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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Well, this is February 1st, which means it's the first day of Black History Month. Typically when we think of Black history and Black Americans, we're picturing African Americans in the United States, right? Well, we discussed the history of slavery in this country, or Jim Crow, and the civil rights era. We think of icons like Martin Luther King Jr, Rosa Parks, maybe Jackie Robinson, but maybe this conception of Black history should be more Latino as well.

After all, the first Black Americans were not brought to the United States as we think of it, but instead arrived at the Colonial island of Hispaniola, where modern-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic are located. One of the things this show will do for Black History Month is have a conversation about Afro-Latino history every Wednesday, beginning right here, right now on February 1st.

Now some history of Hispaniola and the first Black Americans. With us for this is Lissette Acosta Corniel, Assistant Professor in the Department of Race and Ethnic Studies at the Borough of Manhattan Community College, part of CUNY, of course. She was also part of the CUNY Dominican Studies Institute's Research Project, los primeros negros or the first Blacks, who later became the ancestors of Black Dominicans. Professor Acosta, thank you so much for joining us for this. Happy Black History Month, and welcome to WNYC.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Buenos días. Thank you. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: This term 'first Blacks,' what does it actually refer to and what prompted the research?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Thank you for having us, the Department of Ethnic and Race Studies here at BMCC in my representation. Thank you, Brian, and everyone, and thank you, listeners. The 'first Blacks' refers to the first free enslaved Africans, the 'first Blacks' to be in Hispaniola after the arrival of Christopher Columbus, because there were Blacks already in Brazil, with the colonization through the Portuguese already. What prompted the research is the fact that there's still a lack of literature scholarship being produced about those 'first Blacks' and the African ancestors of the Dominican Republic, which then served as the pioneering enterprise of the transatlantic slave trade.

This is why it was important for Professor Anthony Stevens-Acevedo, who spearheaded this project and all of us involved, to make sure that we provided primary sources to scholars for them to learn more about the 'first Blacks' because there is scholarship produced in the Dominican Republic, but unfortunately, multilingual scholars, many of them don't speak Spanish, and they don't know the real history of the Dominican Republic, and mostly focus on race identity, and really don't discuss where that race identity issue comes from.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and we can include listeners in this conversation, of course. Dominican and Haitian listeners, we have a few prompt for you. How do you or your family members relate to the other half of the island? Do you think of your country's history as Black history? Do you consider yourself Black Dominicans? Do your family members or yourself identify with another term like [unintelligible 00:03:47] or Indio? Also feel free to share some of your family's personal history. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer as we start a series every Wednesday during Black History Month on Afro-Latino history.

Hispaniola eventually became the first place in the continent where Black Americans and/or their descendants were a demographic majority, but I see-- I guess this comes from you that there's a name of an actual first Black person on the island. Do you have that name?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Juan Prieto or Juan Moreno. Prieto is to indicate very, very dark, and Moreno, depending on where you are in Latin America, is to indicate Black. For instance, in Cuba, it's to indicate that you are Black. If you say Moreno in the Dominican Republic Public, it's to say that you are slightly lighter. You are on a lighter shade on the Black side. The other name that he's known by, is Juan Portugués. Historically, he's been documented as Juan Prieto, Juan Moreno, Juan Portugués, who was a free Black, who arrived in Ay-ti because the island was first called Ay-ti, who arrived in Ay-ti with Christopher Columbus in the first voyage of 1492 as Columbus' servant.

Brian Lehrer: How did the Black population go from a singular Juan Moreno, Juan Prieto to the majority of the island's inhabitants?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Right. There were other free Blacks who arrived in the island. There is a register, known, documented free Black woman from the hospital who is known as the person to have instituted the first medical-like facility in the Americas. She welcomed people in her hut, she cured them, and she also received donations from [unintelligible 00:06:07] of the village. [unintelligible 00:06:09] was a word that was used to refer to white colonists. That's important to highlight.

