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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone. Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg is my first guest today. We'll talk about crime trends in the city. In most major categories, substantially down this year so far but public perception is not keeping up. The shell game that policy plays with unhoused, mentally ill, or drug-addicted New Yorkers and some money from white-collar crime that Bragg is sinking into addressing it. The difficult decisions that DAs sometimes have to make over prosecuting people who might be in the act of defending themselves or at least think they are. People like Subway choker, Daniel Penney, and also others.

More recently in the news, there's the Manhattan Trump indictment for the alleged Stormy Daniels hush money coverup falsifying business records. Remember that? What happens to that trial date with the classified documents, and now possibly January 6th and big lie indictments coming too. I'll ask the DA for comments on the Manhattan aspects of the Gilgo Beach serial killer investigation and maybe even more than that. There's so much we could talk about. We'll see what time allows. DA Bragg, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Alvin Bragg: Thanks so much. Great to be on. Hope you're having a great summer.

Brian Lehrer: Same to you. Can I start with Gilgo Beach? The alleged killer Rex Heuermann lives on Long Island, obviously, but worked in Manhattan and the investigation included things like DNA taken from near his office and documenting cell phone pings from around there too on the disposable phones he allegedly used. Are the Manhattan parts of the investigation things your office would've been aware of or participated in?

Alvin Bragg: First I want to applaud. I think that you hit upon some of the key investigatory steps, so I want to applaud my counterpart in Suffolk and really the law enforcement work and you just hit upon it. It's just to do the human piece first. It's so disturbing to think of someone in our midst coming to Manhattan to work every day. Those dimensions you think you're talking about things that we are looking at. We've got a cold case unit that has closed some matters in recent years and is certainly going to be looking at the fact pattern there and collaborating with our counterparts in Suffolk. Just as I talked to particularly our neighbors and experienced myself, it's just bone-chilling to have someone who, obviously I'll say allegedly because it's an ongoing matter, but in our midst with those allegations for years.

Brian Lehrer: Really, it's so creepy. Then your involvement.

Alvin Bragg: Creepy is a better word than bone-chilling. Yes, creepy.

Brian Lehrer: Your involvement, or your officer's involvement, if any?

Alvin Bragg: It's a Suffolk matter. They've been doing it. We are certainly here and available to support. As you know, the conduct took place in their jurisdiction. We have that a fair amount where alleged crime takes place in one jurisdiction but the investigation leads you throughout the metro area. We always support and help and assist where asked, but the conduct took place in their jurisdiction, what they've charged and so it's their matter.

Brian Lehrer: There's a procedural question around some of that evidence collection that I wonder if you could as a general matter give our listeners some insight into Long Island Police reportedly thought they knew the killer's identity for a while but didn't arrest him right away so they could collect some of this Manhattan evidence like the DNA from a pizza box. How do prosecutors and police make that judgment for when to wait to build a stronger case and when to make the arrest because the suspect might be an ongoing threat?

Alvin Bragg: It's a really good question. Again, it's their investigation, so I won't. I think you asked it more broadly so I'll answer it more broadly which is public safety is always paramount. Someone who has done harm and may again do harm. That is the primary lens and not the strength of the case or getting one more piece of evidence. Certainly, you do have to have probable cause for the arrest and making sure that you meet that legal threshold. Obviously, you don't want to arrest someone and have them released because you don't have a good case even though colloquially, people may say, "Oh, we know he did it." Well, we obviously have to have proof at that stage for probable cause.

I would say that is the lens that certainly we use here in our office and my counterparts throughout the region really, counterparts throughout the country is public safety and safeguarding and making sure people are safe, consistent with the proof that we need to charge. We don't want to get the case bounced. That's something that is in the cases we have here in Manhattan thinking about want to bring sufficient cases to the court but certainly do not want to delay because we do not want any additional harm done ever.

Brian Lehrer: Last question about this, is it possible the Gilgo Beach suspect will be charged in Manhattan as well as Suffolk County for any aspects of the crimes he may have committed in the borough?

