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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Ahead of Thanksgiving, we want to take a look at the state of food insecurity in and around New York City. Despite unemployment trending down, food pantries and soup kitchens are still experiencing great need and great demand. City Harvest, one of the leading local organizations dedicated to fighting food insecurity, says it will deliver about 77 million pounds of rescued food to food pantries, soup kitchens, and its own mobile markets this year, 77 million pounds.

We'll get into some of the work that the organization has undertaken with City Harvest's chief policy and operations officer, Carlos Rodriguez, and look at the situation citywide and regionwide. He's the former president and CEO of Community Food Bank of New Jersey, former executive director of the FoodBank of Monmouth & Ocean Counties known as Fulfill NJ, and former vice president of agency relations and benefit access at the Food Bank For New York City. Carlos, welcome to WNYC. Happy Thanksgiving and thank you for coming on with us.

Carlos Rodriguez: Happy Thanksgiving to you and thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: You want to remind everybody briefly what City Harvest does and how it helps to fight hunger in New York?

Carlos Rodriguez: Well, absolutely. City Harvest is the first and largest food rescue organization. We collect fresh and nutritious food that could otherwise go to waste and we provide it to the millions of New Yorkers who struggled to put meals on the tables.

Brian Lehrer: What is the state of hunger in New York City right now? How would you begin to characterize it?

Carlos Rodriguez: Well, hunger is unfortunately on the rise. We see it by looking at the percentage of working-age households that are struggling to make ends meet. Unfortunately, that's up to 50% of all working-age households in New York City are struggling. That is up from 36% before the pandemic and that works out to be roughly three million New Yorkers. It's not just during the holidays, but it's a year-round problem. It's one that City Harvest, during this time of year and throughout the entire year, really work to address. We've worked to address it with nutritious products, mostly fresh produce.

Brian Lehrer: Let me break down those numbers or ask you to break down those numbers a little more for us. You just cited a big number of people experiencing food insecurity compared to before the pandemic. The unemployment rate, as I cited in the intro, is backed down to about pre-pandemic levels. Are you saying the food insecurity rates have not come down commensurate with unemployment?

Carlos Rodriguez: Food insecurity rates have gone up despite unemployment going down. The reason for that is that when you think of the food-insecure individual or household, it's many who actually have someone in the household who's working. Food insecurity is actually when the income you're bringing and the resources you have are just not enough to make ends meet. Pay high cost of living, whether it's shelter or other expenses, and put food on the table, take care of health needs, or quite simply manage through an economic shock that can look as simple as a car repair or as an untimely bill.

Brian Lehrer: You want to make that distinction for listeners who aren't clear what the term "food insecurity" means between actual hunger and food insecurity?

Carlos Rodriguez: That's a great question. Hunger is actually a symptom of food insecurity. When you are hungry, you have a physical yearning for food. "Hunger pangs" as they're called. Food insecurity is when you don't know whether you'll be able to provide your next meal for yourself, for your family. In New York City, we have a high number of food-insecure families who, if it were not for pantries and soup kitchens, would actually be in danger of going hungry or be more hungry that they might be feeling.

Brian Lehrer: Demand in the meantime is actually up. People needing help with putting food on the table at this time compared to before the pandemic or even the first phases of the pandemic. Demand is up at food pantries and soup kitchens?

Carlos Rodriguez: They are. Our pantries and soup kitchens and network partners are telling us that they're seeing a million more visits a month than they were just last year. When you step back and look at the high cost of food inflation and then just the higher cost of inflation overall, it's not hard to imagine why families are having a hard time making ends meet.

Brian Lehrer: Where in the city and, for that matter, in the region, since you used to direct a lot of this effort in New Jersey, where is food insecurity most acute in our area?

Carlos Rodriguez: That's a great question. The truth is that you can find food insecurity just about in every community throughout New York City and that's certainly true around the country. They are a family struggling. We say it's our neighbor because it's something that happens to closed doors and to many working families in addition to that. It really is a neighbor, someone working alongside of you, or as you go shopping or go about your day, there could be someone who is struggling to put food on the table either for themselves or for their family or who is sacrificing adequate food so that they can just stretch their food budget a little bit more.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners, we can take some phone calls on hunger and food insecurity in our area. Maybe you are experiencing it right now for yourself or your family. Help put a particular individual human face on the broader story here if you would like to, 212-433-WNYC, and say what you think might be needed at the policy level or the relief level to help alleviate it. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or anyone who works in the food relief area or fighting food insecurity area.

212-433-9692. Help us report this story. What are the conditions out there that some other listeners might not be aware of? What are people experiencing out there who you may work with if you are not those people yourself? 212-433-9692 or you can ask any question of our guest, City Harvest's chief policy and operations officer, Carlos Rodriguez. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text.

Carlos, as of October, as I'm sure you know, there were about 65,000 migrants, asylum seekers staying in the city's homeless shelters according to Deputy Mayor Anne Williams-Isom, who cited that number last month. Since spring of 2022, more than 100,000 migrants have arrived in the city. Has the arrival of so many asylum seekers affected where and how City Harvest operates?

