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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. I'm looking over a list of the most recent reports from the group Human Rights Watch. You know Human Rights Watch, the human rights group. Obviously, it's an international group. These reports from the last month include things like obstruction of aid in Yemen during COVID-19, people with disabilities dying in Western Australia's prisons, and violence during Guinea's constitutional referendum and elections. Now, these may sound remote to most Americans, and like the kinds of things you'd expect the international human rights groups to be blowing the whistle on.

Then there's this one, "kettling" protesters in the Bronx, systemic police brutality and its costs in the United States. Why is Human Rights Watch reporting on our community? On June 4th, in the midst of the protests following the death of George Floyd, roughly 300 protesters in the Bronx neighborhood of Mott Haven were surrounded just before curfew by dozens of police officers at the intersection of East 136th Street and Brown Place. It was 10 minutes before the eight o'clock curfew that was in effect at the time.

Police closed in on the crowd, arresting on mass over 260 of the demonstrators in a process now described as "kettling." Last week Human Rights Watch published this report, which detailed "Violations of international human rights law during the 'kettling' and mass arrest."

The report is exhaustive, built on the eyewitness accounts of 81 protesters, interviews with 19 officials, experts, and community leaders as well, and those 19, and analysis of 155 video clips from the crackdown. Now, police commissioner, Dermot Shea justified the controversial action to Gothamist reporter Jake Offenhartz, with claims that ended up being false. Here's about a minute and a half long clip from last week's "Ask the Mayor" segment on this program of that claim. Then in exchange, I had with Mayor de Blasio regarding the commissioner's words, which you'll hear first.

Dermot Shea: We intercepted them literally, literally, Jake, as they were bringing a gun and gasoline and weapons to the scene of that. That's actually what happened.

Brian: Even the New York Post coverage of this says that isn't actually what happened. The gun arrest happened a half a mile away, nearly three hours before the protest was broken up, and no gasoline was ever recovered, officials later clarified. That way the [unintelligible 00:02:58] asked the question, that's why Human Rights Watch is asking you to consider firing police commissioner Shea for that misinformation as they characterize it.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: No, Brian, look, this is not how things should work. I respect Human Rights Watch. They've provided one perspective. There's a full investigation being done now by the Department of Investigation, that's what I'm going to look at. Human Rights Watch has their perspective and their resources, and that should be another piece of information that we bring to bear.

Brian: Why would you trust something, NYPD review over Human Rights Watch, which has a lot of documentation?

Mayor: Again, I said Department of Investigation, which is an independent entity responsible for investigating all city agencies. Respectfully, I don't blame you for listening to people who you feel are telling you something important, that's fair. You're listening to Human Rights Watch. You're listening to people who were protesting. That's a part of the picture, we need to know that, but we need a complete investigation where everyone who involved that is pertinent is interviewed.

Brian: Mayor Bill de Blasio on our show last Friday. Joining me now to discuss what happened the night of the Mott Haven "kettling" and the subsequent Human Rights Watch report are Jake Offenhartz, Gothamist reporter who covers the NYPD, who was doing that interview with the commissioner, and Ida Sawyer, Acting Director of Human Rights Watch's crisis and conflict division. Her usual job is Deputy Africa Director now also looking at the Bronx. Hi, Jake and Ida. Welcome to WNYC.

Ida Sawyer: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Jake Offenhartz: Hey, Brian.

Brian: Ida, for people who don't know the word, could you define "kettling" for us and what the problem with "kettling" would be?

Ida: Sure. "Kettling" is a tactic that was used in this case by the NYPD, where protesters are completely surrounded by police officers and they have no means, no opportunities to disperse. In this case, it was used towards the entire group of around 300 protesters. Under international human rights law, it should not be conducted in this way. If there is violence being conducted, a group of protesters involved in that violence could be cordoned off by the police officers, but there's no justification for "kettling" and trapping an entire group of several hundred peaceful protesters, which is what happened in this case.

Brian: Jake, can you follow that with a little bit of your account of the event and how it fits under the definition of "kettling."

Jake: Yes, I think that's a good definition. I would also add that I have been kettled in the past before this. This was "kettling plus." This was the most aggressive action I've personally seen the NYPD take. It wasn't just the protesters were surrounded just before 8:00 PM, but there was a line of cops from the back that actually charged at them with batons and those lines of cops in the front with bikes push it forward. It was very claustrophobic sea. I saw people having a panic attack. I saw people are screaming. There was a pregnant woman there who was trying to get out. It was beyond the semi-standard "kettling" that we saw on other night's protests.

Brian: The clip that we played of Dermot Shea, the NYPD Commissioner speaking to you, in which he made claims that turned out to be false about a gun and gasoline at the scene, and that's why they felt that they had to do it, to prevent those things from being used against the police. To give him every benefit of the doubt that's appropriate, is it your best understanding now, three months later, that it was his best information at the time, in a hot crisis at the time, and he did what he thought was necessary to protect the safety of his officers and others, or was he just making that up about the gasoline and the gun?

