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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian who's off today. When the Board of Elections released ranked-choice primary results last week, there was another big winner besides Eric Adams.

The city's Democratic comptroller nominee is now Brad Lander, who currently serves in the City Council representing Park Slope, Gowanus, Cobble Hill, Borough Park, Windsor Terrace, and the Columbia Waterfront. Assuming Lander wins the comptroller's office in November, which is likely, he brings his activist legislator background to the position of the city's chief fiscal watchdog and has promised voters a focus on sustainability and equity. Council Member Lander, welcome back to WNYC.

Brad Lander: Good morning, Brigid. So nice to be on with you.

Brigid Bergin: This time last week, I think we were all wondering when does the Board of Elections serve brunch so we could get the latest ranked-choice results.

Brad Lander: That was quite a day.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, quite a day, quite a night. You were already ahead of City Council Speaker Corey Johnson, but your lead narrowed a little bit after that first round of ranked results, what was it like waiting for the updated numbers last week?

Brad Lander: Absolutely. We felt very confident based on the results we had seen in the absentee counts, but what a strange way to be waiting for the results. You know, you've done more than anyone else to focus on the Board of Elections, which of course had all the information they needed on election night. I mean, the absentees came later, but we believe that they could have within a couple of days given us the ranked-choice results.

I'm a big supporter of ranked-choice voting. I'm excited to see Kristin Richardson Jordan in Harlem and Amanda Farías in Bronx be the two people who look like they'll win their elections, even though they came in second on first place votes. I support ranked-choice voting, think it could really help our city, but I would've liked the ballots counted faster, both the absentees and ranked-choice. We felt confident, but if you look at my knuckles, they do show marks of my teeth still.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Well, like you said, you have been a big and outspoken supporter of ranked-choice voting, but you also had legislation that would have required the Board of Elections to release those initial ranked results sooner.

Now that you've lived through it from the candidate and campaign's perspective, do you think that the approach, I mean setting aside the erroneous results that were released and retracted, do you think that the approach of releasing preliminary results a week after the primary and then continuing to update them on a weekly basis is the best way to provide this information? What's the better way to do it and is that something from your potential new perch at the municipal building, you'll be able to dig a little bit more into?

Brad Lander: Absolutely. The comptroller is in part our chief transparency officer, and I'm a big believer that government should provide the data it has as transparently and as quickly as it can and not hold on to it and say, "We've got to put it in context for you," so yes, my legislation would have said as quickly as they possibly can. They might not be able to do it on election night, but within a day or two, release all the results, let people see what they are. Let's count the absentees as promptly as we can but let's go ahead and release them so that everybody in the public can see what's going on. I think that would have been better.

Then as you get more information, you should release that too. There's no reason there couldn't be a daily release of absentee counts instead of counting them, each of those board offices. Some people have them, if you know magic questions to ask, then you get the results or the outstanding ballots, but other people don't have them. It's not the right way to run an election. We need an overhaul.

A lot of that's going to happen in Albany. I was glad to see Zellnor Myrie commit to start doing hearings around the state, but yes, there's a lot the City Board of Elections could do better. At its core, it's release the information clearly and transparently as soon as you have it. That would have been better here. Last Tuesday at the end of the day, we got to celebrate, and I'm excited about the results and where we get to go, but for future elections, we obviously need to improve how we run them.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. Final question with a frame from the Board of Elections and then we will move on to other topics, but under Scott Stringer, the comptroller's office has audited the board related to the voter purge in 2016. Again after 2019 general election related to just overall management and operations, finding that they mismanaged some election materials. What is your vision for audits with teeth?

Brad Lander: Absolutely. Well, audits don't enforce themselves. You have to be doing them independently with a real eye on getting the information and making it transparent but then also working together with people who want change. That means talking with good government groups, with New Yorkers, building being part of the work, to build power for change, and then to be working with the state legislators to actually make that change and with the board as well, but in this case, the comptroller certainly isn't in a position with power over the Board of Elections.