Alvin Bragg: At this point, as I said, it's Suffolk's matter and I think they've been doing this investigation for years and they're certainly in the lead. We will be in touch with them and coordinate the way our venue statute works. There may be things that can be brought here that can't be brought there. In which case, we might come behind them in time but right now they've got a charge matter. They've been working on this for years and we'll just be there to support them if needed.

Brian Lehrer: Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg is my guest. If you're just joining us, crime in New York City, generally. Stats that I have from City Hall as of the end of May say, shootings down 26% compared to the first five months of last year, homicides down by a third, robbery down 11%, robberies in the subway down 31%, shoplifting down 6%. Pulled these numbers from a summary in AM New York which also says the NYPD continued to reach historic numbers of gun arrests with 2,800 guns seized and 1,800 gun arrests through the first five months of the year. Assaults and car thefts are up and we'll get to that, but is Manhattan reflective of about those same percentages of decline?

Alvin Bragg: Manhattan is reflective and I would say in many areas outpacing total crime is down in Manhattan. The index crime, the aggregates of the crime that we look at. It's encouraging news for the entire city. That's certainly so in Manhattan and it's for certain casualties crimes even more so. It's very, very encouraging. We're working hard with our counterparts in government and like you said, you mentioned gun prosecutions are up. We are being very active and targeted. Particularly it's a small percentage of folks among us who are doing the harm, particularly when we think about gun violence and we're focusing in on those folks.

The numbers are very encouraging and we're going to keep on working because there's no level of unsafety that is tolerable. It's encouraging, but we know we have more work to do and we're going to keep on doing it. That's what motivates me, to come to work every single day. We're going to keep on plugging away.

Brian Lehrer: Yet a recent Sienna poll found nearly 40% of New Yorkers have witnessed violent or threatening behavior among others in a public setting. 41% say they have, "Never been this worried about their personal safety as they are today." Those are high percentages. How do you square the perception and the reality?

Alvin Bragg: I squared by saying we keep on doing the work. We are coming out as you know and your listeners know national crime spike during COVID, dislocations of almost all parts of society. I think people are feeling and seeing as you said in the survey things and we've got to be responsive to that. It's not enough. The data that you just said is something that we use as metrics and I'm very encouraged by it but that's not enough. My job is not only to deliver and help deliver safety but how people feel is important. I'm a glass-half-full kind of person. I think that as these numbers continue, we had, for example, shootings and homicides down last year.

The numbers you said are therefore down further this year from last year. I think another year like this and I will say for the neighborhoods I go into where particularly for shootings are down, that's something that those communities feel and are giving me feedback on. I think that there are pockets of folks who are saying, I'm leaving the data but we're certainly not going to rest until everyone feels that way. I think that will happen as we get not just year over year, but year over year, over year, over year. That's my job. We've got 1,500 committed public servants focused on not just safety but that everyone feels safe because it's so important and you mentioned the trains.

Those are the arteries that make New York go. Transit crime is down in Manhattan 7%. I want everyone to feel safe. You got to feel safe going to work and going to get your groceries. We're just going to keep working. We're going to keep working hard.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some calls and text message questions for Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg, 212-433-WNYC on the phone or with a text message. We'll watch our texts go by. 212-433-9692. I've had callers who say, and maybe somebody will call and say something like this now, I don't know, that crime may be less than in some decades past, let's say. What's different is the randomness of violent crime by people with mental illness in public places that they would have considered pretty safe places in the past, like major subway stations and also in generally safer, maybe more affluent neighborhoods.

That random attack possibility that leaves people anxious in a different way than the lowest crime years under de Blasio just before the pandemic. Do you have stats that can either confirm or refute an increase in random attacks to any degree? I think you would generally say most violent crime occurs between people who know each other. Is that any statistically less true today than before 2020?

Alvin Bragg: I do not have statistics at hand on that specific issue, but what I can say is qualitatively and anecdotally from my work, that is an issue that is very significant that we're seeing. I obviously see and engage in this every day, that randomness is very, very hard for our work. The gun violence and those numbers that we've driven down, in part, is because we know who the drivers of gun violence are. We've structured investigations to target that conduct, and we can be very surgical, if you will. We can map out an investigation.

