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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone, and happy Friday. For those of you tuning in for our breakdown of yesterday's revealing January 6th committee hearing, we will do that second today in about a half hour, because even as that is of compelling national interest, our first guest is also important to this show's place in our democracy at this time, more in a local context.

In this case, early voting begins tomorrow in the New York state gubernatorial primary, and we have invited the three democratic candidates to come on one last time for a round of closing arguments. With us now to begin this round, New York City Public Advocate, Jumaane Williams. Public Advocate, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jumaane Williams: Thanks, Brian. It's always a pleasure to be on.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, this is for your access too, as we provide here, not just mine. Ask gubernatorial hopeful, Jumaane Williams, a campaign-related question, especially if you are a registered Democrat who's still deciding who you will vote for, at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. I want to, Public Advocate, give each of you a little bit of free rein for an opening statement in this round, because I think many people really only get their heads around election choices at the last minute, even though people like you and me may be involved all the time and a little bit obsessed. Go ahead and take, let's say, up to two minutes and say why you think you'd be the best Governor out of you, Kathy Hochul, and Tom Suozzi.

Jumaane Williams: Well, thank you for that, Brian. I really do appreciate it. I think last night we were able to show some amazing distinctions between a Williams administration and a Hochul administration.

Brian Lehrer: There was a televised debate last night, is what you're referring to, right?

Jumaane Williams: Yes, absolutely, televised debating on not just these nine months as Governor, but as six years as Lieutenant Governor under Andrew Cuomo. I'm asking New York to go in a new direction because I think new Yorkers feel the issues that are most affecting them, public safety, housing, and the economy, I'm the only one running as actually have experience helping bring a city from where they were spiking in 2012 to the pre-pandemic gun violence levels in New York City in 2018/2019, where we were the safest we'd ever been.

I believe strongly that we have an opportunity that I hope we never have again, because we lost 70,000 New Yorkers, and we don't want to go back to where we were in a leadership that helped get us here. People are feeling. They're feeling facing eviction, facing foreclosure, food insecurity. We have to be able to move in a new direction. Our campaign is we're the only one that's able to do that. I've been working and providing leadership on these issues, particularly housing and public safety, for such a long time. We were able to show that last night and the mark distinctions weren't refuted because they're correct.

The Governor just doesn't have a plan that is large enough to meet the moment that we're in. We're 10 years behind in how to address gun violence. We have a plan that's ready on day one, that's evidence-based, and has worked in New York City. Unfortunately, the pandemic hit and we didn't get what it was that we asked for, which is one of the reasons I'm running for Governor, to have the tools to act immediately when it's time.

As New Yorkers review what's going on, I think what happens sometimes, the power of incumbency, you see many of the folks who endorsed the current Governor also endorsed Andrew Cuomo. That didn't work well for us. I think we have to move in this new direction to have a better New York. I'm not running because I need a job. I'm proud of the work we're doing as Public Advocate, but I'm running so I can tell my baby girl, Amani, when she's old enough to understand, that daddy did everything he could to make the state better for her and for the families who live in it.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You mentioned the policy differences that came up in the debate last night, I noticed, I said this on the air the other day after the Republican debate on TV and we played excerpts from that. I said one of the things I noticed was that the Democrats seem to have some real policy differences among them. The Republicans were pretty much in lockstep on policy and were criticizing each other on other things. Let me drill down with you on some of these policy differences that I saw come out last night and in the previous televised debate. One is about how hard to push people back to in-person work in the Manhattan Business District.

Now, Mayor Adams, for his part, seems to be pushing the hardest among the prominent elected officials in this chain. The Governor acknowledges some things will be permanently different. I've heard you talk about creating a new normal that's better than the pre-pandemic old normal, including to support small businesses in New York's many neighborhoods as more people work from home permanently. Can you talk about how much return to office is or isn't a priority for you and the vision of a new normal that you have in that respect?

Jumaane Williams: It's taken a while, but finally, I think because the Governor is concerned, again, about winning that she's starting to equivocate a bit, but she was where the Mayor was just a couple of months ago. I'm worried that it may change if she got elected. We have been very clear that we can't return to normal because normal didn't work for most people. We want to normalize people's lives, especially government workers' lives, but we have to lead here. One of the things that we've seen in this pandemic is that people can work hybrid, can work remotely and be effective.