Your stories have helped make people angry and see what's going on and say, "We demand change." The board is uniquely structured to sadly be impervious to popular response. You've got these 10 commissioners who are each appointed by the county leader of either the Republican or Democratic party in their borough. It's not a very accountable structure, this is true not just of auditing the Board of Elections but of any audit, you want it to be independent, you want it to be against standards.

You want to make the data transparent but you also have to build support, build a coalition, work with the people who want change. That is something that I want to do more of in the comptroller's office.

Brad Lander: Listeners, we want you to join this conversation. What questions do you have for presumed Democratic city comptroller nominee Brad Lander. He and Eric Adams are both from Brooklyn but take a very different approach to some policies. Is there an agency you want him to audit as he gets into the municipal building, assuming he wins in November.

If you were a Lander supporter, tell us what won you over, and if you weren't, tell us what you hope to see from this likely nominee in the future. The number is 646-- I have to scan back up to our number. How do I not have this burned into my brain? 646-435 7280 or you can of course always tweet at @BrianLehrer. Again, that number is 646-435-7280.

Brad Lander: I really liked Brigid's prompts. Obviously if you were a supporter, I'd love to hear from you, but if you weren't, I want to understand what you're looking for, and boy, if you have ideas for where to dig in on city agencies so we make government work better together, would love to hear from you.

Brigid Bergin: While we get some of those calls in, you ran this race with a very clear focus on progressive issues, including increasing public safety with less policing and you have voted against the last two budget agreements in part because they didn't do enough to reduce the NYPD's budget. There's a lot to unpack here. First, on this year's budget for fiscal '22, why did you vote no?

Brad Lander: Luckily this year's budget was, we were in a much stronger position than we could have been because the Biden administration, working with Senator Schumer and Speaker Pelosi passed the American Rescue Plan. Instead of facing massive deficits like we did last year, that meant big cuts, there was enough money. We're getting $14 billion from the federal government over this year and next, but we have to spend it wisely and efficiently. I don't feel that we're yet set up to do that.

There's no American rescue plan tracking system where you can see where that money is going, what is going against one-time expenditures since it's one-time money, what is going against recurring expenditures that we're still going to need to have money for after this dries up, what are the goals and outcomes of that spending, how are the contracts being reviewed. The current comptroller just sued the mayor because $7 billion worth of COVID-related contracts have not gone through contract registration. I am concerned that we are not spending that money wisely, thoughtfully, strategically, we aren't tracking it.

That was my primary reason for voting no. I did also say that I wouldn't support a budget that increases the NYPD budget by another $200 million while we aren't doing more to have more supportive housing, to have more emergency mental health care, to invest in neighborhoods in ways that I think really create the conditions of public safety that will work for all neighborhoods. It was both of those reasons, a lack of transparency and strategy in that American rescue plan money especially, as well as our approach to public safety.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. Taking this question of you running as the progressive, with voters also choosing Eric Adams as their mayoral nominee who many have characterized as a moderate, who himself describes himself as a moderate, how do you reconcile that? What do you think it says about where the New York City Democratic Electorate is and why they responded to both of your messages?

Brad Lander: I believe people are thinking from the point of view of their neighborhoods and what's going on in them and what they want from government more than from ideological lanes or politics. We found that voters want a strong economic recovery from the COVID crisis that addresses inequalities that predated the pandemic and that we saw through the pandemic, that want to do something about them, build a city that has good jobs and economic opportunities where they can afford housing, where their neighborhoods are safe.

Then they want a government that can actually help deliver on those things, not just promise, but live up to those promises, and that's preparing for future crises so we're more ready when we get hit in the future. That's what I found voters resonating with that, sort of vision of a just recovery both more sustainable for the future but addressing pre-pandemic inequalities. That resonated from Southeast Queens up to Riverdale and every community throughout the city, and that was really the campaign that we ran. It brought a big coalition together around delivering for people in all neighborhoods.

