[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. During Thursday night's mayoral debate broadcast on WNYC and NY1, I asked all the candidates, "Which one regulation they would modify to help small businesses recover from the pandemic?" Businesses are always saying they're overregulated, especially small businesses. One of the answers broke out as a little news story. Former Sanitation Commissioner, Katheryn Garcia, endorsed by the New York Times, said she would like to see the City's health inspectors schedule their annual inspections of restaurants, instead of showing up on announced like they normally do. Take a listen.

Katheryn Garcia: We do need to make sure we are inspecting restaurants, but they can schedule the appointment so they're staffed to be able to manage it, moving forward, rather than losing a whole night's worth of receipts.

Brian Lehrer: They wouldn't hide stuff and clean up for the inspector with the appointments?

Katheryn Garcia: They would not be hiding stuff from the appointments. You're talking about how many people have ever gotten sick in a restaurant in New York City? It really doesn't happen.

Brian Lehrer: "It really doesn't happen," she said. According to The New York Post, however, which did a story on that little exchange called 'Mayoral Candidate Katheryn Garcia Makes Puzzling New York City Food Poisoning Claim'. The Health Department "received 1,768 foodborne illness complaints in 2020, down from 2,774 in 2019."

The numbers are down of course because the pandemic has mostly kept people from dining out, but we're still talking in the thousands of at least alleged restaurant illness complaints when the commissioner said it really doesn't happen. By the way, it may happen, but Garcia could be right anyway about changing the inspections from surprise to scheduled, but we'll get into that. What are those letter grades in restaurant windows, anyway? Let's take a closer look.

With me now, Charles Platkin, Ph.D., lawyer, MPH, Master of Public Health, and a lawyer. I don't think I've seen that one before, Director of the Hunter College New York City Food Policy Center, and health columnist at Diet Detective. Charles, thanks for coming on.

Charles Platkin: Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Does it happen? Do people get sick from eating in New York City restaurants?

Charles Platkin: Yes. Look, Katheryn Garcia knows, she was the Food Czar during the pandemic. She's very close to some of these things, but I think that she might have had some of the numbers skewed. By the way, it's not so easy to find out exactly what's going on. Yes, you're right, about approximately 3,000 complaints a year. That's the 311, but that number is more about 6,000 residents are hospitalized each year for foodborne illness in New York City. Then, it gets even more detailed if you do an EpiQuery, which is the New York City health department's data website, and you look at some of the foodborne and waterborne infections, they're way above 10,000 plus.

Again, I think that the thought here is that, yes, maybe it's 6,000 to 10,000 that are getting sick, maybe it's more. Also, it's important to note that a lot of this is under-reported. Someone gets sick, and they don't call and complaint, they don't go to the hospital. So, the numbers are severely deflated. One of the things that's also critical to note is that, if one person dies from foodborne illness, that's one person too many. I think that there's a reason for these inspections. They're important. I think there's some things we can talk about, about what can be done to improve this relationship that's going on between the health department and the restaurants, and what Katheryn Garcia was meaning when she made that comment.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, she didn't say don't inspect the restaurant, she just said, tell them when you're going to come, but according to an article from 2019, on your website, nycfoodpolicy.org, unannounced restaurant inspections have been around only since 2010 in New York City. So, what was the origin of them?

Charles Platkin: What was happening was that restaurants weren't really complying. Talking to a former Assistant Commissioner, when they were looking at this whole landscape, they said, "If we were to look back, they would have been all getting B's," and that's not good. We're having a lot of difficulty with compliance. So, they looked around the country, they found that LA was doing letter grades and it was being done successfully.

In 2010, they instituted this policy of this ABC letter grading system. The numbers are really impressive. Salmonella rates have fallen 32% since 2010, the lowest since the letter grade began. There's greater compliance with food safety standards. There's been a 41% drop in sanitary violations from the peak fiscal year in 2012. The percentage of restaurants cited for holding cold food at the wrong temperatures drop 38%. There was a 44% drop in the number of restaurants cited for evidence of lice. You can see these numbers are improving over time, which I think is exactly what they were trying to get done.