Now I agree that we want to make sure our economies all across this state are working. A hybrid model like the one we had in our office before we went remote for this spike and we'll be going back to remote is the one we should be looking at. People can commute back and forth and keep those economies working. They also can have the mind frame of work-life balance that we learned is so important and they also help the economies around where they live. That's the best of both worlds and that's where we should be leading. Many private companies are doing it.

If you had a Williams administration, every city worker, where applicable, will have the opportunity to have a hybrid model because that helps both the people who are working, the workers themselves, and the entire state.

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if you just made news there because the Governor, if you're elected Governor, the Governor isn't in charge of city workers, the mayor is. Mayor Adams has ordered all the city workers back to their offices five days a week, that's controversial among the city workforce. Are you saying that you as Governor would somehow order Adams to change that?

Jumaane Williams: We can't order the city workers do that. I'm trying to lead by example as Public Advocate of what I think the city workers should do. I am concerned that we have some meetings actually in the city that are saying they have to meet remote because of COVID while we're demanding city workers come in five days a week, eight hours a day. That's something that we just don't have to do, but as Governor, we do have a lot of say over state workers. We want to lead by example there as well. We want to work with the localities to do what's best for them and help them see why this hybrid model is actually the best way to go.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Related to that, all the candidates talk to some degree now about converting unused office space and unused hotel space to residential use because of the high cost of housing, of course, and the chronic housing shortage. Are there differences between you that you would point to on that and are we literally talking about Manhattan Business District office buildings converting to apartment buildings?

Jumaane Williams: I don't think there's any difference, thankfully, on that because it's something that we have to do and people see that. Right now, as you may know in Penn Station, this administration is trying to push through a deal that's just really a [unintelligible 00:08:25] deal to actually build more office towers and not just office towers, but luxury office towers. Many, many towers for office use when we actually need housing. One of the biggest failures in this session was actually on housing and we have a very, very limited plan from the Governor to build 100,000 "affordable units" but across the state, that's not enough for just one borough, much less the entire state.

Our plan of building and preserving a million units where no one pays over 30% of their income in rent is where we should go. We have real estate industry donating for bad policy that is keeping New Yorkers facing eviction and facing foreclosure, not supporting good cause eviction, which simply is saying, give a reason if you want to evict a tenant, is a problem. We don't have an administration that has a vision that meets the moment we're in. It's very, very clear that that's the case. I'm running because I'm quite concerned that we're squandering an opportunity to actually bring this state to where it should have been all along.

Brian Lehrer: On opposing the Penn Station project and juxtaposing it with our need for housing, why does it have to be one or the other? People could argue that, yes, we need to build a whole lot of housing too and convert things to housing for all the reasons that we always talk about, but if there is demand to work in the Manhattan Business District in person, then let's go ahead and build a lot of office space too because that increases the economy of New York, which benefits everybody, people might argue. Why juxtapose those two rather than say do both?

Jumaane Williams: I'm always a both/and person, but to be clear, what's being proposed doesn't have any housing law. Luxury Class A housing is the top of the line. I'm sorry, Class A office space is the top of the line office space. I do want to, if people want to come back to Manhattan to work, make sure that's available. We have a lot of office space already available, but what's even more troubling in that Penn Station deal is the fact that it's supposed to be about transportation, yet we have no transportation plan, the fact that the state is overruling the city and not allowing the [unintelligible 00:10:52] process to go forward to see what local people who live there and work there have to say.

It also is going to get rid of a lot of small businesses. There's a lot of issues there that we're skipping over as we're moving forward, which what seems to be simply another giveaway to one of the largest developers who happens to donate a lot of money. There's a way we can look at this, but we don't need to speed by. Of course, the first thing we should be looking at is a transportation plan, which doesn't even exist. It looks like we're doing the cart before the horse.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, my guest is New York City Public Advocate, Jumaane Williams, in his role as candidate in the Democratic primary for Governor. Early voting starts tomorrow in this primary, whether you're voting on the Republican or the Democratic side. We have candidate Tom Suozzi scheduled for next week, still trying to pin down Governor Hochul on a date for her last round appearance. We hope she comes through. If you have a question for Jumaane Williams for today, 212-433-WNYC. We'll get to your calls when we get through a few more questions. 212-433-9692 or tweet a question @BrianLehrer.

