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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Listeners, do you remember the movie You've Got Mail? It's a 1998 Nora Ephron rom-com. Tom Hanks plays a bookstore chain owner who puts Meg Ryan's character, independent bookseller, out of business. We have a clip here from the movie, we'll explain why. In this scene, they wonder just what would happen if Hanks character, Joe, didn't own the big bookstore, and Ryan's character, Kathleen, wasn't an independent owner. Joe wants to know why Kathleen can't forgive him. It's 10 seconds.

Joe: Let me ask you something. How can you forgive this guy for standing you up, and not forgive me for this tiny little thing? I'm putting you out of business.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that was 1998. In 2022, it's a whole other world, in which the corporate Barnes & Noble and little independent bookstores are siding together against the current common foe, Amazon. For the next few minutes, we'll talk about how this unofficial and once unlikely partnership is doing against the tech giant. With me now to discuss all of this is Elizabeth Harris, who covers books and publishing for The New York Times. Hi, Elizabeth, welcome to WNYC.

Elizabeth Harris: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Your recent article is called How Barnes & Noble Went From Villain to Hero. Let's start with when it was a villain. Some of our listeners didn't even live through that era. How did the company operate before the internet, and what was their relationship with independent bookstores?

Elizabeth Harris: Barnes & Noble's business plan, the way it grew so big, its plan was to offer discounts on best sellers and new books, and then to offer a really giant selection. They got people in the door with cheap books, and then they'd offer them tons and tons of full price books once they were there. They were known for squeezing publishers for better terms, and were really considered an existential threat to a lot of independent bookstores.

That all really changed because if you think about that business plan, like some cheap books and a big selection, who does that sound like? That sounds like Amazon, who came in and took their plan and did it better with their seemingly infinite selection and even bigger discounts. Now, Amazon sells more than half of the physical books that are sold in this country, which is enormous, and doesn't even include e-books and audiobooks, where they're incredibly dominant. They're a bigger force than Barnes & Noble was at its peak, even. They're changing position. They've really reshaped the whole industry, and that's changed Barnes & Noble's position too.

Brian Lehrer: Why do the independent bookstores now hope for Barnes & Noble's success? It's still much bigger as a chain than the indies. What does the indies get out of it?

Elizabeth Harris: Sure, absolutely. There are about 600 Barnes & Noble stores. From the independents' perspective, they help keep publishers invested in physical bookstores. You have to have distribution channels that cost money to make sure that you can get books to stores around the country, as opposed to organizing your business so they can be sent to people's homes. If 600 bookstores went out of business, it would become a much less important channel for publishers.

By having Barnes & Noble as a part of their overall landscape, it really does help the physical bookstore channel be strong, and that helps independents stay strong. It helps them keep good relationships, keep distribution relationships with publishers. On the back end of things, it really matters a lot to them.

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if we have anybody listening right now who wants to call in, who owns or works for an independent bookstore, to tell us how business has been maybe in the pandemic era or in the Amazon era, however you want to define this era? 212-433-WNYC, and how you see Barnes & Noble today, for that matter, compared to how you might have seen them 20 or 25 years ago? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I'm fishing here for that very small number of people who may actually work at independent bookstores today. If anybody like that is listening, we would love to hear from you, or tweet @BrianLehrer for Elizabeth Harris from The New York Times, who wrote about this.

You write that with the internet, you lose the "accidental fines". The book you pick up in a store because of its cover, a paperback you see on a stroll through the thriller section. I wonder if that's true because Amazon's algorithm is so focused on, "Hey, you bought that book, you might like this book. How about these 10 books that are in the same category?" It's not the same as strolling through and stumbling upon something, but a lot of things are stumbling upon us.

Elizabeth Harris: It's true. Think about it this way. If you're sitting on Amazon and you go looking for Michelle Obama's book or something like that, and then you get, "Oh, well, people who bought this also like this," or because of your past sale, your past purchases, maybe you want this book. You glance at it, maybe you buy something, maybe you don't. Usually, you just are there to get what you want and then you move on.

The experience of being in a bookstore, they're nice places to be. Books are really pretty physical objects. It's nice and calm in a bookstore. You wander around for 20 minutes. It's not just these algorithmic picks based on stuff you bought before. It could be a bookseller tells you something, it could be overhear a conversation, "Oh, that book sounds cool." It's a much broader landscape of discovery, and it's just more fun to do it for longer. It really is hugely important to publishers of all sizes and to every author, except the very biggest names. If you're not like the Obamas, or John Grisham, or someone like that, you need people to wander into a store and find your book by accident.

People have been trying for years, and no one has really figured out how to replicate that online. Which is another reason that Barnes & Noble is so important for publishers. They need them to survive so that these accidental fines are something that happens a lot. Also, independent bookstores are wonderful, but in a lot of parts of the country, Barnes & Noble is the only game in town. There is no indie. For those markets, publishers and authors really need there to be a Barnes & Noble, and also for readers there. Readers really depend on having a bookstore and being able to go wander around.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, the Bronx is one of those places where Barnes & Noble was the only bookstore for a while, and then that one, I think it was in Bay Plaza, shut down, and then there were no bookstores in the Bronx. I think there may have been one now that has sprung up since. Does a place like the Bronx fit the model, or does the model fit the Bronx, that you're writing about?

