[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and picking up where we left off with Tiller from the Washington Post. We'll talk now about one of the things that President Biden said in his State of the Union address when referring to the police killing of Tyree Nicholas. That doesn't seem to be drawing much right-wing backlash but when Bill de Blasio who's going to join us in a minute, once said something similar when he was the mayor, the backlash was fierce. Here's President Biden after bringing up the police killing of Tyree Nicholas in the State of the Union address.

President Biden: Most of us in here have never had to have the talk. The talk that brown and Black parents have had to have with their children. Beau, Hunter, Ashley, my children, I never had to have a talk with them. I never had to tell them if a police officer pulls you over, turn your interior lights on right away. Don't reach your license. Keep your hands on the steering wheel. Imagine having to worry like that every single time. You keep getting a car.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden Tuesday night. Now listen to de Blasio in December of 2014, just after a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict any police officers in the chokehold death of Eric Garner. de Blasio talked about having had the talk with his own black son, Dante.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: We've had to literally train him as families have all over this city for decades, and how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him.

Brian Lehrer: After de Blasio said that the police union in New York City turned on him. I would say never forgave him. Now we'll do two things. We'll talk to the former mayor here in just a second, but also listeners who have ever had any version of the talk with your own kids, or if your parents ever had any version of it with you, you're invited to call up and describe what you said, or what was said to you. 212433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

We've done this before on the show but I think this is a good moment to do it again, let other people hear the stories if they don't know them. 212-433-9692. Listeners who have ever had any version of the talk with your own kids, or if your parents ever had the talk with you, you're invited to call up and describe what you said, or what was said to you. Also, you could say if you think anything has changed, let's say from 2014 until now or from whatever until now. 212433-WNYC.

If you're a police officer or have ever been a police officer you're invited to call too. After so many incidents in the years since 2014, George Floyd and Tyree Nicholas most famously also Laquan McDonald in Chicago, and other cases where the police not only committed these crimes of police brutality, but tried to cover them up, but got caught because there was video. Officers do you maybe not getting angry anymore at a politician, at Joe Biden or Bill de Blasio or whoever, who mentioned it as an example of inequality in this country, and asks that more be done?

212433-WNYC, 433-9692. As your calls are coming in, we welcome back to the show on that subject and maybe a few other things. For the first time since leaving office, Mayor Bill de Blasio. Mr. Mayor, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Well, I've missed you, Brian. It's nice to hear your voice again.

Brian Lehrer: Back at you. I'll get right to the political point here. I haven't heard or seen evidence of the backlash from police unions or generally on the right after the State of the Union that we heard after you refer to the talk in that clip we played from 2014. Do you think something politically has changed?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I do. I hope something's changed. I believe something's changed but Brian, I think, really, for a moment to note, the power of the President United States saying what he said. I'm so glad you played that clip. I now tip my cap to Joe Biden for the way he did that, for choosing to put it in the State of the Union. First of all, which I think for millions of American parents was a show of respect and understanding that people really really need it, but also just the humanity and kindness with which he portrayed what people are going through and the worry that parents have and I can relate to it so personally, that worry never ends.

Literally never ends. It was so good that he said, "Look, most people in the chamber hadn't had that situation, but put yourself in the shoes of parents who worry every single day that their child who was trying to do the right thing could end up in a tragic situation." That honesty, while at the same time, I think Joe Biden really appreciates and understands how important the work of our police is and respects them and shows that respect, I think it was very powerful but to your question, I do think it's striking that there hasn't been thank God a negative reaction.

I think it's because the conversation about policing and about structural racism has advanced a lot in the almost 10 years since I said what I said and that's something we should feel good about. We got so much more to do but something has changed, that we're being more honest about it now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take our first phone call right away. Bola in South Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bola. Thank you very much for calling in.

Bola: Hi, Brian. Hi, mayor. Thanks for raising this. I have had the talk with my two daughters. It's not a one-time conversation. It's ongoing. I explained to them, no eye-rolling. How do you explain to teenagers that you shouldn't roll your eyes when the cop stops you and that the onus is on their little shoulders to de-escalate the situation when they are stopped by adult police? Even now my older daughter is in her 20s, the younger's 19.

We live in Summit, New Jersey area and I still remind them when they go out to the grocery store, which is seven minutes drive away, "Please be careful." The anxiety and mood it's really negative for them for us. Then I also wonder about the police. They're all bad eggs, they say but isn't the onus on the police also to want to make professionalism part of their daily lives and hold themselves accountable? That's all I have to say. Thanks.