I want to follow up on what you just mentioned because that's a significant difference between you and the Governor on housing that has come up in both debates as well as other times on this so-called Good Cause Eviction Bill, that would make it harder to evict tenants and would also tie rent increases to the cost of living and to people's incomes. The Governor would not support that in the debate last night. You did. Good cause eviction, as I understand it, does include failure to pay the rent as a justifiable cause for eviction. What are these things that people get evicted for in any meaningful numbers that such a law would stop?

Jumaane Williams: What's interesting here is that we have 220,000 people facing eviction right now, 90,000 people who are homeless. It doesn't even come close to the folks who are living in conditions that are overcrowded. Good cause eviction is just something that the real estate industry opposes and puts a lot of money to prevent. As a tenant organizer, which I was, when people would come before me and ask for repairs to be made, I would have to ask them, "Do you have rent regulations protections, because if you don't, I can help you get this repaired, but you will get evicted when it's time to renew your lease."

What good cause allows is for tenants to be able to access the other rights that they have, but fear using because they get evicted. We see it all the time all across the state, people holding on to dilapidated housing because they can't afford to live anywhere else and they're scared to ask for repairs. A lease renewal is very important for people to access rights that they have and making sure that someone can't raise the rent from $1,200 to $5,000, which is happening all across this city and this state, is something we need because it's de facto eviction. All we're saying is that if you want to evict someone, you have to be able to provide a reason.

The reason that you mentioned is one of them, not payment of rent, damaging property, violation of lease, or if you simply need it for a family member. Also protecting one-to-four family, owner-occupied buildings is important as well. Many people don't even know if they're owner-occupied or one-to-four families, you're not even included in this at all. You don't want anyone to lose their home by foreclosure, which we didn't have enough protection for or by eviction. So having that good cause eviction is the bare minimum we need to protect people. It is really sad that the Governor has allowed the type of fear mongering around this bill that is simply meant to stop the crisis of evictions that are going on all across the state.

Brian Lehrer: Just one other thing about that bill. Tying rent increases to the rate of inflation, which is how I've heard it described by some of the advocates of the bill in the legislature. Two years ago that might have sounded like a pro-tenant policy. With today's inflation rate, maybe not so much. Is the current inflation spike revealing a risky part of that bill for tenants?

Jumaane Williams: I think there's some negotiation around what it should be tied to. I think there were options for percentage or inflation. I think this is a conversation that if we have a Governor who actually wants to get this passed, we'll have, but we didn't. That's because of the donations. There's a through line from real estate donations to fossil fuel donations that could have us having the worst policies for New Yorkers who are facing these issues. That is a point where we didn't even get to have a conversation because the Governor just refused to even get involved in this discussion.

It's hard to watch. If New Yorkers are listening right now, who are facing foreclosure, who are facing eviction, who see homeless people on the street and are concerned, there's a reason for that. That's why a Williams administration will make one of this the first things that we begin to tackle.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Cheryl in Soho, originally from Buffalo. Cheryl, you're on WNYC with Jumaane Williams.

Cheryl: Thank you. Mr. Williams, this is not just because I want you to stay in New York City doing an excellent job. This is because I'm concerned. I've been following your campaign and it is almost completely New York City oriented. It seems to me you don't know our state. I don't know why you're running if you don't know the state.

Brian Lehrer: What did he do that makes it look to you like he doesn't know the rest of the state?

Cheryl: Okay, I don't think Mr. Williams knows the difference between the various towns. I don't think he understands the difference in the ecology across the state and what is good for what town might be detrimental to another. I don't think he understands what is-- oh, gosh [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Do you have an example? I hear the Buffalo in your voice, Cheryl.

Cheryl: It comes out when I'm rattled.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have one example perhaps?

Cheryl: Okay, yes. When it comes to the hybrid working situation. My local pharmacy is going down because the workers that would normally be around aren't around. My wonderful pharmacy is not going to be around anymore. That's absolutely horrible to me.

Brian Lehrer: Cheryl, I'm going to leave it there so we can get some other folks on, but thank you very much for your call. Public Advocate, I'm not sure that she got to any specifics about why she thinks you don't know the rest of the state, but people may think of you as a very Brooklyn kind of person. What can you say to listeners around the state who may not be as familiar with you or who may see you as Brooklyn or New York City centric?

