[music]

Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin, filling in for Brian today. Now, we'll look at a new doctrine, released by the Vatican that explores the concept of human dignity. Earlier this week, the Vatican published a 25-page document called Infinite Dignity, asserting the principle that every human person possesses an infinite dignity, inalienably grounded in his or her very being, which prevails in and beyond every circumstance, state, or situation the person may ever encounter.

That, of course, a quote from the document. However, progressives within the Catholic Church argue that the document contradicts this principle when it concerns the transgender community. Among the list of threats to human dignity, the church lumps sex change in with poverty, war, and the struggles of migrants. Now, one of these things doesn't seem quite like the others. We'll look at the church's Infinite Dignity document, as well as its positions on gender theory, surrogacy, and other issues it deems great threats to humanity. Joining us now is Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry. Welcome to WNYC.

Francis DeBernardo: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Brigid Bergin: Francis, I hope you can help guide us through this document a little bit, both your views on it and, hopefully, to some extent what you think the church is trying to convey in it. My first question is, what is human dignity? What significance does it hold for the Catholic Church?

Francis DeBernardo: That's a good question. The Catholic Church has developed what it calls its social teaching from the 19th century on to the current day. At the base of the Catholic social teaching is that every human being has human dignity. Every human being is created in the image and likeness of God. No matter what happens to a person in life, no matter if they're rich or poor, if they have committed crimes, if they are sick or disabled, no matter what condition someone is in, they have human dignity.

That dignity must be respected and honored. The church has taught that for over a century and is now applying it to new situations or oath. This document had a beautiful explanation of the church's teaching on human dignity. Unfortunately, they did not apply those same teachings when it came to transgender or non-binary people.

Brigid Bergin: Francis, I know that you reviewed this document and wrote a response on the website of your organization, New Ways Ministry, which does work building bridges between the LGBTQ community and the Catholic Church since 1977. This work you've been doing for a very long time. Can you outline some of the issues the church sees as threats to, excuse me, human dignity as expressed in this document?

Francis DeBernado: They listed about seven or eight of them. One is war, one is poverty, one is the migration problem. An unusual one that they added that has never been mentioned in Catholic discussions before is what they call digital violations, cyberbullying, and problems with how social media affects human dignity. I thought that was great, great development. Then they added the two dealing with transgender or non-binary people, something called gender theory, which they never really define, but which I think we could safely assume means that they don't like new understanding and new realities about gender.

Then also something that they call sex change, which even using that term shows their lack of information about transgender people where most would call it gender transition.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, I'd like to open the phones to members of the LGBTQ community who are Catholic. What are your reactions to the Vatican's Infinite Dignity document? How do you maintain your faith when the institutional church maybe invalidates aspects of your identity? Does that test your faith? What do you fear when you hear the church describing sex change as a threat to human dignity? You can give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. You can also text at that number.

We'd also like to hear from Catholics who have family members who are trans or non-binary, how are you feeling about the church's position here? Again, the number is 212-433-9692. You can call or text us there or you can tweet @BrianLehrer. I want to talk a little bit about what the church's argument is against, as you were describing gender theory, gender-affirming care. How does it square this seemingly contradictory stance of talking about dignity, but then not applying it completely to this particular group of Catholics?

Francis DeBernardo: That's a very good question. The document outlines that there's a problem with transgender or non-binary people in that they do not honor the dignity of how they were created. The church looks at gender from what is called a physicalist approach. It looks at someone's gender identity being determined by the external characteristics of their body, meaning their genitals, which are the only identifiable gender marker that a doctor has at birth, it's a boy, it's a girl. What new science has been showing and really new meaning in the last 50 years, so not very new, is that gender biologically includes other markers such as hormonal influences, genetic influences, psychological influences.