Brian Lehrer: Bola, thank you very much. Debra in Jersey City, you're on WNYC. Hi, Debra.

Debra: Hi, Brian. Yes, I don't have any children but I actually have given a talk to one of my nephew many, many years ago, probably in the late 90s, early 2000s. I recently I would say within the last year, year and a half, two years, my grandniece was going off to college in California. I gave her a reminder talk because apparently her father had already talked to her. She grew up in Virginia. I don't know that the experience of a Black female is as frequent as the problem that the police are having with Black males because I have been stopped by the police.

I remembered what I had told them. I was just very polite. They were polite. I didn't make a big deal about giving them my ID. I spoke to them. They gave me their badges and everything. It was a pleasant experience with the fact that I even had to give her a reminder talk, and I don't have children for that people still have to do it, doesn't say much for this country. It seems like any progress we had has stopped and we're going backward. It's still sad that in 2023 we are still going through the same thing and people are still having to talk to their relatives, their Black or brown relatives, and give them the talk. It's very sad.

Brian Lehrer: Debra, thank you very much. On how much progress has been made. Mr. Mayor, you know many advocates argue now that the kinds of reforms that police departments and mayors are enacting aren't mattering that much anyway. Including body cams and whatever new training because the George Floyd killing happened years into this era, the Tyree Nicholas killing happened with body cams rolling and the number of fatal police encounters since 2015 nationally, and the percentage of Black Americans who were killed in those encounters has remained virtually unchanged at around 1000 fatal police encounters a year.

These are all reasons that as you know many progressives call for moving away from policing as much as possible to other drivers of public safety, like good housing and mental health care, and violence interrupter groups. Can you argue with your experience and professional and personal stake in the topic that conventional reforms are even making the talk any less necessary than it was when you had it with Dante 10 or more years ago.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I do feel that. I'll tell you, I don't disagree if someone says it's not enough progress, of course, it's not enough progress. We have profound issues in the culture of policing that have to be addressed and the most foundational needs, like training all police in this country, in de-escalation training everyone in implicit bias. There's a lot we're not even scratching the surface of yet.

I guess what I'd say first of all is do we need a lot more change? Yes, we need a lot more change. Do I agree that the things that are real tangible reforms have already happened everywhere in the country and have been deeply felt? No, a lot of them have just started. I think it's really important to recognize that you put body cameras, de-escalation training, implicit bias training into play. For the vast majority of officers, that's going to have a really big impact. You'd sure as hell rather have all those things than not. I think that's important in this discussion.

If you say it's not enough, we need to do more, are you saying take away those reforms? As a parent, no way in hell would I want those reforms taken away. When I think about my own son, I feel it's powerful that police have been taught to de-escalate, they've been taught implicit bias. They have body cameras. I sure as hell as a parent would rather have those things affecting their behavior.

Brian Lehrer: Where's the evidence of the difference?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I would say in this city, and I don't have specific statistics for you. I will only tell you my own experience. I saw in all of my conversations with people in communities of color, I saw the impact of neighborhood policing. I saw the impact of retraining the police. I think there are many, many incidents that did not occur as a result. How do you report on something that didn't occur? That's a challenge. I just feel it based on everything I saw in New York which is different than every place else because the reforms we've put in place were honestly more extensive than what's happened in the vast majority of the country.

Deescalation training is not the norm in this country, and it needs to be. I'm speaking very much as a parent and saying, I want all that and then I want more. What I do know is where we were before all of that, it was dangerous for everyone involved. We're talking about a situation where everyone is put in danger if there's not the right approach, for example in a traffic stop. It was important to reduce the whole reality by getting rid of the unconstitutional use of stop and frisk for example and reducing arrest where it was unnecessary.

There's a lot of things that just many, many fewer encounters that were unnecessary that was good to begin with. Where there is going to be an encounter, it's actually about everyone's safety to get it right. I truly believe those approaches make a difference.

Brian Lehrer: Charles, in Harlem, you are on WNYC. Hi, Charles.

Charles: Hey, good morning Brian. Good morning, Mr. Mayor. I grew up in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the '60s African American family, working class. My father was a cop, a Black cop in 1960s Philadelphia, part of that first generation of black cops. Frankly, I don't know how old you are, Brian, but if you remember the mayor of Philadelphia then was Frank Rizzo, had pretty a nasty racist reputation. My father knew how his coworkers were, and he was very particular about how I was to respond if ever I was stopped by a cop, and just like you said, how to hold your hands, turn the inside light on, et cetera. That got me pretty much through my younger years. I'm really grateful for my father in how he told me to handle that.

