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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Secretary of State Antony Blinken will visit Israel and the Israeli-occupied West Bank on his latest trip to the region, which begins tomorrow. He will meet with both Israeli and Palestinian officials. The West Bank is where the Palestinian Authority is based. It's only about the size of the state of Delaware for those of you who never really looked at a map of the region. The population these days is usually reported as around 3 million Palestinians and around 700,000 Israeli settlers.

The headline in the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz says with all eyes on Gaza, West Bank Palestinians are facing unprecedented violence. Haaretz said since October 7th, more than 200 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank. Reuters says killed by Israeli security forces or settlers. Haaretz says the security forces have allowed settlers to threaten and attack West Bank residents without consequence. The New York Times adds that as of late October, more than 2,000 Palestinians in the West Bank had been injured, and nearly 1,000 forcibly displaced by Israeli forces and settlers, that from the New York Times.

Haaretz also reports that Israeli security forces, the IDF have detained a huge number of people in mass arrests of Palestinians suspected of being part of Hamas. The Times of Israel quotes the IDF saying, "Troops have arrested some 2,000 wanted Palestinians across the West Bank, including more than 1,100 affiliated with Hamas since October 7th.” The Jerusalem Post reports that Hamas too has a post-October 7th game plan in the West Bank. For example, it says, "As prisoners were released by Israel on Friday, people in the West Bank chanted support for Hamas. This was the prize, they put 'prize' that Hamas wanted since October 7th. The goal was for Hamas to get attention in the region and globally and for Iran and Hamas backers to grow their influence in the West Bank," that from the Jerusalem Post.

Who is the Palestinian Authority that Blinken will be meeting with this week? The New York Times described it last week as controlling large parts of the West Bank in close coordination with Israel. The Times says the Authority is deeply unpopular even where it has control in the West Bank because it is seen as a subcontractor to the long Israeli occupation. The Times used that word, ‘subcontractor’. But The Times says Blinken and President Biden want to revitalize Palestinian Authority to run Gaza as well as the West Bank when the current fighting in Gaza is over.

Let's talk more about the West Bank now with West Bank and Jordan-based journalist, Dalia Hatuqa, who has written for many publications, including The Atlantic, The Washington Post, Time Magazine, The Economist, and others. Most recently, she was featured last week in Vox's Daily News podcast called Today Explained in an episode called Inside the Occupied West Bank. She joins us today from Amman, Jordan. Dalia, thanks so much for some time today. Hello from New York, and welcome to WNYC.

Dalia Hatuqa: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start on the Haaretz description of West Bank Palestinians facing unprecedented violence since October 7th and the conclusion by various news organizations that settlers, private citizens are being allowed to intimidate attack, and displace Palestinians from their homes as Haaretz put it, without consequence. How would you begin to describe how the most aggressive wing of the settler population has changed their behavior since October 7th?

Dalia Hatuqa: I would start a little bit before October 7th because that's been working towards the violence that has escalated after that. Right before the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th, we had in the West Bank, one of the most violent periods for the territory since 2005. There were at least 120 West Bank Palestinians who were killed this year. This is according to the UN. This is what I would call a baseline in the West Bank. Not a lot of people I guess know this or maybe don't want to acknowledge it, but there's a steady stream of violence against Palestinians in the West Bank long before October 7th.

Before that, there was an average killing of one Palestinian a day. Each day, mostly children, boys, or young men are being killed. For example, today there were two children that were shot dead in the West Bank city of Jenin. Their deaths are almost always captured on camera. The army doesn't investigate their killing, even though many, like I said, their deaths are captured or they're killed in broad daylight.

There's also the settler violence. If we look at UN statistics, in nearly half of all attacks, Israeli forces are either accompanying or actively supporting the attackers, and settler attacks are commonplace. For example, even myself, I have a hard time going out places that are beyond the center of the city of Ramallah where I live, for example, because settler attacks on people who are harvesting crops during the olive season, which is right now, or just having a picnic or going on a hike. These are the times where you are most likely to get attacked.

Brian Lehrer: The displacement aspect of this, and backing up what you said, that this was going on to some degree before October 7th and that it appears to be an escalation of something that was already happening. As I was reading up on this, a few weeks before the October 7th attack, I saw during September of this year, the AP had a story called UN Reports say West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022. Can you describe how that happens? What happens that forces people to abandon their homes?