Jumaane Williams: Well, first I appreciate Cheryl saying that I'm doing a good job here in New York City. Thank you for that. As for the pharmacy example, just to be clear, there's not every job that can be done remote, and jobs right now, there are some jobs that can do certain things that others [unintelligible 00:18:39] some jobs that you have a corner office and some jobs that you're in a small room. We always see differences in jobs and have to account for that with pay and other forms of appreciation, but that doesn't mean the hybrid model, where applicable, can't work. That is actually just not a true statement and I appreciate the opportunity to speak on it.

I'm in Buffalo now, actually, as we speak and have been traveling the state actually since 2018. I was traveling the state when Cuomo was trying to cut Medicaid during the pandemic to try to prevent that from happening. There are localities and ecologies, as mentioned, that are very different all across the state, from rural to suburban to our cities, our major cities. I have to say, as I've traveled all across the state, the major buckets people are experiencing are the same. They are concerned about public safety, they're concerned about housing, and they're concerned about the economy. They're beginning to experience things that sometimes are foreshadowed in New York City.

The Fruit Belt in Buffalo, where Cheryl is from, is facing some of the biggest spikes in gentrification and people are trying to hold on to their homes. When you have rural parts of New York State that have no broadband, which means they can't actually get the telehealth that people have been fighting for. We see that transportation, whether it is mass transit in New York City, the lack of transit, as a transit desert, in East Buffalo, or rural parts of the state that simply want their streets paved over so they can have a way to drive without bumping all over the place. We see that these buckets are very similar. We have a very good grasp of the entire state and quite frankly, it harms me when I hear the Governor saying a place like East Buffalo is a transportation desert, is a food desert, because she's represented that area for almost 20 years.

If we have a budget that didn't address it at all, but provided a billion dollars for a billionaire stadium, if that's what you do with your neighbors, what are you going to do for the rest of the state?

Brian Lehrer: The caller mentioned different ecologies in different parts of the state or different ecology and let me use that as a way to get into climate policy, because when the Republican candidates debated on TV this week, I don't know if you saw it, when they were asked about taming inflation, they all said they would reverse the fracking ban in New York State to help the economy in parts of Western New York where the Shale Belt is and also to provide New Yorkers with more locally produced energy, which should push down the price.

They didn't mention environmental trade offs from that at all. I'm curious if you think we need to balance longer-term climate goals with shorter-term affordable energy needs or economic development in the Southern tier of the state in any way.

Jumaane Williams: That's a trade off that people use and say we have to do to protect people who make a lot of money off fossil fuels. Speaking of another part of state, in Seneca Falls. I visited Seneca Falls and I saw what was happening with the proof of work crypto mining, which is the worst type of mining that occurs and that community doesn't want it there.

There was a power plant that was shut down only to be reopened with this massive energy draw that is harmful to the environment. I believe I'm the only candidate right now who's saying we have to put a moratorium on proof of work crypto mining that's being banned in other countries, especially when there's other mining that we can use for crypto. We are well aware of what's going on across the state and are pulling policies to prevent it.

Unfortunately, even though that moratorium passed both houses, the Governor refused to sign it and what we have seen is that people who support crypto mining are sending and giving money both to the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor candidate. As I said before, there's a through line between big dollars that go into someone's pocket and that unfortunately seem to be buying very bad policy.

Brian Lehrer: Tony in Red Hook, you're on WNYC. Hi, Tony.

Tony: Hi, Brian, hi, Mr. Williams. Would love to hear your perspective on building a city with safe streets, a state with safe streets. Talk to me about cycling infrastructure. Talk to me about enforcement of reckless driving. I saw two small children knocked to the ground by a minivan in Park Slope yesterday. Luckily they ran away unscathed, but we could be telling a different story. It seems like it's out of control, people running red lights. It's tough. We know that good cities are built with pedestrians or safe streets. I want to live in a town where we can bike around, feel safe. It helps business. It helps public health. Tell me about safe streets. Tell me about cycling infrastructure, all that good stuff, please.

Brian Lehrer: Tony, thank you. Specifically, Public Advocate, is that anything that you as Governor would get involved in or is that all city policy?

Jumaane Williams: What the Governor has to do is provide leadership on many of these topics and issues and work with localities to give them the resources that they need to do what's best for their municipality, make sure people can live safe lives. It's just interesting how we view safety, and rightfully so, people are concerned about the rise in gun violence as I am and have been leading on for quite some time.

