible to?" For instance, you mentioned [unintelligible 00:12:28], none of the local officials came out. A borough president, Eric Adams was in there. He's still borough president, although he is basically being coronated the next mayor. Even up on 94th street in Amsterdam, that has a spate of violent crimes of late that they never had before, no local officials because they don't want to respond to the projects.

That's where these crimes have been taking place mostly by young men. Mostly in terms of a cycle of vengeance and retribution because of previous gang shootings. This is my forte, this is my field of expertise. I've been dealing with gangs for years and I've gotten many gang members to become guardian angels. You have to understand the thought process and you have to understand how they operate in the streets.

Brian Lehrer: This is also related though to the issue of mass incarceration of Black and Brown youth. Do you believe that mass incarceration is real and the current trend toward decarceration in recent years is good, or would you like to see the city go back to where things were before that?

Curtis Sliwa: No, no, no. Obviously let's look at Rikers Island where I've come out in defense of the correctional officers, the only candidate to do so, who are men and women of color and mostly women now. They're constantly under attack. They're being asked to take care of emotionally disturbed inmates who should be in mental healthcare facilities and not on Rikers Island. They house gangs together on the same ward, which is insane. There are a number of people who should not be detained simply because thet couldn't make bail.

Understand this Brian, I think you know and others may not know it. I was arrested 76 times in the first 13 years of starting the Guardian Angels because I was vilified by Ed Koch and the police. I spend time on Rikers Island, probably the only candidate ever who had been locked up on Rikers Island. I can look at it from the inside out, the outside in. They're a number of people who should not be remanded to jail because they couldn't make bail for minor crimes.

For the more serious crimes, when you look at the No Bail Bill that was passed in Albany and signed by Cuomo, it is released so many violent criminals who have gone out to just committed the same acts again and again, because they realized there were no consequences for their violent actions.

Brian Lehrer: On Rikers and the correction officers, I see you have a proposal to hire 2,000 more correction officers. Mayor de Blasio and many people say now, one of the precipitating reasons for the crisis of safety there is that, unconscionably, so many correction officers are calling in sick when they're not really sick. Why would you hire more rather than try to get those who are hired to go to work?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, it's interesting that Mayor de Blasio would say this, refusing to visit Rikers Island, he had to be dragged to Rikers Island, and he didn't even talk to one correctional officer, one inmate on his visit, didn't look at one cell or one dormitory where the inmates are housed, and made these statements. Brian, if you and I had to work three straight shifts on Rikers Island, which no longer isn't controlled by the correctional officers for the inmates' rule, it's going to force a lot of people not to show up for work for a variety of reasons.

Brian Lehrer: Even if we accept that premise, what is hiring 2,000 more on the taxpayer's dime do when they're not going to work now?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, because then they will be supplemented. You won't have one correctional officer having to guard an entire tier. They are understaffed. They haven't hired in over two years, and now they're talking about bringing private security on Rikers Island. This is a City Union, COBA. These are men and women who have the most dangerous job in the city now, and basically, you're bringing in scabs. Let's be real about this, progressives are embracing an idea of Bill de Blasio to bring in scabs on Rikers Island to take the place of COBA Union workers, who I think everyone can agree, have the most dangerous and difficult job in the city of New York now.

They've been attacked, the female correctional offices are sexually harassed. They've been sexually assaulted by the inmates. I don't see any of the inmate advocates talking about the plight of correctional offices. I understand the plight of the inmates. I understand that over a dozen have died. Many of them, emotionally disturbed inmates who should not have been housed on Rikers, but correctional officers agree with that, that's why they need to be in mental healthcare facilities receiving their daily medicine so they can be normalized.

That's the [sound cut] thing to do. That's the compassionate thing to do, not to avoid the problem and only go there for a one-time visit and then pontificate about it as the de Blasio has done and other elected officials.

Brian Lehrer: A little more time with the Republican nominee for mayor of New York, Curtis Sliwa. Tomorrow, we'll have the Democratic nominee, Eric Adams. Kaitlin in Ridgewood, you're on WNYC. Hi Kaitlin.