Dalia Hatuqa: Basically, people see that they're not safe, that their existence and presence is somehow being challenged. That's when mass forced displacement takes place. For example, what's happening right now is Israeli settlers are seeing an opportunity with global attention being turned to the situation in Gaza to step up these efforts to displace people. What happens is, mostly these attacks are focused on herding or Bedouin communities. The settlers come in. What they do is sometimes they destroy let's say the shacks or the tents that the Palestinians live in. They pour cement into the water wells that the herding communities use for themselves and for the animals that they have, things of that nature.

What happens is that Palestinians, especially with the focus being elsewhere, they feel like there's nobody out there to support them, obviously, not the Israeli government, which is actually supporting the settlers or the Palestinian Authority, which doesn't have much authority, so to speak. That's why since October 7th, for example, the UN has been warning about this. They've said that at least 1,000 people, around 400 of them children have been displaced because of settler violence.

They tend to be herding and Bedouins communities, like I said. What happens is that they just end up moving to another place, but they face the same consequences because a lot of these areas that they move to are surrounded by settlements that are located at the top of hills most of the time.

Brian Lehrer: You said in The Vox Today Explained Podcast that settler communities tend to be at the tops of hills and areas that effectively encircle Palestinian communities. Can you describe that geography further, make that a little visual for our listeners, like who lives where on the West Bank more or less, and the politics of elevation and encirclement?

Dalia Hatuqa: Sure. Think of the West Bank as having these sprawling hills, lots of hills, and at the top of these hills, you see these red dots. These red dots are basically the, what do you call it, like rooftops of the houses of settlers. Because they're at the top, they have the vantage point of looking down at the valley or the communities that are at a less- -elevated area.

Obviously, when you're up at that point, you have the vantage point of being able to see around you, see better, know where you're going. Also, the settlements, think of communities where people go to retire in say Florida, there's like pools, there's a lot of greenery. The water that is often given to settlements is a very much higher than the amount of water that's given to the West Bank population, for example.

In the summer, we have lots of issues with water. We don't have much like to have a shower every single day. And this is me, living in Ramallah where I'm way more privileged than people who live in the vicinity of settlements. What you see is, as soon as you go to the West Bank, you see these red spots, and you know that these settlements, and then you look at the bottom, and then you see the villages, and they're being encircled by these settlements.

Brian Lehrer: This widely reported observation that the settlers are allowed to do these things, displacement attacks and other kinds of intimidation as Haaretz put it, without consequence. Why does the Israeli government allow that or see that in their interest? Presumably, private citizen vigilantes, if that's the right word, aren’t supposed to be allowed to do things like that.

Dalia Hatuqa: Because ultimately, the settlers are doing the bidding of the Israeli government. The idea we have right now, half a million settlers living in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Any idea of a solution to the conflict, namely, the two-state solution that President Biden, for example, keeps talking about, that's out of the question. You can't have a two-state solution with half a million Israelis living on the land that's supposed to be given to Palestinians for a state.

What we have right now in the West Bank, as I mentioned earlier, is the sentiment that's permeating all around. It's one of loneliness, isolation, but also vulnerability and fear because at the end of the day, the settlers they're being given weapons and ammunition by, for example, Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, who is a settler himself. He's been handing out these weapons along with his team to, as you mentioned, these little groups, vigilantes or whatever you want to call them.

Because at the end of the day, what they're doing is they're living illegally on land that's not supposed to be for them. They obviously know that ultimately, this land could be taken away from them at any point and they want to hold on to it using lethal weapon if necessary.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls if you want on the West Bank since October 7th, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for journalist Dalia Hatuqa, 212-433-9692, call or text. I mentioned in the intro the Jerusalem Post report that Hamas too has its post-October 7th West Bank strategy. To repeat some of that, the Jerusalem Post reported that as prisoners were released by Israel, this was last Friday, people in the West Bank chanted support for Hamas. This was the price that Hamas wanted since October 7th. Their goal was to get attention in the region and globally, and for Iran and Hamas backers to grow their influence in the West Bank. That quote from the Jerusalem Post.

How much do you agree with that analysis of Hamas's goal and the indication that that increase in support in the West Bank that they're seeking is happening to any meaningful degree because of what's happening in Gaza?

Dalia Hatuqa: I don't think that's very accurate because ultimately, Hamas does not have much support in the West Bank, and namely because most of its leaders have been either detained by Israeli forces or they've been detained by the Palestinian Authority, which does the work for the Israelis because they have something that's called security coordination, whereby the Palestinian Authority works very closely with the Israelis to ensure that Hamas leaders are either in prison or they're being silent and not doing anything.