Brian Lehrer: What does a letter grade mean? What does it mean when you see an A in the window? What does it mean when you see a C in the window? Why do these letter grades seem to not change? I feel like some of the restaurants in my neighborhood that got a B, and I think "Oh, okay, so they got a B, they sprung an inspection on them, and they got a B." Even a B dissuades a lot of people from walking in, I think.

Charles Platkin: I don't think so.

Brian Lehrer: So, they're going to clean up whatever it is, and then they're going to get their revised grades. But, in some of these places, that never happens. So, what are the letter grades? Is it just me, or are they really more persistent than people would think?

Charles Platkin: Just to clarify one thing. The letter grade A, more than 90% of restaurants in New York City have a letter grade of A. That's the good news. When you see those B's and C's, it can raise doubt, but I think it's important to note that it's really cross-sectional, meaning it's a moment in time, it's really two moments in time that are occurring. A letter grade A, when an inspector walks into a restaurant, they issue points for failure, for sanitary violations. 0 to 13 points, remember, the more points you get, the worse it is. 0 to 13 is an A-grade, 14 to 27 points is a B-grade, and 28 and more sanitary violations is a C-grade. So, they have that first inspection, and if they get below an A-grade, they get re-inspected within, let's say, 10 to 30 days.

It's also very important to note that the health department did something that was, I think, in favor of the restaurants. If a restaurant gets an A-grade but gets a violation, they dismiss that violation's fine, which I think is a credit to what they're trying to do moving in a better direction than what's occurring right now.

Brian Lehrer: What about the persistence?

Charles Platkin: I think that once they get the second inspection, which is also a surprise inspection, but they know what's coming, so they get the inspection--

Brian Lehrer: They know it's coming within a few months after they got a lower grade on the first inspection, right?

Charles Platkin: That's correct. Exactly. Now, they're looking and watching and they all have signals. Look, it's upsetting to read about all this stuff, where they have signals, like with the hostess and letting them know if they think someone has a backpack that's coming into the restaurant, they make a signal and they throw away food in the garbage because they don't want the temperatures to be checked. There's a whole-- something going on here that's very upsetting.

Back to your question. They go to the second inspection, and if the grade is below an A, now that letter, that grade stands, except they can go to a health tribunal, which is run by OATH, and they can appeal. OATH stands for the Office of Administrative Trial and Hearings. So, they have a hearing, this is because their second letter grade was below an A, and when they have that hearing, there's an administrative law judge and they make a decision on whether or not the restaurant violations stand.

The restaurateur can make an argument, and again, this takes probably all day for the restaurateur and the fines. Even though they may find there's lower, that they still get an A, they don't erase the fines that they had received like they would if they got it on the first try. What happens is, if the trial finds that their new score is still a B or still a C, that's what stands, but if their new score, if they win the tribunal, it adds up to an A, that becomes their letter grade. Then, if they get that, a B or a C, like you're saying in your community, that's what stands until they get their next inspection, but the good news or bad news is that inspections are done by letter grade. If you get an A grade, you're getting a 10- to 12-months window before your next inspection. A B grade is around six months, and a C grade, you're going to be re-inspected within three to five months probably.

Brian Lehrer: There's this is diner in Washington Heights that I like to go to. The chicken rice soup [savoring sound]. They've had a B for three years. All right. Listeners, we want to hear from the people who work or have worked in restaurants or bars or owned them, chefs, line cooks, bartenders, hosts, managers, owners. What have your interactions with health inspectors been like prior to the pandemic? Did they come in one night during a packed-dinner service and shut everything down for hours?