They are almost just as likely or more to be killed by a car and we have seen probably the worst deaths of civilians and cyclists in a very long time, even as we have this zero plan that just simply didn't work. Many people know I've begun cycling more and more and quite often the human in us look at this differently depending as a pedestrian, as you're driving, if you're cycling. I do all three. What I do know, the most privileged people on the road are people who are behind tons of metal that can kill anyone else who's on there.

That is the infrastructure that we provide most to. The cars have the most infrastructure. That simply has to change and I'm saying that as someone who drives as well and whose family drives, that we have to share the road in a way that is safer, which means we have to spend money to build out infrastructure. It's immoral also to ask people to ride their bike more without building the infrastructure to do that and so we have to have--

Brian Lehrer: Also on the streets of New York and back to climate. A difference that I saw in the first televised debate between you and the other candidates, you said that you would allow congestion pricing for driving into Manhattan to go ahead and take effect right away despite the cost of driving now and the empty offices. Hochul and Suozzi both advocated for a delay. Can you make your case on that, including the trade offs involved if you see any?

Jumaane Williams: It was interesting to hear Hochul say that she doesn't know why everybody thinks that she disagrees with it when she was the one that said it. Even last night's debate, she still didn't change the time frame. It'd be interesting to hear if her time frame has changed. We have to do it right now. One, it is very good for [unintelligible 00:26:21] We are worse than we were pre-pandemic in terms of cars who were in the city at any given time.

We need the funding to help better our mass transit and so it's just something that doesn't need to be delayed at all. It's hard to hear people saying that we're going to delay it and just reminding people it's not even all of Manhattan, it's just the most congested parts of Manhattan. What I believe, it should be done during rush hour time period. There's just no reason for delay.

Brian Lehrer: The others seem to be concerned about this with respect to inflation. Do you have any specific plans to tackle inflation as Governor, or is that only for national policy makers?

Jumaane Williams: What we kept hearing is that a candidate say we have the highest tax rates in America. I always have to keep saying that we have some of the highest costs of living in this state. That's the part that people don't think about. We now have the highest rents in the entire nation, and so what we need to do is make sure that people who are leaving this state, not because of high taxes, they're leaving the state because we simply can't afford to live here.

When we're asking to-- like myself, I'm involved in a lawsuit right now as public advocate to right size property taxes, middle class, working class, struggling, New Yorkers are paying too high of a burden in property taxes. We then do have to lift revenues for millionaires and billionaires. If you make less than a million dollars a year after you've paid everything you need to pay, you don't have to worry about any of the things that I'm proposing. We do have to adjust taxes for middle, working, and struggling class, but we do have to increase revenue from the people who made more money during this pandemic than the people who were facing eviction and foreclosure and are worried about public safety at a high level.

Brian Lehrer: Caller, or I should say question from a listener via Twitter. Listener writes, Hochul says she will protect abortion rights in New York state. What will you do to support legal abortion in New York? I actually want to make that an even more specific question because I saw you say in both debates that the state has failed to pass two bills that you call the Equality Act and an Equity Fund proposed by people you referred to as women of more color. Whose bills to do what and what else would you say to that listener who asked that Twitter question?

Jumaane Williams: Yes, those two bills were really important. The Equality Act would've concretized in the constitution to make sure that we can't discriminate against gender, against sexual identity, against LGBTQ community at all and that would've been one of the strongest protections that we have. The Equity Fund would've provided resources to the people who are going to be hardest hit, that is Black and brown women and pregnant people. We weren't able to do that.

We must make sure, and I always fought for these protections, that a woman has a right to access safe, legal, and affordable abortion care for when they want to make those decisions. I also added last night that one of the things that we sometimes do is use that to pretend that we are protecting all of women and all of women's rights. When I bring up eviction protections, the primary head of household in families that are being evicted are women. When we bring up food insecurity, right now people can't find baby formula, people don't have enough food to put on the table. The head of households who most feel that are women. I just want to make sure we're broadening out what we're saying in terms of protecting people who need the most protection and we haven't done that.

Brian Lehrer: A few minutes left with New York City Public Advocate, Jumaane Williams, as he runs in the Democratic primary for Governor. Early voting starts tomorrow. Some of you have your absentee ballots, which of course you could send in any time. Alan in Brooklyn has a political question. Alan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Alan: Good morning, Jumaane. I've admired you since you were my Councilman a number of years ago [unintelligible 00:30:43] to a number of community meetings. I have a practical question. I don't blame you for the logistics of this, but if you succeed in getting the Democratic nomination, you will obviously be partly because of the split in the constituencies that will be voting for the other two right candidates. You're entitled to take advantage of that, because that's part of the process, but you also have the nomination for the Working Families Party.