I think that the Jerusalem Post is maybe mentioning something that happened a few days ago, which is when some people were released. They chanted for Hamas because ultimately, Hamas is the one that got them released, but I don’t see, like when there are protests and when there are demonstrations going on in the West Bank, I don't see Hamas flags. I don't see people cheering for him. I think it's a little inaccurate to say that this is how Palestinians feel.

Ultimately, Palestinians do not want to see the kind of war that's going on in Gaza at the moment, and so feelings are mixed. There's a lot going on in terms of, we don't want this war, but at the same time, people aren't really sure how to feel about the attack that happened. A lot of people condemn it, but at the same time, you see people being like, "Okay, one crime does not justify the killing of 15,000 people." There are a lot of mixed feelings, and there's a lot of nuance, and I don't think one line in the Jerusalem Post gives much to the listeners or to readers.

Brian Lehrer: Well, if Israel's goal is to wipe out Hamas militarily in Gaza to protect more October 7ths, some have said a side effect of killing so many civilians in Gaza may well be a radicalization of the West Bank population rather than weakening the threat that Hamas had already posed speaking long term. And that New York Times characterization of the West Bank Palestinian relationship with the Palestinian Authority, seeing the Authority as subcontractors of the Israeli government, as The Times put it, do you think pre-October 7th, Hamas was becoming more popular than the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank because Hamas was seen as resistors rather than subcontractors?

Dalia Hatuqa: I think all this time, pre-October 7th-- and we can talk about post-October 7th in a little bit, but the Palestinian leadership, I'm talking about the Palestinian Authority, has not been popular for a very long time. It's namely because the head of the Palestinian Authority has been president for some 15 years. There haven't been any elections. To Palestinians, the fact that this 87-year-old man, Mahmoud Abbas, who has presided over the PA since 2005, he's weak, he's unpopular, but he's also sabotaged several opportunities for local elections to find a successor.

He also has a tumultuous relationship with Hamas, because after Hamas won elections in 2006, its armed wing and Abbas's Fatah Party waged intense street battles for months across Gaza. Ever since, there have been many attempts to reconcile them, but they haven't come to fruition. If you look at some of the-- or actually, most of the polls that have come out, including one that's most recent, more than 80% of Palestinians want Mahmoud Abbas to step aside and make room for a new leader, because Palestinians feel that they don't speak to their aspirations. Whereas the relationship with Hamas is a little more complicated, because West Bankers do not want the kind of civil or civilian life that Hamas supports.

The West Bank is a much more "free" let's say, people have more room to be what they want, dress however they want, and things of that nature and I don't think--

Brian Lehrer: Right. More secular rights, that kind of thing.

Dalia Hatuqa: Yes, exactly. Obviously, the fact that Hamas does not work with Israel is a bonus point for Hamas.

Brian Lehrer: For them. Listener writes in a text message, "Something I always struggle to understand is why the settlers even want to move into the West Bank given all the potential for conflict and confrontation compared to Israel itself. Is there not enough land for them already in Israel proper?" What would you say to that listener's question?

Dalia Hatuqa: That's a very good question, and in a way, the listener answers it himself or herself. Because ultimately, if you speak to settlers, many of them are very religious and they believe that this land was given to them by God. Once you have a religious kind of reasoning, it’s very hard to reason with people, and this is my own personal interpretation, it's very hard to reason with people when they say things like, "God has given us this land," whereas for some other people, like for some other settlers, their reasons are economic.

A lot of them go there with the promise that the Israeli government will give them these beautiful homes, access to all kinds of schooling for their children, pools, houses, electricity, water, things that we in the West Bank are lacking a lot of the times, and so for them it's an economic issue. You've got the religious, the economic, and some people just feel like all of it is the land of Israel and they should be there.

Brian Lehrer: Rebecca in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for calling in.

Rebecca: Yes. Thank you so much. I appreciate what the speaker is sharing. And my concern-- Of course I do not in any way support any violence by a Jewish person living in the West Bank or by an Arab person living in the West Bank or living else elsewhere. What I'm feeling in this conversation is that there's a lack of education about the fact that there's also violent acts that are perpetrated by Arabs who live in the region like shootings of a mother and daughter sitting in a car, shootings of people as they're driving by, stabbings, car rammings.