We can get up on a wire tap. We could do a search warrant. The stranger-to-stranger assault, which we are, I would say, just might have seen more of compared to the years you said, the 2016 or so, are disconcerting. We're certainly prosecuting those cases, and holding people accountable. Yes, the experience of your callers comports with what we're seeing. I would say in this space, in addition to the prosecutions, I think it's really important to talk about some of the other work we're doing. One, we have a phenomenal witness aid unit made of counselors and advocates who are working with people who are victims of crime, helping them process that trauma.

That's so key, obviously, on a personal level, and that's available, and I want the public to know that's a resource available here for my office kind of phenomenal professionals with social service backgrounds. Then we have invested $6 million in a neighborhood navigator program with experts who were working closely with our communities, with people struggling, people in need in our communities and connecting them voluntarily to help navigate and connect with services. We are focused on-- I'm not to suggest that every folks in need are doing harm because we know the statistics show that folks in need are not. There's nowhere near a one-to-one there, and those folks are also likely to be harmed.

I think it goes to the general conversation and thought about people viewing disorder and viewing other people in distress, and we're a caring borough, and we want to address that. We are doing that. I think in addition to obviously, holding people accountable, who do these assaults, supporting those New Yorkers who are in distress, committing and working with our advocates, our counselors, and having folks out in the street, not just on the courthouse, is a part of the medium to long term solution on that.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call that's, I think, sort of along these lines. Chris in Queens, you're on WNYC with Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, DA Bragg. I'm a conductor with the New York City transit and constantly, very frequently, almost on a daily basis, my brothers and sisters, conductors, train operators, cleaners, are spat on or have objects tossed at them, or assaulted, and nothing happens. They get a DAT, Desk Appearance Ticket. A lot of times, they don't even see the judge all the time. They're released and put right back on the streets and doing the same thing. I think Mr. Bragg, respectfully, can tell how crime is down. I don't see a person. I don't think many New Yorkers did. A lot of us do view New York as lawless, particularly in the subways.

I think that there's nothing being done. If you spit on the conductor, is harassment. It's a misdemeanor. A lot of times, if they punch one of us, assault on us is downgraded to a misdemeanor. I like to know, in specific terms, what is DA Bragg and these other DAs doing to combat this crime in the subways and assault on MTA workers. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Chris. DA Bragg?

Alvin Bragg: Sure. Thanks, Chris. First, I want to thank you for your service. Earlier, I called the trains, the arteries, and so you're a conductor, you're making our system go. I'm very concerned about mentioning of the assaults. I don't know, Brian, if you have his information, I would love to follow up. Obviously he knows of any specific ones in Manhattan, we can follow up.

Brian Lehrer: We can do that, Chris. If you want to leave your contact information off the air, we'll match you up with DA Bragg's office. Go ahead, DA.

Alvin Bragg: Great. I appreciate that. We just expanded our worker protection unit. We've done a lot in the construction industry. This is a worker safety issue. If our transit conductors are being assaulted, these are cases that we take seriously. Chris mentioned the classifications. The way our assault statute works is that the harm done, so if someone is seriously injured, then it's a felony. If there's just physical injury, and I mean to minimize it, but that's the structure of our statute, it's a lower charge. What we do in all our cases is we're looking at the facts and applying it to the law. Our safety of our transit workers is important. If there's the things in Manhattan that Chris knows about, we're certainly want to follow up on and want to keep our transit conductors safe.

Brian Lehrer: Did you mean to say if there's minimal injury? I think you said physical injury, it's a lower statute. I don't want you to get misquoted in the post. [chuckles]

Alvin Bragg: The language of the statute is actually physical injury.

Brian Lehrer: What does that mean?

Alvin Bragg: That is something that is the subject of a lot of litigation. One of the things that we do in these, we're looking at medical records. Oftentimes, we'll have a punch thrown and there's something like redness or swelling and that'll be assault in the third degree, something for the more serious charges. The case law requires something that is more of a long term injury, disfigurement, something that can be more serious is what gets you to those higher charges. It really is pegged to the injuries sustained by the person, which I think as a general matter makes sense, but sometimes is not commensurate.