Determining gender only by a physicalist approach, what is someone's external body markers is really not sufficient. That's what this Vatican document is saying, is that any kind of other understanding or attempt to change one's body to line up with their gender identity is a violation of human dignity. They would say it's a violation of the way that God has created the human being.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to a caller. Let's talk to Gina in Manhattan. Gina, thanks so much for calling.

Gina: Thank you so much for taking my call. I am the mother of a transgender son. Both my husband and I were raised Catholic in a Catholicism that told us that God is love, that God loves you no matter what. This seems not the argument that was used against the homosexual community at one point. I'm befuddled how transgender or gender theory can be lumped into the same category as war and sermon, when less than 1% of the world population identifies as gender fluid, or non-binary, or transgender.

This to me, just feels like an attack rather than anything that actually has to do with human dignity because if every human matters, then I don't understand how this is part of Jesus's teaching. Thank you so much.

Brigid Bergin: Gina, thanks for that call. You wrote a piece for New Ways Ministry on your blog critiquing this document. Can you talk a little bit about that and respond to Gina's call?

Francis DeBernado: Sure. I think Gina makes an excellent point and that is really the problem of this document, is that it does not apply its teachings on human dignity to one small sector of humanity, the transgender, non-binary, gender-fluid community. If human dignity is as absolute as the document makes itself out to be, then it should be applied to every human being, no exceptions. What's difficult to accept in this document is that all of the other issues that it says are violations of human dignity are social issues. This one is a personal issue. This one has to do with an individual self-understanding. It eventually becomes a social issue if there are political realities involved about the legality of someone's gender identity. Primarily it's a personal issue. It should not have been included in this document.

Brigid Bergin: Let's take another caller. Let's go to Gary in Hoboken, New Jersey. Gary, thanks for calling.

Gary: Oh, thank you. Thank you for hosting this important discussion. Shout-out to Francis DeBernardo who is a hero in our community. I think my point of this is that this document is once again very confusing communication on the church's stance on LGBTQ people. Back in September, the Pope posted a group of poor, which included trans women who he specifically called daughters of God. Notice not children of God, but daughters of God. Then in November, he sent out a directive that it was okay for trans people to be baptized and even underdetermined by pastoral direction could be godparents of children.

Then in December, approves the blessing for same-sex couples. Now, Francis is calling gender theory the world's worst danger, really? Worse than famine, poverty or ignorance. Let's have a conversation with the people of Gaza right now on that. I think this document and versus even the Pope's confusing opinions and direction, teachings on LGBTQ people indicates that the Vatican, the hierarchy, not the religious men and women with boots on the ground who reach out every day to LGBTQ people and groups like New Ways Ministry, but it indicates the hierarchy is having a real problem with this. They can't even name LGBTQ people.

I was a member of our parish's Senate committee. I'm a gay man. Also read individual archdiocese working documents that were sent to the continental group. Every single one of them mentioned LGBTQ people and their problems in the church. However, when it went to our Continental American Congress for a final document that went to the Vatican, completely LGBTQ people, then the word, the name, the term completely edited out.

Brigid Bergin: Gary, I want to jump in just for a second to give Francis a chance to respond because you raised some really important points there, in both the way the church talks about the community and raising a question that I'd love for you to respond to, Francis, which is, how much of this is political? Is this a move to appease more conservative Catholics or is it somehow rooted in their interpretation of scripture?

Francis DeBernardo: Good question. Thanks for Gary's comments. I think he makes a good point in distinguishing between the hierarchy's view on transgender people and Catholic lay people's view on the gender diverse community. Because poll after poll in recent years has shown, at least in America and polls in other countries that Catholic lay people are ready to welcome and affirm the gender-diverse community. That Catholic lay people have come to know and meet people whose gender journey may be different than most, but is a journey of integrity and journey of spirituality. They welcome them, and they respect them, and they affirm them.