Jake: I think it's a good question. I think there's a very generous interpretation here that he was worried that there was going to be possible violence, but the NYPD is a frequent source of misinformation about protesters. Dermot Shea had previously misled the public about there being bricks planted in a part of Brooklyn. He recently lied about bail reform, or misled the public about that. I think that he sees his role as NYPD Commissioner is defending the NYPD's actions. Over and over again, we've seen Mayor de Blasio defer to Dermot Shea's interpretation of these events.

Brian: Ida, do you have anything on that particular piece of misleading information or false information from the time, because it was widely dispersed at the time as a rationale for the "kettling?"

Ida: We know in all of our research, the 81 accounts from protesters, people present at the protest, and the review of 155 videos taken during this protest from start to finish, we found no evidence of any threats or use of violence by the protesters, or by the organizers, or any indications of vandalism at all. To the contrary, it was entirely peaceful until the police responded with violence at the end when they broke it up with the "kettling" and assault on the protesters.

What many of the people we interviewed felt and what their sense was, they felt that this particular protest was being targeted because in part where it was, in Mott Haven in the South Bronx, primarily Black and brown neighborhood, and the fact that it was being led by groups who are known to the NYPD. Take back the Bronx extra NYPD accountability, decolonize this place. They are known for being outspoken advocates against police brutality, calling for accountability, and many felt that the police planned this operation to send a strong message to these protesters, these organizers in this neighborhood.

Brian: I see our lines are starting to light up. Listeners, we can take some phone calls. If you were a protest around the scene, if you are a police officer on the scene, was this a human rights violation? A violation of international human rights law as Human Rights Watch? Now label set with our guest from Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer and Gothamist [unintelligible 00:10:01] reporter Jake Offenhartz, 646-435-7280. We'll get to a few phone calls, 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Just to follow up on what you were just saying, Ida and Jake, I'll put this to you. The organizers of the protest were a group called FTP formation. FTP, for our listeners, not familiar commonly stands for Expletive The Police, FTP.

Clips from the protest, certainly show some emotionally charged and confrontational language against the police. One of the organizers, Shannon Jones, said in her interview with you, Jake, that, "Hugging cops was essentially a waste of time. Flyers were posted depicting burning police cars." Is there anything about FTP formation or the rhetoric of this particular match that, when compared to other marches at the time, could have colored the NYPD's expectation of violence, or is this the police showing a thin skin to what was never more than an expression no matter how harsh of free speech?

Jake: I'll jump in. I think part of this context is that FTP is this coalition of groups and they really came about last year in response to the proposal to add a lot of police officers to the subway system. In the pre-pandemic times, there were, I think, three protests against adding, I think, cops to the transit system. The first one, it seems like police were really caught off guard by it. There were hundreds of people on the streets. There was this certain mass fair jumping action. There was definitely some graffiti, and the next two had this enormous police response.

I suspect that they had singled out this umbrella group FTP as something that they wanted to zero in on and to make sure that nothing got out of hand. Like Ida points out though, there was just no evidence of that at this event, it was led by two women of color who have lived in the South Bronx for a long time. They were passing out food to homeless Bronxites a few minutes before this. I don't think that there was any strong reasons to believe that this was going to be a protest that inflicted damage on the community that they live in.

Brian: Here's a caller, Gem in the Bronx who says she's part of FTP. Gem, thank you so much for calling in, you're on WNYC.

Gem Isaac: Hi, how are you?

Brian: Good. How are you?

Gem: Good. My name is Gem Isaac and I'm part of Bronxites for NYPD Accountability, fortunately known as Why Accountability across all social media platforms. I think that what's being lost here, possibly purposefully, is the origins of why the FTP formation began. The formation began as a direct response to these hacks on Black and brown youth in the New York City subway transit system by the NYPD.

You had an incident that occurred in Brooklyn where Adrian Napier, a young Black youth, was attacked, and guns were pulled out on him by the NYPD for allegedly fare evasion. Then you also had an attack on students in Brooklyn at a train station where the NYPD basically knuckled up and got into fist fight with children and beat up children. Upon seeing this, we, as Bronxites, understand and we recognize that as something that's been happening to us since we were illegally trafficked here from Africa.

It's the continuation of the attack against Black and brown people, but now the focus is taking place in the New York City transit system. As a response to that, the FTP formation began. We came out to support Adrian Napier and the children in Brooklyn and the countless others who have been attacked by the NYPD's enforcement a fare evasion. That is why it began.

This is something that, I think that once we came out and asked for other people to join us, other Black and Brown marginalized New Yorkers understood it, they recognized it and they affirmed it by their participation. As you know, Bronxites for NYPD Accountability is one of several groups that started the Swipe it Forward campaign. What is that? A direct response to the over-policing of Black and brown communities throughout New York City? The Human Rights Watch--

Brian: Swipe it Forward led people enter the subway, right? Go ahead.

