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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now that call pegged to a recent Wall Street Journal investigation that found that Facebook is conducting private internal research that The Wall Street Journal got a hold of on how Instagram -Facebook owns Instagram- negatively affects teen mental health. Again, according to them, more than 40% of Instagram users who reported feeling unattractive said the feeling began on the app. Laurie in Raleigh, you're on WNYC. Hi Laurie.

Laurie: Hi Brian. Can you hear me okay?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you just fine all the way from North Carolina.

Laurie: Yes. Born and raised from Queens. I've moved four or five years ago. I was actually calling in for your other segment, but it's funny how the two are related in a lot of ways. I think the previous segment connects to this one, which connects to why I got rid of Facebook for myself personally and have made it like this thing in my home with my teenage daughter, who's going to be 14, as well as my sons to stay off of Facebook. It stands for me from a political place in regards to all of the propaganda, the fake news, and all the things that flushes through Facebook and specifically targets African Americans, because I am an African American woman.

For me, and doing my dissertation, which is on the effects of various different social and economic things that affect African American women as they're trying to gain mobility, it made me look at a lot of different avenues, and so this was one. One of the things that I try to engage my daughter about is the reality of social media, what to take seriously, what not to, all those sorts of things, and uplifting what her body image is and how beautiful she is. Without being cringy, as my daughter likes to say, that's good word, cringy, overbearing mom and doing things that's a little whatever they think, it's corny, but for them, they say cringy. I try to explain to her about what she sees and the reality of some of the women that are on there, whether they're selling product.

Brian Lehrer: There's that general media and political literacy that you're trying to do with [crosstalk]

Laurie: Like, "Drink this tea and your body will be perfect".

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that her self-image has been negatively affected by her Instagram use?

Laurie: No. She actually has no Instagram use. She only uses Snapchat, actually. I've been able to keep her off of Instagram, her brother not because he's a visual artist and he puts his work out on there so I allow him, but she hasn't used Instagram. So far so good she only uses Snapchat to talk to her girlfriends. When I talk to her about the realities of things and that-- she's a slim girl, she has a body that's somewhat almost like dancer-like, but I try to talk to her about the realities of what healthy is in terms of food, and what we just talked about, wellness, all those sorts of things, and not so much about the body image part. She seems to ironically get it. A lot of times I'll come to her with certain things and she's looking at me like, "Mommy, please, why are you being so deep? I already know." She's actually a lot smarter and aware than I would [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: A lot of times that's the case, maybe it's even the case with this. The Wall Street Journal does a big investigative report and finds these Facebook, Instagram documents, and maybe the kids already know, except the results from Instagram's internal study did show a troubling connection between those teens who have suicidal thoughts or otherwise have poor self-images that they originated or were amplified on the platform. Laurie, thank you very much. Please call us again. Let's go to Catherine in Park Slope. Catherine, this is also about your daughter, right?

Catherine: Yes. Troubling is I guess putting it mildly. Basically, all the girls, they post themselves in the bikinis, this is what they do, and they say, "Oh, beautiful. You're so pretty. You're so cute." It's a non-stop crush all summer long of these beauty shots, these glamor shots, and they look amazing, and then there's comments, hundreds of comments. This is not creepy, this is just what they do every day. This has been going on. My daughter, I warned about Instagram and warned about social media a couple years ago, and definitely, inside of her, she has something that probably she feels insecure and has for a while.

I said, "Once you get on, it's just going to exaggerate everything you're feeling." It's come down to it where during the pandemic suddenly she's an athlete, suddenly during the school year just noticed she started losing a lot of weight and over obsessive about her body, over obsessive about not eating, over obsessive about restricting food, got her into a [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: We didn't even make that connection in the talk-up. Those kinds of body image issues that we were describing can lead to eating disorders.

Catherine: Right. It's all there in the teen brain, it's all happening where they're comparing themselves to their friends, they're looking at their bodies, their feelings, and they have all these feelings that they can't express them. All just looking nonstop at their friends, having fun in their bikinis. Finally, when I got her back, when she finished the program in the summer, I said, Ç"You need to really think about Instagram", and what ended up happening, she said, "I can't, I can't stop because that's how all my friends communicate. That's how we communicate." Not only in pictures, but it just within the text messaging in there. That's their communication tool.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, the last caller talked about prohibiting her 14-year-old daughter from using Instagram. I'm sure that's easier said than done in most households. Have you thought about going that far?

Catherine: I have. Then there's a question of metal health of limiting your child to how everyone communicates. It's a delicate balance of I'd like you to say no, but then what happens? She's ostracized, she's out of the group. There's a balance of helping her understand the awareness of what's happening and what it's doing to your brain and how it's your brain is being tricked as you're on it and telling you you're not good enough. This is a high-achieving child. This is someone who's been in the background all around. This is someone who you can just see the progress of becoming a teen, the brain not fully developed, looking at these images nonstop. The equipment would be when we were growing up and--

Brian Lehrer: Maybe the best thing you can do is what you're doing, which is not cutting her off from her social circles, but having an ongoing dialogue. You can call it media literacy in the context of protecting her from a negative self-image.

Catherine: Right. It feels like it's such an underlying theme in every kid's life that it should be woven into education, it should be woven into anything where a team-- like in school, they should have discussions about what it's doing, because it's prevalent, it's everywhere.