Kaitlin: Hi there. Hi Curtis. I've been listening to you for a very long time since you were on Curtis and QB back in the day. I'm hearing the compassion that you have for animals, the compassion you have for mentally ill people in our city, and people who are in domestic abuse situations, but I don't hear the same compassion that you have for kids who are getting collected into gangs because we don't have the social structures needed to support them into healthy adulthood, and instead you want to put them in jail.

You say you're for people of color in our city, yet you want to put these kids in jail instead of actually helping them with the social structures that they need. Help me understand why you don't have that compassion for them.

Curtis Sliwa: Well, I deal with these young men and young women all the time, and I will tell you once they carry guns and they use guns and they continue to use guns, you have to get them off the street because they are a menace to themselves, to the other young children who live in their community, and to the adults. The police are not doing it because they've been restrained. The mayor is not doing anything, he doesn't even go to the scene of these crimes. As I'm telling you, Eric Adams carries a gun. He says, "I carry a gun to church. I carry a gun on occasion when I go on the subway."

How can you be the mayor and advocate carrying a gun when these young men are listening and they say, "oh, it's do as I say but not as I do." You have to lead by example, and that's what I've always done. Even after being shot five times, I advocate, "Don't carry weapons. That's not a sign of manhood. What you should be working on is the muscle between both ears, learning to read, write, communicate, and improving yourself, and becoming a benefit to the community not a detriment as gangs. Nothing positive about gangs."

Brian Lehrer: That puts the onus on the individual. I think the caller is getting at a more systemic question. Let me ask you this way. Do you believe that white privilege and systemic racism are real and need to be addressed by social and particularly economic policy to reduce the disparities?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, I don't think it is directly contributing to the gang warfare we're seeing in the streets. Gang warfare has affected other ethnic communities, some of which were white early on. Some of it is the poverty that contributes to that, the lack of education. I dare say that more of the males in our community need to be the role models. If you don't want young men carrying guns and using guns, then we as men must actually be examples of that.

I think Eric Adams sends a very bad message to young men of color who are mostly responsible for these acts of violent crime against people of their own color.

We have to be examples, and that is not a proper example because he'll say, "Oh, it's just like when my parents told me not to smoke Marlboro Reds and smoked a Marlboro cigarette in front of me or told me not to smoke blunts and they were smoking blunts or drinking liquor, and then they told me I couldn't drink liquor." These young men and women are smart, they're intelligent, they need examples and models in the community, and we're failing to provide them. A mayor, first and foremost, should be a role model for all in the city. It should be, "Do as I say and do as I do." That's the way I've lived my life.

Brian Lehrer: That's about you. Again, I want to ask if you think white privilege- Let me just ask you that as a yes or no question, and then I'll follow up. Do you think white privilege is real and needs to be systemically addressed to bring, especially Black Americans, Black New Yorkers, but also some other people of color to equality? Is white privilege real and a problem?

Curtis Sliwa: Some of it is, and that's why we've advocated charter schools, but who have been the number one opponents of the charter school system that have been capped, that have helped so many children of color escape the lack of a proper education in public schools? The UFT, progressives, whites, Blacks, Hispanics, who label themselves as progressives. If you want to see young men and women of color elevated, why aren't you a proponent of raising the caps on charter schools that have done such a magnificent job? It will also force a competitive response from public schools to do their job and to help these children in need.

I want more education, not less education. More parochial school education, charter school education. Vocational training in not just the public schools but in the charter schools, and the religious schools, and the private schools. Give these young men and women negotiable skills like my cousins had, who are on their way to doing triple life without parole in Attica being influenced by Italian organized crime. They became carpenters, electricians, plumbers. They ended up being small business people, employing others, paying payroll taxes.

They were able to contribute to the community and take care of their own families and become role models to others who might have well joined in organized crime if they hadn't been an example of how to go in a different direction.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious if you saw the story in the New York Times the other day about the racist scandal in the Fire Department that has led to the biggest suspensions ever from a thread of racist messages after George Floyd's murder. Would you acknowledge systemic racism in the uniformed services, and if so, what would you do about it as mayor?