What sorts of protocols does your restaurant or bar have when the inspectors arrive at the door? Are you doing that thing with the trash cans that our guest just described? It reminds me of the way the Houston Astros cheated in the 2019 World Series. What sort of things have they called your restaurant or bar out for? What do you think about having scheduled health inspections? Would that make the restaurant or bar just as safe as a surprise visit. That was Katheryn Garcia's issue, that's really the only thing she raised there. Or, would everyone just be on their A-game for one day? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280.

I got an email from a restaurateur this morning, knowing we were going to do this segment, who writes, "Surprise inspections are insanely disruptive for restaurants. Our interests are aligned with keeping our places clean, and making sure no one gets sick, or else we would lose customers quickly. The city doesn't give surprise inspections to hospitals or dentist offices, I don't believe, and they also have public health in their hands." What do you think about that comparison?

Charles Platkin: I think that hospitals should be inspected. Listen, I think that this is a big issue and I'm not so sure the critical point here is the surprise inspections. I think the critical point is this 'gotcha' mentality, this us against them mentality, that's created, in my opinion, in how the health department's handling it, and it creates animosity, hostility and anxiety and it feels punitive. I think there's no respect in how I see it with the inspector when they're walking into a restaurant.

They're right. I've owned three restaurants and managed them, and having a health inspector walk in in the middle of service, which I had happen to me, when a health inspector walked in, I was cooking chicken, I was in the kitchen, and I took it out and put it on the counter, it's supposed to be put in a cold bath immediately. She walked in and she shut our restaurant down. I understand and I was very upset and I couldn't believe it. It's disruptive and terrible.

There has to be a more coaching-like relationship set up and not this 'gotcha' and bringing in revenue just for the city and restaurateurs thinking that. It's hard enough as it is being a restaurateur, but I think there needs to be a more collaborative effort that takes place, and there's not in the way I see it.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio. We're following up on that moment in Thursday Night's Mayoral Debate where candidate Katheryn Garcia said she would change the surprise inspections of restaurants by the New York City Health Department to announced and scheduled inspections with Charles Platkin, Director of the Hunter College New York City Food Policy Center and a health columnist at Diet Detective. Jeff in New York town, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jeff.

Jeff: Hello, Brian, thanks for taking the call. Just a quick anecdote from a number of years ago. I worked in a restaurant on the Upper West Side. We had had an inspection and then later that day, the inspector showed up with a date for a meal in the restaurant. When he was presented with the cheque, signed it and passed it across to the bartender saying, "This one's on the house." [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Wow. This is garden variety, corruption, extortion of a restaurant meal. Does that happen very often for you as a former restaurant owner, Charles?

Charles: The City has really cleaned up those kinds of things with the Department of Buildings and health inspectors. I would hope that that doesn't happen. I feel like a restaurateur today might report something like that. I think that they're probably very cognizant of that. Look, I had a student that became a health inspector. It's just interesting, the type of personality that's doing this work. Why they're getting this job and why they're looking to do this.

They do have 30 credit hours of Natural Sciences required, they do have to have a bachelor's degree, and they do do months' worth of training before they go out on the street and they do work with an inspector, a senior inspector to learn the ropes. Again, there's corruption everywhere, I'm sure, I just hope that that's not the norm.

Brian Lehrer: Elaine in Hoboken, a former inspector. You're on WNYC. Thanks for calling in, Elaine.

Elaine: Hi, Brian. I retired January of last year from New York State Department of Agriculture. In New York state, the local Health Departments inspect restaurants and institutions, such as hospitals or hotels, and Agriculture inspects the wholesale suppliers and manufacturers as well as retail food store. We had some people who used to work for Health Department come to work for us and I worked with Health Departments on joint inspections when it was unclear.

Like, a lot of places would try to put in groceries so that they would leave Health Department and come to Agriculture. Now, our inspections were also surprise, but our fines were much lower [chuckles]. There was that. I think the problem with the Health Department that burns out the inspectors, and doesn't foster this collaborative education, is that they assign the inspectors randomly. One day their inspector might be on Staten Island and the next day in Queens. Whereas I had the same ZIP code for a couple of years at a time.