You could have someone who throws 10 punches or attempts to throw 10 punches, but does not really result in significant injury. We charge the cases, obviously, as the law requires. That may be, as I listen to the way Chris framed the question, something that is resulting in what he's seeing.

Brian Lehrer: Chris did leave his contact information. We'll get that to your office and set you two up to be in contact with each other about how the subway workers are treated. Is this whole topic that we've been on for the last few minutes through Chris's call an example of the tension that you and other DAs are experiencing now between your twin missions of keeping the city safe, helping the NYPD and other agencies to have crime go down from its recent peak, and at the same time, continue to fight mass incarceration and not imprison people or jail people for things that are minor that they might have been jailed for in the past?

Alvin Bragg: That's certainly something we're thinking about. We've got to keep New York safe. As I mentioned, the mental health interventions, we're also using our alternative incarceration courts, drug treatment and mental health treatment, those as services we're using more. I think it's very case-specific. We have to look at the nature of the harm done and make sure that there's accountability. Then also what's driving the person to do it. If it's something that we can address through an intervention like mental health treatment or drug treatment, that's certainly something we're doing. We're doing more of in Manhattan because I think it takes that whole menu and range of interventions to deliver true enduring safety. I think you really put your finger on I was going to say that hits the nail on the head.

Brian Lehrer: In that context why don't you take a minute and tell us about your new initiative that I know you announced just recently using money seized in asset forfeitures? I think these are mostly in white collar crimes to help fund a mental health program in the borough.

Alvin Bragg: Yes. I appreciate it. We just got off to a launch recently and you're exactly correct. It's money taken in our forfeiture from banks in cases. We've recently invested $6 million, so our neighborhood navigator programs. Experts, folks who are steeped in interventions and communities, know the communities have the grants and are going to be working closely with community partners with those on the ground to connect with people struggling with homelessness, poverty, mental health to connect them in a voluntary manner. Help them navigate our complex systems.

This is part of the Public Safety Network and connecting with people in distress before there's a case in my office, before they're in the system, so to speak, forming relationships, building trust, and getting them connected to the services they need. One of the many things that we're doing, we mentioned a couple of others, but I think a really key part to the public safety issues we're seeing and more broadly the disorder and just really helping to move us forward from the dislocations of COVID.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg. We'll get to the Manhattan Trump prosecution. I'm going to ask the DA what happens with the classified documents prosecution. They've now set a trial date. Which one goes first? How do they work this out between the agencies? We know that January 6th related indictments might be coming. Media reports say they are very likely to come and probably right around the corner. Maybe even an indictment from Georgia by the end of the summer. That's considered likely. How does this all fit in with what's going on in Manhattan? More of your calls from Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg, stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg. Did you see that study that I just mentioned in the promo for tomorrow show from Crown Heights by the Center for Justice Innovation? They found that fear is the overwhelming reason that young people there carry guns. 75% of those aged 15 to 25 who carry cited to protect themselves from crime rather than to commit crime. Did you see that? Does that finding exemplify why you are ambivalent about simple gun possession charges?

Alvin Bragg: I did see it. Look, I've lived it in part. Growing up in Harlem in the '80s, I was shot at. I had a semi-automatic weapon pointed at me, and certainly know the trauma of that, and you carry it around with you for years. We have been trying to address that and I'll put a statistic on it, which to me is one of the most sobering statistics. 97% of shooting victims in our city are Black and Latino, many of them men and boys.

97% Black and Latino, and so what we are doing at the Manhattan District Attorney's Office is recognizing that, that lived experience and that data that supports those experiences, and I mentioned our advocates and counselors in-house earlier our Witness Aid Service Unit. We have a men of color group, advocates social workers who are men of color, who are reaching out and working with our boys and our men of color who have been the victims of gun violence, making sure to help address their trauma for them individually.