Also, his experience as being a Black cop right within a larger white police department revealed to me as I was thinking about the responses of the police department to president Biden versus the response to the police department to the mayor, was that Biden didn't have to have that talk with his sons. The mayor did have to have the talk with his son because he had a Black son, which implies that he is acting like a Black father. In a way, the cops that reacted that were the white-identified cops may have seen, I think it was racist. I think they may have seen Mr. de Blasio as a race traitor.

That was part of the response. I'm not sure how the police union reacted to it. From what I saw, most of the cops that reacted to it were wider-skinned. Put it like that. Honestly, what I feel--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor, do you think the leaders of the police union or a lot of the rank and file of the NYPD at the time saw you as a race traitor, as Charles puts it?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: It's so personal and it's so complex. I think Charles is pointing out the way our society has created tribalism. It's something I think is very, very present. I think there were a lot of things going on there, but the painful part to me was there was nothing that I said, just like there was nothing that Joe Biden said that was anything but respectful for what police do that we need, and the vast majority of cops to do their jobs well. By the way, in this city, about half of our police officers are people of color who have had their own experiences growing up and bring that sensitivity in the vast majority of cases.

I don't think it's just one thing, Brian, but I do think it represented to me on the one hand, just vast misunderstanding that looks all the time. I thought it was a very human honest reality that parents have to do this. It's not accusatory to anyone to say, we have to do this. It's just reality. It's about what we do because we love our children, we need to protect them. It's not saying anything bad about someone else.

Brian Lehrer: It does indicate that there is disparate treatment. I remember covering it at the time and thinking, "Yes, gee, that's something that's a given. That's what parents of Black children have to say to their kids considering the real history of police brutality and who the victims of it are in this country." Yet the police union in New York took it as, "How dare you say you had that a talk. How dare you imply that there's any racism on the part of police departments?" In a way, it was an accusation but a founded one.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: It was 100% founded. I'm trying to say it this way. If it exists for millions and millions of people and has for generations, what are we going to say? Doesn't exist and it doesn't mean something. No, I think this is what's so powerful about the whole conversation. It's like we breathe oxygen, we drink water, same way. It's like parents have to protect their children, and it is different. When I was growing up as a white child in a very comfortable situation, never occurred to me that I would have to take special precautions if I was approached by a police officer, and I had to learn as a white person a different reality.

It was painful and eye-opening to think that I didn't understand it before, but I don't feel like acknowledging it and saying, "You don't want anyone to live this way." I would like that response from anyone in law enforcement to be one of compassion, just like Joe Biden showed compassion for law enforcement and compassion for the parents simultaneously. How about the response being, if you have to give that talk to your child, then we have to do something better, and let's get to work on it because this is not a way anyone should have to live.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM, HDNAM, New York, WNJT-FM 88.1, Trenton, WNJP 88.5, Sussex, WNJY 89.3, Netcong, and WNJO 90.3, Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming @wnyc.org. A few more minutes with former Mayor de Blasio and more of your calls on the topic. Craig in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Craig.

Craig: Good morning Mr. Mayor. Good morning, Brian. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and that was in a period when Cleveland had annual race riots. For about three or four years in a row, Cleveland had race riots. A lot of them were precipitated by the assassination of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, and also police brutality. My older brother's always told me, whenever I run across a cop and it's late at night-- We didn't own a car at that point, but just run. Just run as fast as you can, leave the scene.

One night--I had a job at a bakery in a part of town that was not too populated, and a police car rolled up on me moving as slow as I was walking, and I just took off. I thought my 15-year-old legs would carry me through the back alleys and whatnot, but they caught me. One of them hit me with his baton on the back of my thigh so terrifically painfully that I literally couldn't walk for the next several hours. They just bullied me. They just thought it was a joke.

It dawned on me as I got older that the talk is often for inner city kids growing up, for Black kids growing up. The talk is related to the riots, because so much of this brothering down your neighborhood and attacking cops was about the vengeance you finally got the ability to extract on cops.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Mayor, you can comment on that, but there certainly doesn't have to be a riot. This is what we see, right? People who are peaceful. Tyre Nichols really wasn't doing anything and he kept telling the police officers, "I am on the ground. You have my arms." Things like that. I don't want to tie it too closely to any acts against police officers because of how systemic this appears, right?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Yes. Brian, first of all, what a painful story. I'm listening to Craig and thinking, when I was 15, first of all, he has a job. He's 15. This is everything we want young people to be doing, and just to immediately be treated like you're guilty. That's what we were experiencing with stop-and-frisk, 10 years ago as well. Just young people of color and yes, male and female, both just being treated like they were guilty just for living. Just for existing.