I would do the inspection and it would be surprise, which I think is good, and then two months later, I'd go back. I would know if they listened to me, if they did the things I advised. I'm highly educated in microbiology and nutrition and all that. They have a lot of standards for the state, I don't know the city, but I think it would be better-- They were concerned about corruption, about the taking of graft and I always said I wish I had a dollar for every time someone accused me of it during my state career.

Brian Lehrer: I guess that's why they took inspectors off beats where they build relationships with the restaurants because that would be a temptation to corruption, but in losing the relationship, you lose the collaborative building toward cleanliness.

Elaine: Right. I think that all happened after there was a picture on the front page of The Daily News of like rats inside a restaurant and then a week later, there was a picture on the front page of The Daily News of the inspector who had passed them the week before. That's when they did all those massive changes in Health Department, if I remember correctly.

Brian Lehrer: Got it.

Elaine: I think rather than making it a scheduled inspection, they need to foster the idea that these guys' license fees are paying your salary. In agriculture, it's almost direct from what I understood of it. You want to ensure a safe food supply, but you also want to give people their money's worth.

Brian Lehrer: I hear you. [crosstalk] Let me ask you one follow-up question, because you said the inspections that you did as an inspector were surprise. That was the explicit issue in that exchange with mayoral candidate Katheryn Garcia, she would change the surprise inspections to scheduled ones. Did you find that the surprise inspections were important for catching real violations that endanger the public health?

Elaine: I think they're good that people don't expect it. They knew I'd come once a year. Sometimes if I came in April of 2018 and then in 2019 I showed up in February, because if everybody passed, then I don't have to do follow-up inspections, so your window is going to be shorter when you see me, they would get mad like, "Oh, you're not supposed to be here till April." "Well, oh, well."

But, it if was like Christmas Eve, I have to inspect. It's not a government holiday, Christmas Eve, but if you're up-- They knew, I'm not going to be the same way I am on Christmas Eve as I am-

Brian Lehrer: Right, as a restaurant.

Elaine: -as two weeks earlier. You've got to work with people, not overlook, but--

Brian Lehrer: You never did an inspection on Christmas Eve. Right?

Elaine: I did. Of course, I inspected Christmas Eve and the only time I [unintelligible 00:20:18] food on Christmas Eve in the 16 years I was working there is when it was in a retail case and there was overtemperature smoked salmon, because that's your retail case. You got to [unintelligible 00:20:32] concerned.

Brian Lehrer: Elaine, thank you so much for your call and your experiences. I really appreciate it. I would not have expected that any inspections of restaurants take place on Christmas Eve, Charles.

Charles Platkin: Actually, when I was doing research I found that there was an actual Italian bakery that was closed down. Christina Testa, who is a former commissioner, right on Christmas Eve and a politician had caught wind on the closing and tried to pressure the Department to allow it to reopen, but they weren't able to do that. They had mouse droppings, which meant that it was a critical violation. They had to close them down. Yes, she's right. It's not a holiday.

She said some very good things that were really important to unpack. One of the things about the inspections and the randomization of them, the whole goal is that the restaurant doesn't have an opportunity you establish a relationship. I think, just for the audience to really understand, these inspectors have badges. There's this whole mentality, this police mentality that's going on. It's certainly overlooked by some of the reform issues that have come up over the past several years. They've sort of been immune to this, but I think it's really important to unpack this and think about that.

They're walking in with badges into these establishments, and so does the Department of Buildings, they have badges. There's an authority issue here and I think that that requires serious training revamping.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get one more call in here before we run out of time. I think it's going to be a kitchen confidential call from Joe in Greenwich village. Joe, you're on WNYC. Thanks so much for calling in.