Then in 1503, the Spaniards after the arrival of Governor Nicolás de Ovando, and I don't want to get into this historical lecture, but the first enslaved Blacks arrived to work the gold mines. Immediately after they arrived, the governor wrote to the Spanish crown and said, "Do not send any more Blacks because they're running away, we cannot control them." in Italy in 1504, 1505.

Subsequently, for the next decade, free Blacks arrived in the island, they were requesting travel licenses but also enslaved Blacks that were being brought, personal enslaved people for personal use. It was not until 1518 that you have the first shipment of traffic humans, a quantity of 4,000. This is when the Spaniards signed a decree that they called an Asiento. That was a contract that was given to traffickers allowed to traffic the enslaved Africans. That is the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade in what today is the Dominican Republic.

Brian Lehrer: Before we take a phone call, Sarah in the Bronx, we see you, you're going to be first. You're talking about 1518. When we hear the 1619 project, and one of the successes of that project is that more or less everybody knows that date now, for the arrival of the first enslaved Africans on the US mainland, you're talking about 100 years earlier, when the first enslaved Africans arrived on Hispaniola, the island that is now the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Why did the Spanish choose to go to Africa to obtain slaves?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: They saw the opportunity, the success of the Portuguese, and they wanted to explore, and because of how the hemisphere was divided through a purple [unintelligible 00:08:28] they had to negotiate and use the Portuguese as middlemen to get cheap labor from Africa and traffic them to the Americas.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you, Brian. Thank you. I'm so happy to be the first, and thank you to your speaker for this history. I am from the Dominican Republic. I've been in New York for, I don't know, 60 years. I'm very light-skinned Dominican, but I have very curly hair, you obviously can see that I'm a woman of color, but it wasn't until almost 20 years ago that I started identifying myself with being Afro-Latina.

As your speaker might know, there is this history of we're always trying to avoid being Black in the Dominican Republic. My father was very dark. I always thought he was born in the Dominican Republic, but it was about 20 years ago that I found out he was actually from the British Virgin Islands. That opened up something even bigger for me, where I started to identify and exercise the history, not only the struggle, but the successes, and how much we work to better ourselves. All I want is to be able to reach out to my Afro-Latina women of color, identify yourself with Africans because we have such a rich history and we need to be able to say, "I am Black. I'm not just Dominican, I'm also Black." It's something that once we do that and you start wearing your hair and doing all the things that identify you with your race, is so empowering. So thank you for this segment, Brian, I really love it.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much, Sarah. Professor Acosta, that must be music to your ears, right? Somebody with that sense of history and light-skinned Dominican as she described herself identifying that broadly.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: I think that in her case, Sarah, our listener, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: I think that in her case, she said light-skinned Dominican. There is a saying in the Dominican Republic, and Ginetta Candelario wrote a book, Black behind the ears, and [unintelligible 00:10:49] Everyone is Black because you will find it in the back of your ear if you do some digging. Carlos Esteban Deive wrote the book, Where is Your Grandmother. [foreign language] That is to say, when you say, "Oh, I'm Dominican, yes, but my ancestors are from Spain." Then you would ask [foreign language] Where's your grandmother? Get her out of the closet. Where are you great grandparents? Let's see what they look like.

Brian, I want to go back to something because you mentioned the 1619 project and the century between 1518, which is when the first Asiento was signed for the enslaved to arrive. I also want to point out that before 1619, in about 1526, I know that it's before 1530, approximately 100 enslaved Africans were brought to North America with the Spaniards who attempted to colonize North America. There was a settlement near Georgia. They called it San Miguel de Gualdape. We already know the history with the Spaniards in Florida. I just wanted to make sure that we know that the Black history and presence in the US goes way, way back.