Then so that trauma doesn't metastasize and become something that affects not just the person, but the family and the entire neighborhood. I'm so proud of that work. We're growing it. I've seen the sort of fruits of it. I've sat in meetings when they've been counseling younger boys and men. That is such an important piece of our work, and importantly what I know from lived experience and also from the research is I think sometimes we try to nicely divide, "Oh, look, this person is a gun violence victim and this is someone who's done harm." What we see in our practice and what I saw growing up, we can have someone who on Monday is a witness to a gun incident, on Wednesday is a victim, and on Friday is a defendant.

Having people with expertise are men of color group connecting with folks processing that trauma, when they're a witness, before become someone that's doing harm. Not to suggest that will necessarily mean that someone does harm, but addressing that trauma. Again, that's public safety work addressing that trauma before it metastasized and also obviously it's humane but they go hand-in-hand.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned in the intro the NYPD stats showing large numbers of gun arrests and gun seizures. One of the things that was controversial when you were running for DA and in your first days in office, and we've talked about this before, was your intention to do less prosecuting of illegal gun possession without an underlying crime. Are you in conflict with the NYPD on this quickly rising number of gun possession charges?

Alvin Bragg: No. Look, we take sort of every case on its merits and the facts. Our gun prosecutions are up 20%. There is a lot of illegal gun activity and we are responding to it. I think it's one of the reasons that shootings and homicides are down in Manhattan because of that work. What we are trying to do is laser in, and are doing, are lasering in on the folks who are doing the most harm. Then we are also assessing every case on its facts.

As the report you talked about indicates, every case isn't the same. There are folks who are, and we see sobering video and have sobering fact patterns, people who are picking up guns and shooting. That's different from other fact patterns. What we're doing is intensely engaging in a fact born analysis. Yes, that may sometimes lead to disagreements with others who are our partners, but we do it based on some of the evidence and the facts in each case.

Brian Lehrer: Paul, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg. Hi, Paul.

Paul: Yes. Hello. I have a question about the Jordan Neely killing. It seems to me that there are two critical points that have not been well addressed in the press. The first being whether Neely was actually doing something that a reasonable person would think was threatening. I'm wondering how successful the DA's office has been in finding and interviewing people who are actually on that train. The second point is whether Penney knew that he was applying lethal force. I Googled Marine Corps Hand-To-Hand combat training, and it seems pretty certain that he was instructed in choke holds. I would like to know if the DA's office has investigated whether that instruction defines him as lethal force.

Brian Lehrer: Paul, thank you very much. DA Bragg?

Alvin Bragg: Thank you, Paul. This is an active matter where we've charged Mr. Penney with manslaughter. I can't talk in chapter and verse about what we do. I don't want to prejudice that ongoing litigation, but what I can say is we did an exhaustive investigation beforehand. Investigations as a general matter include you talking to witnesses, looking at video, doing interviews, and so here the caller, I believe his name was Paul talked about issues that are salient. We looked at in a very rigorous way, the evidence through some of the investigative techniques he mentioned and many more. The grand jury returned an indictment for manslaughter, and that case is on track for motions and potentially for trial.

Brian Lehrer: Kind of related, you continue to be the target of conservative media critiques for certain prosecutions, most recently of an NYPD officer for punching someone who was allegedly resisting while the cop is trying to remove him from an Apple store on the upper West side for being unruly. A CVS worker indicted for assaulting an alleged shoplifter and whatever altercation was taking place there. The critique is you indicted the good guys trying to restrain the bad guys in those cases, and it relates to the way you sometimes get critiqued for prosecuting Daniel Penny. Anything you can say publicly about those specific two incidents?

Alvin Bragg: Sure. I'll start with the police officer case. Look, a lot of the work we've talked about this morning has been in partnership, almost all of it, with NYPD and those numbers and shootings and homicides. We're not doing those investigations by ourselves. I've always been mindful. I've been a prosecutor since 2003. Always been mindful. We may do the search for an application at our desk, but then a member of law enforcement goes out and puts themselves in harm's way. I'm mindful of that.

The corollary of that is that when those sworn uphold the law break it we hold them accountable. As you and some of listeners will know, I represented Eric Garner's mother and sister in a case against the city. I've done a lot of civil rights work. I view that as public safety work too. I mentioned earlier the trust factor. We know that after Eric Garner and George Floyd calls to 911 went down and affected communities.