Brigid Bergin: When you hear some of these folks in national media trying to telegraph what the outcome of these primaries mean for progressives on the national stage, do progressives need to rethink their approach in this city and beyond? Do you think those assessments are fair?

Brad Lander: Well, I think in many ways the election we had on June 22nd, we saw some amazing progressives elevated. There's three city-wide offices, Jumaane Williams and I are elected to two of them, some amazing new council members and not just in Western Queens, some amazing new progressive council members like Tiffany Cabán in places you might expect progressives to do well, but I'm really excited about Kristin Richardson Jordan's win in Harlem and Amanda Farías's win up in the Bronx.

That message of a government that could show up in all neighborhoods, that wants a strong economic recovery, that's focused on inequality and the climate crisis but also that demands government do better, that it really deliver on its promises, that can speak honestly and in real concrete terms and not only in promises and platitudes, I think that's what voters are hungry for.

I think progressives of course are learning lessons about, we hadn't been through a pandemic before. How do we think about what that means for the future? I don't know, it's a big city, people have a lot of diverse perspectives in all kinds of ways, it's not easy to tell one story about New Yorkers, but I believe that that message of just recovery is one that progressives did lean into and need to keep leaning into.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. Let's bring some callers into this conversation, David in Brooklyn, I think you have a question about the pension funds.

David: Yes. I understand in a lot of states, I've been reading the website nakedcapitalism.com [unintelligible 00:13:17] articles, how many pension funds have been ripped off by investing with private equity firms. It's quite convincing, especially in California and Kentucky, that with the states, what is it for the city pension funds and how does the city approach that?

Brad Lander: Thanks for this question, David. New York City's pension funds are now about a quarter of a trillion dollars, about $250 billion. They're about 75% in more traditional investments, in stocks and bonds essentially, in equities and in fixed incomes. Then about a quarter are in a range of different kinds of alternative investments, including private equity and private equity real estate.

I think you're right that this is an important area of scrutiny, the fees in those areas are higher and people promise higher returns, but we're not always evaluating returns net of the fees that are charged, and that is really important to do. They are riskier investments, you're trying there to outperform what's going on with the Dow Jones or the NASDAQ or the S&P, but that involves some additional risk. The comptroller's not a day trader, the job is to deliver long-term retirement security for the pensioners.

Then there are some real questions to ask about which investments are consistent with the city's long-term health and fiscal future, the kind of private equity real estate companies that bought up sky town with the plan to throw out the middle-income people and take it market rate. You have to ask some questions. The obligation of the comptroller as a fiduciary is to deliver market returns so that retired teachers and firefighters and nurses have the retirement they were promised, but you also are a big investor across the economy and have to be thinking about risk on a lot of levels.

I will take a look at that website. Thank you for pointing me to it. I think it is one area that we should be taking a good hard look at.

Brigid Bergin: David, thank you so much. Let's go to Laura in the Bronx. Welcome to WNYC.

Laura: Hi, thank you so much for taking my call, and I'm really excited to be on with you, Mr. Lander. I'm excited by you winning the position, and I wanted to add a couple of thoughts about ranked-choice voting. Kudos to WNYC for having done a story earlier in the year about ranked-choice voting and how it's applied in, I think it was in Ireland, but it points to the fact that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There are places in the world that have done this before and they've done it very well. This comports nicely with your idea that data should be released to the public as soon as possible, as soon as the administrations of the elections have the data.

What they did was every time a candidate for a position was eliminated, they had this enormous board where you could actually see the calculations going into effect on a big board. You could see the vote tallies change, and it was absolutely thrilling. It was better than a horse race, and people were staying up day and night to literally watch the returns come in. It sounds a little old-fashioned, but I think it would be educational, I think it would be exciting, and I think it comports with this idea that you release the data, get it out, get it out, get it to people, because people are excited about this and you want them to be.