Brian Lehrer: Who else, listeners, who's Dominican or Haitian wants to tell a story of your family, your identity, ask a question of our guest, Lissette Acosta Corniel, from the Department of Race and Ethnic Studies at the Borough of Manhattan Community College as we talk about Afro Latino history on the island of Hispaniola today? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Tell us a little of your family story, your identity, ask a question, 212-433-9692. What happened to the Taínos, the indigenous people on Hispaniola, if it became Black majority so quickly?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: The majority of the Taíno population, the Taíno Arawak population unfortunately started to disappear because of diseases, because of the hard labor, but contrary to what many people believe, there is documented information that you still found despite the small numbers. Taíno presence in the 1560s Hispaniola, even in 1580, I just saw a colleague of mine who found this document and the woman is described as [unintelligible 00:13:37]

Even in the 1606 census of Hispaniola, there is a very small number of Taínos reported. That the country itself in terms of our phenotype, that has been debatable, but in the DNA, it has been traced in the Dominican people who have been interested in doing this type of experience. Of course, it's still in our culture.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Hispaniola, again, for people who don't know, is the island that now includes the Dominican Republic and Haiti. When and how did Hispaniola get divided between the French and the Spanish? How did those divisions come about?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: We're going to need a whole show, Brian, but--

Brian Lehrer: Give us the radio sound bite version of God knows how much history.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Okay. The Spaniards arrived there and the island is Haiti, 1492. They decide that they're going to call it La Española, meaning belonging to Spain, or what we know in English as Hispaniola. The entire island is populated and it is known as Hispaniola. However, in the early 16th, 17th century, in 1610, mid-1610, mid-1600s, the French slowly started moving in into the island and eventually they settled on [unintelligible 00:15:14] island, which today belongs to Haiti. They slowly began to take territory.

The Spaniards, they said, "You know what, it's too many of them. They're not causing any trouble. They can stay on their Spaniard political reign, but they can do their own thing." What happened was that the Spaniards realized that that side of the island was thriving. They were producing sugar, they were producing slaves, they were producing coffee. Eventually, the Spaniards, they said, "You know what, okay, we're going to divide it and you're going to be French Saint-Domingue, and we're going to be Spanish Santo Domingo."

This unofficially happened in the late 1600s. However, in 1697, through a treaty, the Treaty of Ryswick, they officially divided it, but they didn't create a border. So it was French Saint-Domingue, Spanish Santo Domingo. Then we had the Haitian Revolution in 1791. Through France and Spain, they go to war, and in 1795 with the treaty of Basel. They now, Spain cedes Spanish Santo Domingo to French.

Now the island is French for a very short period of time because then [unintelligible 00:16:41] went over to Spanish side and freed the enslaved. That is the first abolition that we have in what today is the Dominican Republic, but then Haiti declares its independence in 1804 and the French invade Santo Domingo, the Spanish side, so now we are ambivalent on our side and Haiti is for the first time Haiti. Then we are in 18-- We again are ambivalently Spanish Santo Domingo, but in 1822, with the Haitian invasion, we are Haiti, the entire island. In 1844, we are for the first time the Dominican Republic with a Dominican independence and Haiti.

Then in 1863, '61, again, with the arrival of the Spaniards, even the soldiers, Anne Eller says in her book, We Dream Together, the soldiers were saying, "Wait, so where are we going? How do we call this? Because we don't know anymore." Then you have again Spanish or what was the Dominican Republic in 1844, that we don't know who we are and the other side is Haiti. Then through the restoration war in 1865, we are again the Dominican Republic and Haiti. That's what it has been since then.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to have to stop there in 1865, that was fascinating, so that we have time to get some more stories on here. By the way, Ali in Hollis, we see you, that you want to challenge the term Afro-Latino. We're going to get to you, but let's do a few more family stories first. Daniel in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Hi, good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate that.

Brian Lehrer: Of course.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Good morning, Daniel.

Daniel: Yes, I'm from the Dominican Republic. I'm being here in the United States for 11 years. I have a short story about my oldest daughter. When she was about three, four years old, her Godfather got her two Barbie dolls. One Black, one white. This is a true story. I didn't notice in the beginning. My friend, her Godfather, was the one who noticed. "Did you notice that she hasn't played with the Black doll?" That's days after he got her the dolls. I said, "Let me take a look at that." I started looking at that and it was true. She wasn't playing with the Black doll.