Those sworn to uphold the law, and he's entitled to his day in court like everyone else so we'll go forward. We're going to litigate, but we're not going to shy away from doing those cases which are fundamentally about rights, but also fundamentally about our public safety and making sure that folks have trusted it. We need that trust for witnesses and victims to come forward.

The other matter which involved a civilian. It's the same thing I talked about earlier, and it's the same thing in all of our cases. We're not trying to outpace social media and we cannot, nor will we even attempt to respond to the various things said in the public domain. Our job is to look at the facts and apply them to the law. That requires a rigorous investigation. We do that, and then as you divided, so the good guys and the bad guys, look, we're looking at the facts of each individual instance.

That's our job. My job isn't to be popular. My job isn't to try to look at the wins of whether it be conservative or someone from other kind of political orientation. Our job is to look at the facts, apply the law. I've been doing that since 2003, and I've been doing it as a prosecutor. I've been doing it as a civil rights lawyer, and I'm going to keep on doing it.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Sharon, in Manhattan. You're on WNYC with Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg. Hi, Sharon. Sharon, you're there. Sharon once, Sharon twice. Sorry about that. She was going to ask about rapes and what the latest stats you have are on rape in Manhattan or in the city and if those are going down along with other violent crimes this year. What can you tell us?

Alvin Bragg: Certainly, and obviously one of the most important crimes we prosecute. Rape is down 32% in Manhattan. We in the office have restructured. We have a new division focused on our special victims. In particular, we've re-configured our sexual assault practice. Over the last six to nine months have done some incredibly important and challenging rape trials, and getting convictions.

It's one of the most sobering parts of our practice. The numbers are down which I think is encouraging, but I'll also add this is rape and sexual assault, most under-reported violent crime in America. I'm encouraged that the numbers are down, but we know that they've been historically under-reported. What we're trying to do, and I'll go back to our witness aid services unit. I mentioned the men of color. They do a tremendous amount of work in our sex crimes and our domestic violence crimes and intimate partner violence.

In addition to bringing challenging cases and getting convictions, we're focusing on making sure that the practice is focused on the survivors of those crimes and delivering treatment and services and procedural justice as well. Significant focus, the numbers, as I said, down 32%, but as in the other areas, we know we have more work to do, and particularly so here because it's historically an under-reported crime.

Brian Lehrer: I know we're at the end of our time. Can I sneak in that one Trump question? You have the indictment in Manhattan for the alleged Stormy Daniels hush money coverup, falsifying business records. What happens to your trial date with the classified documents and now possibly January 6th related indictments coming?

Alvin Bragg: Right now we have two charge cases and two trial dates. We are scheduled for trial March 25th. What I'll refer to as the Mar-a-Lago document case is set for trial a couple of months after. That's where we are. I heard you say in the promo that there may be other cases coming. If and when that happens, we'll see what happens to the schedule. We have a firm trial date. Our judge has been clear about that.

Based upon experience, I've been a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor, and now obviously local. In matters like this, judges will confer and I take a very broad lens on justice, will obviously follow the directives of our court, but won't sit on ceremony in terms of what was charged first or things like that. If and when that's presented. There's been no other case. The two charged cases have trial dates, but our trial judge is reached out to by another judge, we'll obviously consider everything in its totality.

Brian Lehrer: It's the judges who do that, not you and the other prosecutors.

Alvin Bragg: Well, ultimately the judges set the trial schedule. I will say that, as a federal prosecutor, as a state prosecutor, have had times where you are doing schedule coordination and going to the bench with saying, "Your honor, there are matters in a number of jurisdictions." Sometimes the judges don't know about it. Obviously, in this case, I think everyone will know about it if and when something happens. Ultimately, the judge sets the schedule and we will follow the court's lead, but we'll take a broad look at what justice requires.

Brian Lehrer: Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg, we always appreciate that you come on and answer my questions, answer listeners' questions. Thank you very much.

Alvin Bragg: Thank you so much. Have a great day. Always a pleasure to talk to you.

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