I would encourage you to look around at other places that have done ranked-choice voting before, maybe check into the archives of WNYC and see what special I'm talking about because I don't remember, it was probably seven or eight months ago, but I think that the more we take hands-on approach to elections and the more we rest our processes away from the power of the political machines, the better our democracy will be. I'm very glad that you're in, and I hope to see great things from you.

Brad Lander: Thank you so much. That's really nice to hear. I will go back. Maybe Brigid knows what story that was and can point me to it. On your broader point, I really agree that opening up our elections and our politics but government in general to as many people as we can. It's not easy to get people involved. People have got busy lives, they've got good reasons for skepticism, but if we want to have a city that faces the future better together, then we have to do that work.

One of the things I'm proud of in the City Council was helping bring participatory budgeting to New York City. That's not a magic panacea, but participatory budgeting has said, "We want your ideas on where we should be making capital investments in our neighborhood and not just have council members in the back room deciding what park or what school is going to get some money but what do you think?" We've gotten hundreds of thousands of people involved in that process, and I want to try to bring some of that spirit into government.

I think you're right, that getting people engaged in and watching and understanding what's going on in elections is good. I think the fact that so many people at least said they found it easy to do their rankings is great. That's the spirit I want to bring to audits as well. We're all customers of the sanitation department.

We all have thoughts on what it's like to put our garbage out and let it stink up the sidewalks that attract rats while it's getting collected. We need expertise for sure but getting more people involved in the workings of government is something that I think we need to do a lot of if we want the city that can really face its challenges and demand change where we need it and have enough people who insist on it.

Brigid Bergin: Laura, thank you so much for calling. We'll try to track down that story and share it and thanks for your enthusiasm about election results. You feel like a kindred spirit. We're going to get one more quick caller, Thomas in Brooklyn, if you just short your question for Council Member Lander.

Thomas: Real quick, yes or no. Thank you for taking my call. I ranked you number one, Brad, with some reservations, but this is my question. Do you plan to follow through on the plan to spend billions of dollars on new "borough-based, community-based jails"? My reservation is that these jails are going to cause billions of dollars and for you as comptroller and I know that you voted for, which made me sad. Do you plan to follow through on that? Thank you.

Brad Lander: Thank you for your question, Thomas, and for your ranking and for your reservations and pushing. I really appreciate it. One thing I'll make clear, the comptroller doesn't make the decisions about budget and investments. You try to illuminate them and have there be accountability. The next mayor and the next council will be the ones to make that decision. My vote on the borough-based jails plan was, first and foremost, a vote to close Rikers and reduce the number of people that we are incarcerating while they're awaiting their fair day in court.

Right now, we have something like 15,000 cells on Rikers Island. They're only about a third filled right now because we've reduced the number of people that we incarcerate pretrial, but Rikers, for reasons that have been so seriously documented, it's just a terrible inhumane place. I want to see it closed, and I want to see as few people held awaiting trial, these are not people that have been found guilty, they're awaiting their fair day in court, as few people as we can held. I believed and I do continue to believe that the best way to do that is to build these new facilities.

I respect the point of view of people who don't want to see the money spent to build them or people that don't want us to have jails at all, but my fear was then and it remains that if the new facilities don't get build, that Rikers will wind up staying open because you're going to look at where we are in our public safety narrative right now. I don't see that it's going to work to close Rikers with no new jails and not have any facilities at all, so I would rather build a smaller, a much smaller number.

The plan is to build something like 3,500 cells in the new jails around, so we are incarcerating fewer people in less hellacious conditions. I want to keep talking to people. I want to keep hearing from people. The next mayor and council are going to make that decision, but that broad goal of a smaller corrections footprint and a less inhumane one, that'll be my guidepost as I push for what I'm investigating, what I think makes sense.

Brigid Bergin: Thomas, thanks so much for calling. Council member, I want to ask a few more questions about this period since last week. The types of conversations you've been having, first, have you spoken with Speaker Johnson and what was that conversation like?