So I asked her, "Why don't you play with the Black doll?" "Because the white doll is more beautiful." I said, "What's your color? Look at your color, look at the Black doll's." Because I'm Black. My father was Haitian and my mom was Dominican. However, I don't even have my father's last name because I didn't meet my father until I was like 11 years old, for the same reason we go back and forth between the Dominican Republic, not in a good way, and Haiti.

Brian Lehrer: What did your daughter say? Forgive me for moving you along. I want to get a few callers in here. What did your daughter say when you said look at your own skin color?

Daniel: Yes. My daughter, initially, she's thinking that in her brain, the white doll is more beautiful than her own color. When I asked her, "The black doll is your own color." She started to look at it differently. After that, from that point on, she started to look at life that Black is beautiful. That's the bottom line.

Brian Lehrer: That's a great story. A great story of great parenting, it sounds like. Max in Manhattan, you are on WNYC. Hi, Max.

Max: Hi. How are you today?

Brian Lehrer: Good, thank you. Tell us your story.

Max: My story is that, you see, my mom was from a part of the Dominican Republic, it's called Baní. Mostly the people there are just white people. My father is from San Pedro De Macorís, which it's really dark. I'm a mixture, but what I understood was that the Black came to the island was because Spanish people were enslaving [unintelligible 00:21:22] Indians. It was a lot of views there. They decided to bring the Black from Africa. That's how they wind up there. I don't know the story, but that's what I learned in the DR. I'm 50 years in this country.

Lissette Acosta Corniel: That's accurate.

Brian Lehrer: Max, thank you. Thank you very much. Max, how does it make you feel knowing that history?

Max: Oh, no. In my family we all mix, different colors. We never [unintelligible 00:22:04] only politics. For me, in the DR, the problem is it doesn't matter what color are you. If you are Black or whatever, if you got money, that's what really counts over there. Nothing [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Max, thank you very much. All right. We're going to get Ali in Hollis in here as we're starting to run out of time with Professor Acosta Corniel from Borough of Manhattan Community College. Ali, you want to challenge the term Afro-Latino, right?

Ali: Yes, sir. Good morning to you and the professor. My name is Ali Abdul Perez. I was born in the largest Caribbean island in the Caribbean. I've been in this country over 50 years. In that time, I have learned to identify myself as an African, not Afro, because I've learned that an Afro to me and to a lot of people you're referring to a hairstyle, that's one. Number two, when you say Latin, what are you actually referring to about? Okay. A lot of people don't know, they call themselves Latin or Latino or Latina, but what are they saying? Latino is not a race, it's not a nationality, nor is it a heritage.

Brian Lehrer: Ali, I'm going to leave it there because we're running out of time in this segment, but Professor Acosta Corniel, do you want to respond to him substantively? I'm saying we're going to talk about Afro-Latino history every Wednesday on the show during Black History Month. Should I be saying something else?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: No, I use the term Afro-Latina, and I use Afro to indicate my African ancestry and Latina to refer to the geographical space that we occupy in Latin America. That is what it means. There's a difference between Latino and Hispanic. Hispanic, you speak Spanish, Latino if you are from Latin America. I think, yes, some people may reject the topic. I personally use it and I identify as Afro-Latina.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a place where people can see your work or the research that you talked about at the beginning of the segment, the first Blacks research?

Lissette Acosta Corniel: Yes. They can go to firstblacks.org or in Spanish. The website's also in Spanish, losprimerosnegros.org, or simply come to my website at BMCC, at the Department of Ethnic and Race Studies, and they can come to my page, look at the articles. I just published the articles, one about Elena, an enslaved woman who used to escape to dance. That was noted as her worst flaw in the Bill of sale, and Juana Gelofa Pelona, an insubordinate slave who testify against her owners. That's where you can find my research. Thank you. Thank you, Brian, for this space.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much for joining us. This was fascinating and wonderful and warm. Listeners, as I said, we will be talking about Afro-Latino history every Wednesday during Black History Month here on The Brian Lehrer Show.

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