While I think that absolutely any Jewish person should be held responsible for any violence or anything like that, I'm wondering why that's not part of the discussion. It seems a little bit troubling to me that it's a narrative kind of thing as opposed to actually looking at historical facts. These are facts. Everyone knows that many Palestinians carry out these behaviors. In addition, there’s-

Brian Lehrer: Rebecca,--

Rebecca: -an omission of the fact that there are-

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Rebecca: -basically Oslo Accords.

Dalia Hatuqa: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: No, go ahead. I'm sorry, I thought you were done, but go ahead.

Rebecca: There's no discussion of regions upon which at the current moment that's the agreement that oversees the area because the Palestinians had walked away from the agreements. But at this moment, the Oslo Accords and the zones of A, B, and C are what determines where people can live. I think by not educating about that and having a narration about where people setting up tents, and then they're being removed and relocated. Part of the discussion needs to be what actually is historical fact on the ground in terms of the current agreement. Hopefully, in the future there would be a different agreement where there'd be a great agreement between the people both sides.

Brian Lehrer: Right.

Rebecca: But currently, this is the agreement. Not to include that in the discussion and make it-- Again, it's always a victim-oppressor claim here that Israelis and Jews are always the oppressor and victims are always the Palestinians. They're the only victims and they're only victims, and that's just unfair.

Brian Lehrer: Rebecca, thank you for your call. Those were all fair questions. I don't think on this show we present Palestinians as the only victims. We’ve certainly talked a tremendous amount about October 7th and all of that. Dalia, Rebecca raises a fair question about Palestinian violence in the West Bank. I cited so many US and Israeli news organizations in the intro who I think were making the point that the overwhelming dynamic in the West Bank is the settler violence and the settler encroachment on more and more land. That's the big thing that's taking place in recent years.

I don't want to present a false equivalency where there isn't an equivalency. All the reporting by mainstream US and Israeli news organization seems to be that that's the dominant thing, but there is also Palestinian West Bank resident violence, individual incidents like the one that the caller cited that happens. I saw just the other day, there was a reported execution of some Palestinians by other Palestinians. Those executed were accused of being collaborators with Israel. It's complicated, right?

Dalia Hatuqa: Rebecca mentioned the Oslo Accords and she talks about areas A, B, and C. These are areas that the West Bank is carved into and each area has a specific designation. Area A, for example, has allegedly full security and administrative-- The PA, the Palestinian Authority has full security and administrative power in that area, for example. But Israel has long also called the Oslo Accords dead. They've used that word. So to them, the Oslo Accords do not exist. At that point, this is how we're living. We're living without any framework that either the Israelis or the Palestinians can abide by.

If we want to talk about history, we're going to have to go back in time to 1948. I don't know if, and I don't think we have enough time to discuss that, but you're talking about systemic violence that's been exercised against a population since 1948. Yes, when you exercise that kind of violence, the violence will breed violence. I'm not saying that's okay, this is not a justification, but what I am saying is that there is context to things.

When people see their fathers, and mothers, and brothers, and whomever being killed, I don't know, because again, I'm privileged in the fact that my family has been safe all this time. I don't know what makes people do the things they do once they've been subjected to the kind of systemic violence that Israel has subjected Palestinians to for more than 50 years,

Brian Lehrer: It goes around and Israelis will say they've also been subjected to violence by Arab states and by Hamas rejectionists, et cetera, et cetera, and it goes around, and around, and around. Last question, when Secretary of State Blinken visits the West Bank this week, the State Department official itinerary says in addition to working toward an extended truce, that he ‘Will also discuss the principles he outlined in Tokyo on November 8th, tangible steps to further the creation of a future Palestinian state’. That's the State Department's own language.

We just have one minute left, but do you have any indication what the US plan for a two-state solution is, which as you said, and as so many people say seems so far from reality now for so many reasons?

Dalia Hatuqa: I don't think the Americans know themselves. People around Biden are probably whispering some things in his ear that we probably talked about since 2014, since the peace talks were shut down. I think what they're going to try to do is to say, "Okay, let's get the peace negotiations going," but how do you do that? How do you do that after so much bloodshed has been spilled? Honestly, I think Secretary Blinken, his heart is in the right place, but he is doing something that's not going to work out, unfortunately. That's my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: Well, we will see. Journalist Dalia Hatuqa, who is based in the West Bank and in Jordan, and who has reported for The Atlantic, and Time Magazine, and The Washington Post, and The Economist, among others, most recently before this appearance, in Vox's daily news podcast last week called Today Explained on the West Bank in particular. Thank you very much for joining us.

Dalia Hatuqa: Thank you.

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