I think that the hierarchy has not done its research particularly in that. I think this document, as a case in point, shows no evidence that they have interviewed transgender people to come up with their take on gender identity. A case in point is just their use of the term sex change. Nobody in the transgender community uses that term anymore. No reputable health professional uses that term. If they had interviewed any transgender people for this, they would have been told not to use that term. I do want to stress that the Catholics in the pews, particularly here in the US, are very welcoming. The problem is that the hierarchy has the megaphone, has the microphone.

Brigid Bergin: I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that as some people listening to this conversation who are not Catholic might wonder. As a listener texted us, "As a non-Catholic, what I can't understand is why Catholics who don't buy church doctrine stick around rather than finding solace in another Christian community." What's your response to that? Is there a place for transgender people in the Catholic church, given what the institutional church is saying about them?

Francis DeBernardo: Right. Yes, there is. There is definitely a place in the church for transgender or non-binary people and for the people who support them. That place may be challenging to find because not all parishes are going to be equally as welcoming. For instance, New Ways Ministry maintains the list of close to 300 parishes in the US about who have welcomed LGBTQ people. In Davenport, Iowa, the bishop there established a gender policy that said, "We aren't going to have a gender policy. We're going to have a policy where we take everybody's case one by one. We're going to listen to people to hear what they have to say before we make any judgements."

Yes, there is a place in the Catholic Church. I think you asked how do people stay within the community? I think that in some ways, being Catholic is almost as strong an identity as someone's gender identity or as someone's sexual orientation. Despite what the institution or the institution's leaders may have to say, people are strongly committed to the Catholic Church. Not as an institution of rules and laws, but as an institution that has rituals and experiences that help people to become closer to God and to become closer to other people. They appreci-- [inaudible 00:19:11]

Brigid Bergin: I think we're having a little trouble with Francis' line. We're going to see if we can get him back in a minute. In the meantime, I want to go to David in Westfield, New Jersey. David, thanks for calling WNYC. I'm hoping we can get Francis back on because I think he may be able to speak to the issues that are of concern to you.

David: Hi, thank you for taking the call. I certainly hope he does come back. It's been a pleasure listening to what he's had to say so far. I'm the father of a trans, my oldest is trans. I was raised Catholic. I find it deeply distressing that the church, "has put their status on the same level as a lot of the terrible things that they claim go against human dignity." I feel like this is a great loss. I find this very much in keeping with what they did back in the days of Galileo when his truth didn't match with the known universe and they basically tortured the poor guy into repenting or recanting his position. I'm hopeful that the speaker, if he returns, can give a little more guidance to those of us that are very worried about where this is coming from. It doesn't feel to me like it's coming from Francis, it feels like it's almost the beginning of pushing him out-

Brigid Bergin: David, thank you.

David: -because he has--

Brigid Bergin: I want to let you know that Francis is back. I'm glad to hear you Francis because I saw David on our board here and I think he is the type of listener who could benefit from some of the resources you might have available and perspective you have on how to keep the faith so to speak in the context of what the institutional church is currently doing.

Francis DeBernardo: I caught the last part of his question. I think one thing that's important to say, I was saying before that they didn't interview transgender people. There's also no evidence from this document that they took into account modern science, very much like the Galileo situation where they did not accept new scientific discoveries. That's a shame because they said that this document was five years in the making. They could have done something.

We do have resources on our website. We have a whole page on transgender issues that links to reputable scientific and social scientific sources. We have a page called Journeys, which is scriptural reflections by transgender people and lesbian, gay, bisexual people, and questions for people to do their own reflection. These things I think might be of help to-

Brigid Bergin: To the clan.

Francis DeBernardo: -Catholics who want to learn more.

Brigid Bergin: Francis, I'm so grateful you could join us. We're going to leave it there for today. My guest has been Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry. For any listener who is looking for resources whether it's parishes, whether it's scientific information about transgender care in a context within the Catholic Church, we'll have a link to New Ways Ministry available on the segment page so you can check that out there. Francis, thank you so much for joining me.

Francis DeBernardo: Thank you very much. Thanks to your listeners as well.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.