Joe: Hi, Brian, thanks for having me. Yes. I worked at a restaurant for many years as a server and a manager for a certain time. It was almost an excitement that happened when the inspector would come. There was a code word that all of the staff knew about. The manager would greet the inspector at the door and then surreptitiously pass the code word throughout the restaurant and there was protocols, everyone had a job to do to help the inspection be successful.

We had to throw out Parmesan cheese, things that we use for pasta. The bread service had to go away because that's not allowed to have bread out open on the counters. Then, the kitchen had a whole another system that would go into place. I remember that the orders that were active in the kitchen at the time would all be shut down for a certain amount of time. Then, you had to deal with the customers who were all very upset that everything had slowed down in their meal service. It was exciting and if it was successful at the end, there was a celebration that would go out throughout the staff.

Brian Lehrer: That's exactly what Katheryn Garcia was saying. Everything would shut down for that night. I heard it from a friend who's been serving in a restaurant, a maître d', that that actually happens, and you're confirming that. Why did they throw out all the stuff? I guess you gave the one example of they're not allowed to have bread out, but do you think there were a lot of unhelpful practices that were going on in your restaurant routinely that were really endangering people's health, or were the regulations too strict?

Joe: No. I don't believe that there-- I think kitchens have a way of operating that don't align with the current regulations. I think even sushi restaurants and raw food bars have a real problem with trying to comply with the food regulations. I'm sure there are illnesses that happen, but I don't know if it's the regulations that are preventing more of those illnesses or else they're just not in step with the kitchen practices.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thank you very much. Charles, as we start to wrap up, that story could be told over and over again. Did it happen to you when they come in during service hours?

Charles Platkin: It shuts down everything. Yes. I think there's critical points here. There are rushes at restaurants. There are critical times, there's a lunch rush and there's a dinner rush. I think that it's important for the inspectors, again, going back to this 'gotcha' mentality, us against them, and badges and walking in and the authority. I think that needs to stop and there needs to be consideration, and it needs to stop this, no pun intended here, cat and mouse game.

I think the Health Department needs to rethink about going in during these critical times and maybe coming up with a collaborative group of advisors with restaurant owners, restaurant workers like we just heard, Health Department officials, elected officials, inspectors, community leaders, community members, and review all of this and discuss it and try to come up with-- and create a working group. I think that would be really critical to change the way this is working right now.

It's very important as we come out of this pandemic and rise from these ashes that these things are thought about, because I know a lot of restaurateurs, they have suffered immensely. This isn't the only thing that should be looked at. There are many others to help them, but certainly this Health Department issue and inspections create such anxiety for staff, cooks, kitchen people and restaurateurs, and it can really impact them financially. I'll finished with this, there's research that shows that restaurants that get a letter grade B have a 3.5% greater chance of closing within a year. That became significant. There was a study done by an NYU PhD candidate. So, it does matter.

Brian Lehrer: In our last 30 seconds, wearing your nutritionist hat, news you can use for our listeners, what are the main reasons people get food poisoning in restaurants when it does happen? Are there certain foods that are more risky to eat out than others?

Charles Platkin: Yes. Raw meats and certainly mollusks and certain sea foods. Yes, those are things you could potentially look at, but you've got to do a visual, an eyesight and a smell test basically. You have to walk into a restaurant, you can look at the letter grade, but you can also, by the way, go online and you could see the history. I know people don't want to do this. I don't suggest you do that to the favorite restaurant with the soup, Brian.

Look at all their inspections online because you might never go there again. Or, if you have the stomach for it, so to speak, check it out. I think the Health Department, in their favor, lists every infraction that the restaurants get in their inspection reports. I think that's really valuable to be able to look up.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I stopped going there before the pandemic because they still had the B, but we'll leave it there. This is not what the mayoral race is going to be decided on, but an interesting follow-up from Thursday night's debate. We thank Charles Platkin, director of the Hunter College New York City Food Policy Center, and a health columnist at Diet Detective. Charles, thanks so much.

Charles Platkin: Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me on the show.

Brian Lehrer: And listeners, thanks for your calls on this.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.