Elizabeth Harris: It could apply anywhere. Theoretically, if you live in the Bronx, you can get on a train and go to a bookstore. Are you really going to travel, you get on the train for 45 minutes just to go to a bookstore? Yes, some people will, but it's more like, if you live nearby, if you work nearby, if you're on your way, you're going to go. There are a lot more because you're going to wander in and like, "Oh, I have 20 minutes to kill. I'll go kill it in a bookstore," and, "Whoops, I left with three books. Didn't mean to do that."

Brian Lehrer: Is this part of your argument, that the Barnes & Noble presence in some places might help independent owners start up a shop or maintain a shop rather than overwhelm it, just because publishers will send a lot of books to these smaller towns because a Barnes & Noble is there, and therefore might be more willing to sell to the independent bookstores? Does it work something like that?

Elizabeth Harris: It's not exactly like that. It's a bit more systemic. It's less an individual town needs to have a Barnes & Noble for an independent to do well. It's more that there need to be enough bookstores in the country, enough physical bookstores in the country, for publishers to invest in distribution channels so that they can move books around the country. They don't have to put it in a tube and send it to town A or town B, but they have to like, "Okay, we need to have enough distribution warehouses in these parts of the country. We need to have enough trucks to move the books quickly. We need to have these shipping deals to move them quickly."

It's more systemic than it is individual. I'm sure there are independent stores who would not like a Barnes & Noble right across the street. That's still not necessarily helpful.

Brian Lehrer: Good for them.

Elizabeth Harris: Even unbalanced. I spoke to a bookstore owner who was saying he used to have a Barnes & Noble just a five-minute drive away, there was a Borders five-minute drive away, there was a Costco with a big book section, so there was a lot of competition, all when Amazon was ascendant, but he hung on, but has had very direct competition with Barnes & Noble. He used to find them very threatening. Now, he was still like, "I would prefer not to have them down the block, but even in that circumstance, I would rather they exist than not."

Brian Lehrer: Martin, in West Windsor, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Martin.

Martin: Oh, yes. I was saying to your screener that I collect art books and illustrated books, and I miss a lot of the bookstores that have closed. I used to go to Hacker on 57th Street, which covered only art books. I get a lot of money, I hate to say it, but I get a lot of money through Advanced Book Exchange on a computer because so many independent bookstores are linked with them and you can compare their prices. We also have two Barnes & Nobles in our area, which I do occasionally go to, but their art collection is very small.

Brian Lehrer: Some of those are so tactile in certain ways, in which I'm sure you love going through the bookstores and just touching or seeing them in a physical 3D way that you can't see on a website. Thank you for that call. Sal, in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sal.

Sal: Hi. Good morning. Let me just preface this by saying, sir, I love your show. Ma'am, I enjoyed your article. I am 60. I'm a bookworm. I wrote a little piece called the bookshop of my dreams. I've got to say, when I recently went to Strand and saw these millennials running to and from shattering the piece of my imagined bookshop, I realized I love ordering books online, having them at home and just being with them. I am shocked as anyone to share that with you. That's all I have.

Brian Lehrer: Wait. What were people doing in the Strand that was so upsetting?

Sal: Well, so I went there not that long ago and I said, "But this is not how you're supposed to be in a bookstore." You're supposed to find a book, go off to the side, enjoy it. Instead, I felt like I was in a roller derby. It might be a generational thing.

Brian Lehrer: All right, you're above me.

Sal: Anyway, the isolationist in me said, "No, I'd rather be alone." That's all. Just wanted to share that.

Brian Lehrer: All right, Sal, thank you very much.

Elizabeth Harris: Can I mention something jumping off of that real quick?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Elizabeth Harris: He's mentioning all these young people in a bookstore. That's a good thing. We want that. One thing that Barnes & Noble has done that's been very smart is they've paid a lot of attention to the books that have taken off on TikTok. That's actually become a really big force in bookselling. People, literally just readers, weeping over books they love and posting it on TikTok. It goes viral and books that came out five, six years ago end up on the best seller list.

It's really incredible and really interesting. Barnes & Noble has really paid attention to that. They've had book talk tables at their stores for a long time and they've really pushed it. That's how they're getting to young people partially, and it's smart.

Brian Lehrer: Wouldn't it be accurate to say that despite the decline of physical bookstores, it hasn't precipitated the decline of physical books? That books sell more than ever?

Elizabeth Harris: Yes. Actually, physical bookstores, they haven't declined. It's changed a lot. Actually, independent bookstores had a great year last year. Physical books are still the lifeblood of the industry. Something like 75% of all publishing revenue last year came from physical books. It's so interesting because newspapers, for example, music, movies, totally upended by the internet, but books really haven't been in the same way.

People do buy lots of audio books, e-books, but they have not replaced physical books. Books are selling incredibly well. When everyone was locked at home with nothing to do in 2020, you can only watch the first season of Bridgerton so many times. A lot of people started buying a lot of books and it was a pleasant surprise during a very difficult time for publishers. Then 2021 was a bananas good year. They all did incredibly well and broke a bunch of records.

There's been this cautious expectation as people go back out into the world and there's more competition for entertainment and things like that. They've been watching for things to slow down, but they're actually still doing really well. Book sales are still above pre-pandemic levels. They're not as gangbusters as they were last year, but overall, this year is still doing great. I think there's 30 million more physical books have sold this year than in 2019, just so far. It's interesting.

Brian Lehrer: Incredible. I guess the romance between Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks from You've Got Mail would be easier today than it was in 1998.

Elizabeth Harris: It was such a charming movie, wasn't it?

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there with Elizabeth A. Harris, New York Times reporter covering books and publishing. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth Harris: Thanks for having me.

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