I haven't heard any questions raised during debates that would ask you whether you will actively campaign against the Democrats if you do not get the Democratic line, in which case that would split the liberal vote and likely make it easier for a Republican to win Albany. I'm just wondering if you have any position on that eventuality.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Alan.

Jumaane Williams: Thank you for the question. Actually, that has come up early on once I got the endorsement and everybody has agreed that our objective here is not to help a Republican win. I do have to say one of the things I'm hoping to help my party do is stop giving people a boogeyman to vote against and give a vision to actually vote for because when we lean into our vision, and stop being-- we are terrible at talking about public safety, and we're terrible about talking about taxes. When we can't do it, we start to lean into Republican-like talking points.

Republicans are better at their own talking points. From 2016 nationally until now, we haven't seemed to learn the lesson that the status quo way of doing things are harmful to all of us and that the status quo politics are actually of Cuomo/Hochul, not just nine months, but as six years as Lieutenant Governor, haven't got us to where we want to go. What's important for me is providing a vision that is better for New York and all of New Yorkers. What I've learned when people hear our vision all across the state, people gravitate to it.

Brian Lehrer: Is that a yes or no on endorsing Hochul if she wins the primary?

Jumaane Williams: What I can tell you is that we want to focus on winning this election. What I can tell you is both the Working Families Party and I have agreed that we are not going to help get a Republican elected. That's 100% clear, but I can't say that without saying-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I should have said Hochul or Suozzi, whichever one wins the primary, who might not be you, but go ahead and finish that thought, sorry.

Jumaane Williams: I just want to make sure that we're 100% clear that this running by just pushing fear of the other person is making New York State and this country worse. We have to stop. Again, many of the people who have endorsed Hochul endorsed Andrew Cuomo because he was Governor. We shouldn't be electing people simply because of the power of incumbency protection, but we should be endorsing people who have a vision to move the state forward. I happen to have a vision and actually a lot of experience and a lot of wins in helping government move in places and spaces that people said I wouldn't be able to. I travel across this state and municipality dealing with similar issues.

Brian Lehrer: Last question then on electability. Some people might say you would be a riskier candidate in a time when Republicans are rising even in New York State, with some of the results on Long Island and elsewhere last year, that because Suozzi and Hochul are leaning a little more center, especially on public safety, their positions on bail reform are different from yours, for example.

The Siena poll came out last week that found 85% of New York City residents support Mayor Adams adding many police officers to the subway system. I think you don't support that. For Democrats who might think, "Well, I like Jumaane Williams, but he might not be the most electable and I don't want to get a Republican in there," what would you say to them? Last question.

Jumaane Williams: What's interesting, what New Yorkers say is they want to be safe, and so we look at the wrong polls around policing, but I think that poll, one right before it actually said that 70% of New Yorkers felt they had an adequate amount of police in their neighborhoods. They also had a poll where people said the things that they want most about public safety to be fixed is housing, mental health, and responsible policing was third. We have always said that law enforcement is important, so even in the subways, it's important to have that type of service there.

What's missing is all of the other services. Lastly, I will say, again, what we have found is that when people hear the message of public safety and keeping themselves safe and feeling safe, it actually works. In 2016, we had the same argument and we lost. We nearly lost just a few years ago, because we keep putting incumbents who are status quo, professional elected officials. Incumbency protection seems to be the biggest thing in Democratic circles, where the Republicans are putting people who have a vision, even though I disagree with it thoroughly, that says we want a different type of message.

The party has to put up people who can speak to those folks who don't want the politics as usual and the status quo politicians, but that's all Democrats keep offering. If we had made different decisions nationally, I believe we would have been in a different situation than we are right now, but we have to stop trying to hold on to a normal that brought us to the point that we're here today.

Brian Lehrer: Public Advocate Jumaane Williams running in the primary for Governor of New York, thank you very much for coming on. Again, we always appreciate it.

Jumaane Williams: Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: We've got Tom Suozzi scheduled for next week for one last round. Still working on Governor Hochul to get a commitment to come on next week. We think it'll work out but we don't have that scheduled yet as we continue to cover the primary for Governor of New York. Early voting, New Yorkers, if you're a registered Democrat or a registered Republican, begins tomorrow.

 

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