Carlos Rodriguez: Well, part of New York City's rich history is we're constantly welcoming new New Yorkers and so this new wave of migrants is not something different. As they get on their feet and come to do what they thrive to do like so many migrants before them, some of them fall on hard times or some of them need that hand up, if you would. It might be that some of them need some food assistance. We know that the city is coordinating shelter and primary food and we work closely with them.

We have been hearing anecdotally from some programs in the vicinity of some of those shelters that they've seen an increase in folks that work out to be disproportionate to what we're seeing overall around the city. We're monitoring that, continuing to work with the city, and really making sure that all New Yorkers, whether you're newly arrived or have been here for generations, have the nourishment that you need to be as economically mobile and successful as our rich history wants us to be.

Brian Lehrer: How does that generally work if you're familiar with it? For the 60,000-plus asylum seekers who are actually in the shelter system, does the city serve them meals at the shelters or how does that work?

Carlos Rodriguez: Yes, the city is providing meals in addition to shelter, is our understanding. It's available for them and so they can access them as they go about and get work or go through the process of becoming new New Yorkers. I think it's just a matter of the access enough or, as they move on from the shelters, do they then also find themselves in continuous need?

Brian Lehrer: Evelyn in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Evelyn.

Evelyn: Hi there. How is it going?

Brian Lehrer: It's going all right.

Evelyn: Okay, I'm calling because I'm kind of in a weird group. I'm middle class, upper middle class, but I'm going through a divorce. There's such a huge backup in family court and divorce court. I have never gotten child support since 2018. I've been trying. Often, I get services from domestic violence organizations. I go to the Met Council, no questions asked, once a month. I'm load up with food, but I would never even tell anybody about it because I own my apartment. I am not in a poverty group, but I think that food banks are making up for what family court is not providing.

Brian Lehrer: I'm so glad you brought this up because it's an area that is underground in many respects. Evelyn, thank you very much. Is it a category that you identify explicitly in the food relief sector, women primarily who may be going through a family breakup or a domestic violence situation and may even, like in the caller's case, be perceived as a middle-class or upper-middle-class person but have food insecurity needs because of their domestic situation?

Carlos Rodriguez: Well, first, Evelyn, thank you for sharing your story because it does shed a light on the fact that it is disproportionately women and children who we're trying to make sure have the nourishment that they need. That misperception that it's not this population, it's some other population, I think, is important to note. Food-insecure New Yorkers are a very diverse group.

They're as diverse as our city in every sense of the word, whether they're working, going through different types of hardship. The important message is that this food safety net is there for you. It is so important that as you're working through this struggle, unfortunately, that you have the nourishment you need and your family needs so that you can get back to the life that you want and continue to nourish your children so they can do well in school and continue to grow and thrive.

Brian Lehrer: Evelyn, good luck, and thank you for the courage that I think it took to make that call and tell that part of your story out loud. David in Middlesex County, you're on WNYC. Hi, David.

David: Hey, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Doing all right.

David: All right, good. Listen, I just had a couple of comments. Number one, I'm a school bus driver in Middlesex County. I've been driving a school bus for about 13 years. I had worked previously in DC for about 16 years before 9/11. This is what happened. When the pandemic started in March of 2020, I waited a couple of weeks to file my unemployment because I knew everybody was going to try to jump on there at the same time. I knew it was going to crash because they're using mainframes that we were using back in '85 down in Washington.

I had an issue. I had to file a claim because something happened. All the unemployment was just terrible at that time. I didn't actually get my unemployment money until almost October 1st and I filed my claim April 17th. That whole summer didn't have any money. I'm 5'9", 150 pounds. I cycled for 18 years. I got 4% body fat. I lost about 18 pounds skipping meals that whole summer from April to October 1st of 2020 because I didn't have any money. You can't buy food without money. The cost of food is terrible. They need to do something about the cost. That's the bottom line.

Brian Lehrer: David, thank you very much for your call. Another kind of story that might not be the first category of people who a lot of other people think about Carlos when it comes to food insecurity or not being able to afford your meals for a while, right? Somebody who, if I understood his story correctly, became temporarily unemployed and the system was so slow. He didn't have money for food and needed something like a food pantry or a soup kitchen perhaps to fill in the gaps.

Carlos Rodriguez: It's a story that unfortunately is too common, that episodic need as you're waiting for another piece of the safety net to kick in, and people do what they can to survive. Sometimes they don't find a local food provider in time and have to go without meals as David unfortunately had to. That episodic need, I think, is what's driving so many to pantries and shelters and soup kitchens, I should say, throughout the city and throughout the region. It's a very similar story.

It's that episodic need while something else kicks in or while work stabilizes in some form. The other piece that we're hearing consistently and I've heard throughout the region is I'm trying to dig myself out from whatever that financial hardship was that was created during the pandemic. Now, I'm met with a high cost of food. It's making it that much more harder for me to find financial stability. Those compounding realities, I think, is what so many of our neighbors are going through in the entire region but especially in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Hey, I want to ask you a question regarding very local food drives, right? It's one thing to donate to City Harvest. We'll talk about how you get some of your actual food to deliver to people who need it. There's a lot of school-based food drives and other community, very local food drives where people bring cans of things and whatever else that they might have.