Brad Lander: We have not yet spoken one-on-one. He conceded in a statement and on Twitter, which I was appreciative of last Tuesday. Obviously, we continue to serve in the City Council together. We have a stated meeting later this month, and our collective goal is to show up for and support our city through the pandemic to continue to focus on public health, to help make sure the schools are open safely and soundly, that budget is really monitored and spent wisely. That's my commitment, is to work together as a member of the council for the next six months with all my colleagues to make sure that we end this year and hand off the council in a really, really strong way to our successors.

Brigid Bergin: What about the presumed mayoral nominee Eric Adams? You're both from Brooklyn. How well do you know each other? What kind of conversations have you had since last week?

Brad Lander: Eric and I have a warm personal relationship. We've done a lot of work together in Brooklyn. One cause we really share is making the streets safer for all users. We've been to too many tragedies where someone was killed by a pedestrian or cyclist killed by a car crash. We've worked together on that. We actually, the first thing we did right after the election was co-named a street for Pete Hamill, the legendary journalist. That was a really beautiful event that sort of brought together older and newer and diverse parts of Brooklyn. We had fun doing that together. We spent some time together at the essential workers parade last Thursday.

We're going to be working together on the Gowanus rezoning, which is moving through the process right now and is at the level of the Brooklyn borough president before it comes to the City Council. The job of the comptroller has these two parts, you're in part the chief performance officer, it's your job to work together with the mayor to help government work better. Then you're also a chief accountability officer, and when things aren't going well, you have to tell the truth about them. That's why it's an independent elected office.

I'm going to be auditing the contracts for the COVID spending. I'm going to be looking at agencies, and the challenge is to be able to do both those things. Between any mayor and any comptroller, that balance of let's work together to make the city government function better but also when it's time to do an audit that tells the truth on something painful, you have to be able to do it. That's always there. I really bring that spirit.

I know that Eric wants to make city government work better for people across our neighborhoods, and I do as well. We'll navigate those roles building on the relationship that we have and performing the duties that the charter and the voters assigned to us.

Brigid Bergin: I want to just give one note, our producers looked up that story that our caller Laura from the Bronx mentioned earlier, it comes from a 2018 Radiolab podcast called Tweak the Vote. Credit to my colleagues in Radiolab for that great story and to our producer Sammy Ali, thank you so much Sammy for that information. Final question for you, council member. This is the first cycle we have nominated citywide elected officials in June with months before the general election. Do you plan to keep campaigning all summer? What's that going to even look like?

Brad Lander: Well, I'm very enthusiastic about having had a June instead of a September primary. Partly then you have some more time to prepare, think about the office, start to talk to, I had a chance to talk to the current comptroller, Scott Stringer, about his perspectives on the office. I'm really looking forward to learning more, digging in, having some time to get ready. I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to being able to have a little summer vacation as September election is not good for elected officials getting any time off with their families during the summer, and this means it could do a little of that, but yes, I also plan to show up, keep doing my current job.

We are still in this pandemic, we have to keep a focus on public health, this economic recovery, making sure we're investing resources and keeping small businesses open and helping new ones get open and bringing back arts and culture and paying attention. If we said during the pandemic, we see all the ways these inequalities in our cities show up in who lives and dies. If we marched last week to honor essential workers and say, we're cheering for them, but we still have an economy where so many of them don't have healthcare, don't have stable schedules, don't have workplace protections.

There's a lot to do. I've got a lot of plans for what I want to do in the City Council in my last six months as I prepare to hand off my seat to the next council member, who will likely be the remarkable Shahana Hanif, but I really want to stay focused. If we're going to have a just recovery from the COVID crisis, we're going to build a more equal city and economy. If we're going to prepare better for future crises and especially the climate crisis, boy, we need to get busy these next six months. I promise to be working hard every day to do it.

Brigid Bergin: Thank you for your work. We'll have to leave it there for now. Thank you Brooklyn Council Member Brad Lander, the likely next New York City comptroller. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Brian Lehrer. More to come.

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