Brian Lehrer: In your case, does your daughter seem to hear you and learn from the dialogues you're having? Sometimes it can be subtle and the teen won't even acknowledge that. Or does she turn to you and say that you're being cringy, to quote the last call?

Catherine: Yes. She's a teen, so she doesn't want to listen to what her parents have to say. I think you can only hope that what you're saying, some of it is sticking in, that they're taking some of it and that can process it a little bit, but I think expectations for our teenagers, they don't want to listen to their parents. They're individualizing, they're becoming individuals.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine, thank you so much for your call and good luck with everything. Vivian in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hello, Vivian.

Vivian: Hi. Sorry, just warning, I'm a little nervous because I haven't really talked about this a lot. I used to be a model for almost 10 years. I started modeling around 14, which is when Instagram just started. My agencies and everything forced me to have Instagram, have a presence. It definitely negatively affected not only my body image, but also comparing myself to other girls my age, what they were doing, what jobs they were getting, what I wasn't getting, and just being extremely critiqued also by these older people who I thought of authority figures, just criticizing also everything I posted, every caption. Also being questioned why I didn't post this, why I didn't do this? Why are you posting this? Your body doesn't look good in that. That's like an extreme version. Today it has affected me still. I stopped modeling maybe four years ago because I was in an unhealthy place mentally and physically. Today I will get stuff on my Instagram of models that just pop up on your feed, or designers. Especially when it's a younger model who just pops up, I feel all these feelings that I had when I was in that age and doing the same thing.

Just almost discussed it about how amplified it is for them and knowing what they're doing to themselves to their bodies, and also knowing the back-end of it and how forced it is on a lot of these young women and young men in the fashion industry and the entertainment industry. Just not knowing really the effects of it that have it on the long run. I've come to having to block people, almost, who talk about their weight, how they stay fit as a model, all these things. It just makes me almost disgusted for young teens who don't know and are seeing this content.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any advice for these moms who've been calling in who have teenagers at home?

Vivian: I would just say to really help your child feel their self-worth. That's something that I didn't have from modeling agencies, but also my parents didn't really understand either. Today I really struggle with self-worth and feeling that I'm good enough. I have a floral business now and even just post seeing a floral design, that really to everybody looks great, but me nit-picking and just being like, "Wow, this is just really awful." Which sounds bad, but it really affects your self-worth. I think really just hammering in that your children are beautiful, they're great, and that they don't need the validation from all these strangers and other people.

Brian Lehrer: So well said, your call has been worth a lot to a lot of people, I think. Thank you very, very much.

Vivian: Thank you. Bye

Brian Lehrer: Let's take Tess in Jersey city. Tess you're on WNYC. Hi.

Tess: Hi. It's interesting just hearing your last caller. I was thinking about how in my own life with my mom, this also relates to the other point we were talking about before. She always tells me, "Watch you're eating", but in a way that's in a health-conscious perspective, but I think of the ways in which she was impacted by media as well, and her body image has been-- I don't know, the way she's been influenced by all the things that she's seen and how that has been projected onto me. Then now I have her concerns about weight and body image, but I also see that in social media.

I'm 23 and I grew up like your previous caller with Instagram, and that was really difficult and I never really understood why that was so difficult. During the last March, I deleted Instagram for a year basically up until this last March and that was incredible.

Brian Lehrer: Why you come back?

Tess: That I was thinking you were going to ask me that and I was wondering myself, and I don't have a good answer except for that it's the lifeline for my generation in terms of communication.

Brian Lehrer: You also told our screener that you wanted to make a contrast between Instagram and TikTok, right?

Tess: Yes. I think that what's been really interesting and also helpful to me is that while Instagram has been a really negative thing for body image for myself and my peers, I think TikTok is celebrating body image in a lot of ways that there's no room to do that on Instagram. While there's issues on TikTok as well, I think TikTok's algorithm is really interesting and has allowed me to see people that look like me, with a huge following, with a lot of likes. That's been really, really amazing to witness.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, Tess, you're onto something even bigger than you may realize because The Wall Street Journal investigation shows that Instagram knows it's an outlier among other apps, quote from the article, "Noting that TikTok, a short video app, is grounded in performance while users on Snapchat, a rival photo and video sharing app, are sheltered by jokey filters that keep focus on the face, and in contrast, Instagram focuses heavily on the body and lifestyle." You've definitely nailed that aspect for yourself, Tess. We also have the Wall Street journal pulling it out. I'm going to give Matilda in Williamsburg the last word here, Matilda with apologies, we only have 30 seconds left of in the segment, but they are yours.

Matilda: Thanks, Brian. I just wanted to chime in, I'm a professional dancer in New York, and 22. I very much relate to the last couple of callers and I try to stay off Instagram between 9:00 PM and 9:00 AM. I'm not too successful with it, but it does help to like wind down after a whole day of scrutinizing myself and comparing and all of that [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Not do it close to bed. Not do it close to bedtime. Thank you very much. Thanks to all of you who called on this segment. Boy, we could have gone on with this. I will note that Facebook has signaled, it might change in the future. Developers have said they might try identifying people who are in trouble and try to nudge them toward more positive content with algorithms and other things. At least some response from Facebook to The Wall Street Journal onvestigation and its own internal report. Thanks for your calls.

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