Gem: Say it again.

Brian: Swipe it Forward meaning led people into the subway.

Gem: Swipe it Forward is a direct action against the system to say, "Hey, it is not illegal to look out for your fellow New Yorker. Poverty should not be criminalized, and if you have the means to swipe someone into the subway system, it prevents NYPD and anyone else from attacking that person or "fare evasion."

Brian: Why would you say to anyone who asks, "Why do you have to use the F initial as part of the group?"

Gem: Once again, why is Black and brown speech? Why is the speech of us as Black people always being policed? Why does the language upset you more than the actions against the press?

Brian: Gem, thank you so much for all of that background. Let's take another call. Dean in Ridgewood, your own WNYC. Dean says he was at this particular protest. Hello?

Dean: Hi, Brian. Hi, Jake. Hi, the other guests. Yes, I was there as a peaceful protester, and just hearing the mayor speak is so absurd and disrespectful to the leader of a city to dismiss the findings of Human Rights Watch, an international aid organization, and go with the internal investigation of his dismal administration, is just so oblique and what a complete failure of leadership. I can't imagine anything worse than that.

Brian: Dean, thank you very much. I'm going to play another clip of the mayor then from that segment last Friday, because here we are three months later and no updates on the Department of Investigation inquiry, which he says he's waiting for in order to determine, from his point of view, whether human rights violation was committed and whether the police commissioner should be disciplined for it. While they are no longer using the gun and gasoline to justify the raid, because that's been demonstrated to have been false, they still insist that there was enough to act on. Here's a little more of the mayor from last Friday, making that very point.

Mayor: On the question of the threat of violence. We had seen violence in the days before and there were specific threats directed at that site earlier in the afternoon. I know that for a fact because it was reported to me earlier that afternoon.

Brian: Different than one's referred to there.

Mayor: Again, please.

Brian: Different than the ones that the commissioner referred to there inaccurately.

Mayor: Yes. The point though is, I don't want anyone to go by one person's story or another person's story. I want a complete investigation, and then the people, if things were done right, they were done right. If they were done wrong, anyone who did something wrong should be held accountable in the appropriate way, but we're not doing it based on anything short of a complete investigation.

Brian: Jake Offenhartz from Gothamist, was that new to you that the mayor was saying that there was other information besides the discredited information about specific threats directed at that site that caused the police to kettle the protesters?

Jake: I guess it was new. I don't know. We've asked them over and over again.

Brian: Was there any other specific, now that the gasoline and the gun have been discredited, was there any other specific that the mayor has come up with at another time?

Jake: The 40th precinct of the NYPD posted on Facebook that they had a credible threat that people had planted bricks somewhere along with this protest route. Again, no evidence of that. These organizers are not known for planting bricks or throwing bricks into the storefronts in their own community. If the NYPD or the mayor have proof of that, they have not provided it. I also want to just point out that, when you spoke with the mayor last week, he really stressed that he was waiting for this independent investigation from his Department of Investigation to come out before he was going to lay in, I guess. We have spoken to several attorneys representing over 100 people at this protest all of whom are filing notices for claim with the city that are intend to sue. They say that the Department of Investigation has not reached out to a single one of their clients. We've asked the DOI if they've spoken to anyone in Mott Haven, they haven't responded.

At this point that the investigation for mayor is saying is more credible or more complete picture than this exhaustive Human Rights Watch report doesn't appear to have actually spoken to anyone who was trapped inside the Mott Haven kettle. I don't really think that explanation holds up either.

Brian: As we run out of time, Ida Sawyer from Human Rights Watch. Typically, Human Rights Watch is known, as I said at the beginning, for reporting on things in countries that one might think of is very unlike the United States. How unusual is it for you to put out reports that do call international human rights law violations, things that happen here?

Ida: This is not the first time that we've put out a report on the United States, and we have documented other cases, other examples of international human rights law violations here. I think, in my experience, as you mentioned earlier, most of my work has been in Africa. I've spent a lot of time documenting brutal security force crackdowns on peaceful protesters with security forces, firing on crowds of protesters, rounding people up for arrest.

What was really jarring for me to do this work here in New York in the Bronx was seeing how similar it was, in many ways, especially the sense of total impunity, and that the NYPD appears to act as if it's above the law and accountable to no one. You see this type of behavior being modeled and led by the top commanders of the police force here, and then defended by the commissioner, and now the mayor.

That's pretty shocking and disappointing, and we really hope that the mayor will act to discipline, to hold the commissioner Shea and chief of department Terence Monahan to account including two possible dismissals, and to send a strong message that there are consequences for this type of action.

Brian: Ida Sawyer, Acting Director of Human Rights Watch's Crisis and Conflict division. Her usual job is deputy Africa director, and Jake Offenhartz, reporter for Gothamist. Thank you both so much.

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