Curtis Sliwa: There are instances of racism, and those individuals need to be eliminated from the ranks. When you saw the George Floyd statue desecrated the other day the second time, that needs to be dealt with, that is a violation. If you're not happy with a statue, my belief is, we just build more statues. If you are unhappy with hate speech, you just allow for more free speech, but there are remedies to deal with this. These individuals in the Fire Department have been identified, and they have to be dealt with severely because you can't have that going on within the ranks of uniformed services in the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Judy in Manhattan, you are on WNYC with Curtis Sliwa. Hi, Judy.

Judy: Hi, thanks so much for taking my call. I have two issues I'd like to address to Mr. Sliwa. First of all, when talking about homelessness, I don't hear a housing solution. It's perpetuating a class of people who we see as being perpetually unhoused, who just say, "There's a shelter solution." I don't hear you addressing the lack of, for example, the 421a waiver, which has given tax write-offs to big real estate for the last 40 years, and Cuomo and de Blasio just added another 35 years of no property taxes for luxury development.

Brian Lehrer: Judy, I'm going to have to leave it there because we're almost out of time in the segment. Do you have an affordable housing plan to rival whatever Eric Adams is proposing?

Curtis Sliwa: There is millions of square feet of commercial property now that are abandoned and are not going to be repurposed for commercial activity, they can be turned into affordable housing. Look at the Hudson Yards. It's a ghost town, and yet Eric Adams is being wined, dined, and pocket-lined by developers who want to develop Sunnyside Yards in Queens and Sunset Park in Brooklyn. Are you crazy? We already have enough unused commercial space. How about the right to do business for those who've never been involved in business before? How about repurposing millions of square feet of empty commercial space into affordable housing?

The space is there, it's up to us to repurpose it and develop a relationship with those who have the ability to do that, not to just get the rich richer, the developers by putting up properties. There is no demand for this space. There's too much supply now and not enough demand. Let's react to the realities of repurposing space for affordable housing and giving 20% and the tax breaks by forcing them to have 20% of their apartments available for those who are lower income. That's really worked out by progressives, Cuomo and de Blasio. You mentioned it, it hasn't worked.

I go back to Section 8, more of it because at least with all the problems that you had with SEC Section 8, you had people living in housing of their own instead of shelters. There are many, many different ways to address this. I'm dealing from the street. Eric Adams is dealing with it from the suites, dealing with developers, dealing with those who just want to build more space that there's no demand for. What are we going to do? Turn it into mausoleums? Turn it into more space for storage? I'm a clutter and I have some of my space in storage, but we have enough storage facilities, and we don't need mausoleums.

We need affordable housing for people so we can get them out of shelters, get them out of the streets, and allow them to live a normal life. That's what I stand for.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. We've kept this overwhelmingly on policy, but to character. You had that incident, I know it was a long time ago and you apologized for it, where you faked crimes. Guardian Angel heroics around those fake crimes seem to presage the fake news era of today. More recently, you've had to apologize for a racist costume on New York 1, an oversized sombrero to mock immigrants from Latin America. New York 1 suspended you for several weeks for making sexual comments about then-City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito. Does New York City really need a mayor with such a recent history of racist and sexist displays in public and fraud in the past?

Curtis Sliwa: Number one, I have apologized for all of that. Number two, I'm a Republican who can go into neighborhoods where the only Republican they've seen is Abraham Lincoln on a $5-bill. I've not been rejected by Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, transgenders, gays, lesbians. I've been embraced by some of them. More importantly, I hope tomorrow, Brian Lehrer, you ask Eric Adams, what about the five years that he was involved with the nation of Islam, in which he said only positive things about the number one anti-Semite, Louis Farrakhan, who hates gays and lesbians and transgenders, who hates white people?

Why is it he never gets asked about that, especially when David Dinkins, his mentor, did the right thing, spoke out against Louis Farrakhan speaking in New York City? Eric Adams condemned David Dinkins for that. That's on the public record. Please ask him about that.

Brian Lehrer: Curtis Sliwa, Republican candidate for mayor of New York. Thank you very much.

Curtis Sliwa: Thanks for the opportunity. Hope we can do it again before November 2nd.

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