I wonder if you have any insights or advice on the specific needs that people may not be aware of, useful things to bring to these food drives. Maybe there are things that people will typically bring, some of their canned goods that they have around, or they'll go out and buy some, but maybe it's not always the obvious things. I wonder if you have experience with local food drives where people aren't donating money but actually donating foodstuffs and where the actual needs are.

Carlos Rodriguez: Non-perishable items are always in high demand by our pantries. We focus and have always focused on making sure that it's the most nutritionally-dense product that you can get. Vegetables, if you're doing fruits and cans, having them in their own fruit juices. Mixes are very popular, mixes such as a pancake batter or things like that that can go and feed a family or provide breakfast for a while. Most pantries, when they're a part of a food drive, actually have a list of most desirable items.

When you're connecting to a pantry or your local food bank or food rescue organization, it's always great to just visit their website or get in touch with them because they'll tell you what they need. Local food is a great way to create engagement and awareness around the issue. Not necessarily the most effective way to purchase food, but it is such an important part of creating awareness and broad-based engagement throughout the community.

Brian Lehrer: I brought up that question because one of my colleagues saw something in a Facebook group saying that during food drives, what pantries actually need are things like shelf-stable milk, oil, birthday cake mix, and frosting, a few other items I wouldn't have thought of. They were saying they're inundated with stuff like Kraft macaroni and cheese and canned veggies, but they really also need those other kinds of things that I just mentioned.

Carlos Rodriguez: That's exactly right. I think it's important because every pantry will be reflective of the need of their local community and are looking to fill in for what they're getting from either City Harvest or wherever they're getting the majority of their food from. It's always great to make that connection and it's a good way to just learn about your community's needs as well. At City Harvest, our focus is providing fresh produce and perishable items. We're really looking to rescue products that could otherwise go to waste and really focusing on things that have a high nutritional impact as well.

Brian Lehrer: Imagine having to get your kids' birthday cake mix and frosting from a food pantry. Just the idea of it breaks your heart, right?

Carlos Rodriguez: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Bob in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bob.

Bob: Hi. How are you? Thanks for taking the call. Long time, long time. I think one thing that might help would be to change some of the laws. My understanding is that people that sell meat produce, whatever, have to throw out the food after a certain period of time. The city has a couple of laws that you can't donate those food to charity and you can't give it away prior to discard. I understand. There are health and safety issues, but I think changing those two things might at least be able to provide some materials to people that are able to cook or distribute those things.

My second idea was that there's got to be somebody somewhere that can put up an internet website that is only accessible by food pantries, places like City Harvest, et cetera, where some food collectors or providers could say, "Look, this is what I have. This is what I got extra. Maybe this would be of interest to someone in some particular community around there and you can come and get it."

Brian Lehrer: That's a lot of what City Harvest does, something like that, right? Talk to Bob, [crosstalk} answer his question. I don't want to characterize it for City Harvest. Carlos, you tell him how close the kind of thing you do is to the kind of thing that he's describing, and he also brings up the restrictions on what kinds of food can be donated. I know you collect what you call rescue food.

Carlos Rodriguez: Yes. Actually, I'm not familiar with the laws that Bob is referencing because, in fact, there's a lot of incentive and a lot of promotion in donating product instead of discarding it. We work with retailers at every level from the local store to regional hubs and wholesalers to be able to rescue food that may not be appropriate to go to market, but it's still very usable. In fact, high-quality product in many cases and highly nutritious product. We work with them to make sure that it is just food safe, that it's within that window of usability and provided to the pantries and soup kitchens throughout our community.

Brian Lehrer: What can't you pick up?

Carlos Rodriguez: There's not much that we can't pick up. I use the example of fresh milk. Even fresh milk, the cow is not that exact. While stores can't sell it by a certain date, there is a window of usability that we work to rescue it and connect it and put it in the hands of a family while it's still usable. This whole concept of food expires on a whole date is very misleading. I like to say if you couldn't eat expired food, I never would've made it out of college. Never mind. Probably out of the South Bronx. There is a lot of education that we do with retailers and donors and the general public alongside of what is usable so that it's safe, nutritious, and can be put in the hands of those that need it.

Brian Lehrer: As we run out of time, is City Harvest doing anything specific on Thanksgiving that you want to shout out?

Carlos Rodriguez: Oh, absolutely. Thanksgiving is one of the times where we want to make sure that-- especially families that are having a hard time throughout the year don't have the added anxiety and stress of not being able to provide food during this important holiday. We're very fortunate with the help of the community to be able to provide this year more than 14,000 turkeys to families throughout New York City and other items to really make that Thanksgiving meal come whole. None of that would be possible without the generosity of the community. Every 43¢ donated to City Harvest helps deliver a pound of food. Donations really go a long way, not just this holiday season but to help us fuel our response throughout the entire year.

Brian Lehrer: Carlos Rodriguez, chief policy and operations officer for City Harvest. Thanks so much for your work. Thanks for coming on today. Happy Thanksgiving.

Carlos Rodriguez: Thanks to you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

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