It's like a path of destruction when a society turns on its own young people. Besides the human pain and the family pain, I always felt like we were just on this collision course with the future because we were poisoning the hopes of our young people by treating them that way. Listen, he's talking about a story from decades ago, and you can hear in his voice, it was like it happened yesterday.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Ida in Point Pleasant. You're on WNYC. Hi, Ida.

Ida: Hi. Yes. First-time caller here. Thank you for having me. I wanted to share what my experience was growing up receiving the talk from my father. Now I'm in my 30s, and I grew up in Northern New Jersey and Jersey City. I remember that when we were getting ready to drive, my father would share about-- the talk was framed as driving etiquette. My father would talk to me and my brother about, "Listen, when you're on the road and you get pulled over by a police officer, make sure you have your hands free, you're in the [unintelligible 00:24:29] on the dashboard." He would talk specifically about being targeted, being racially profiled.

Being really careful that we are "acting right, acting appropriately," and even to the degree that he would share that when he had to drive out of Jersey City, and he knew he was going to be on the New Jersey Turnpike or on the Garden State Parkway, being sure that he was dressed with a shirt and a tie, so people would-- if someone saw him on the road, they would assume that he would be on his way to work, and making sure that we look presentable if we're going to be driving on the highway.

A lot of the talk was really-- even though he had the talk with me, both my brother and my father were Puerto Rican, but they're darker skin. He would talk with my brother about his experience being targeted and also, sharing with us like, "Hey, we have to be careful. We have to be careful when we're out of our community, when we're out of the city." Interesting, I think another caller had shared, the talk isn't a one-time thing. It would be something that we would talk about, "Hey, just when you're driving," and then it would happen again.

We would have these conversations well into our early 20s, and always from the place of, you have to protect yourself. You don't want to cause any problems. You want this interaction to be done as quickly as possible. Always from this place of being really careful that we're not in a position of power and that we have something really great to lose. That's what I wanted to share.

Brian Lehrer: How does that make you feel that you have to be more careful, and your kids have to be more careful than white people? That it's a different standard of behavior that keeps you safe.

Ida: It makes me feel angry. That's the first emotion that comes up. It makes me feel very angry that this is something that-- I don't want to assume that others can take this for granted because perhaps there are others that don't. I remember going away to college and being in the car with white friends that are driving and they don't-- and thinking to myself, "Oh, they shouldn't do that." Or, "Oh, you should have your seat belt on."

Always thinking that I had to do this extra work in my mind. I have to do this extra work in my mind that other people don't have to do to the degree that I have to. I totally want to be aware of my own privilege that I'm Puerto Rican, I'm Latina, but I am also light-skinned, so I understand that there is definitely a privilege that comes with that, but absolutely, just this kind of frustration that comes from this awareness that it comes to my mind sooner for me, and definitely, a lot sooner for my Afro-Latina friends and loved ones, and also for Black folks, too. For myself-

Brian Lehrer: Ida, thank you.

Ida: -yes, thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much. Mr. Mayor, to finish up on some politics of the moment around this, how do you think Mayor Adams is doing in this regard? I didn't see a reference to him reinforcing Biden's remark about the talk or accountability of the police generally. He's been better known this year for admonishing New Yorkers who do record videos of police encounters. He was on MSNBC after the State of the Union. He actually invoked the word woke in a way that Republicans use it to smear progressives concerned about inclusion. How do you think Mayor Adams is doing in this regard?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: First I have to just second on what Ida said because it was so powerful, and thank you for asking the question you asked Brian. Does it feel like double standard, I think is like the nice version of it. It feels like being treated like you don't belong in your own country, or your own city. That is something that-- I think there's a lot of people who happen to be white in this city, in this country who are hearing that and don't want anyone to have to feel that and don't want people to have to live that way, and don't believe that is a whole intact society. I am one of them.

It is unbelievable that a good human being-- you could hear in Ida's voice or honesty, how on earth was she meant to have to live that way? It's wrong on every level and it has to change. That's why I think what the president did was very important. As for Mayor-

Brian Lehrer: Since we're running at a time, let me get your quick take on Mayor Adams. I'm going to ask you one City Council question, too. Go ahead.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Look, I think it is the most important thing to recognize, and I can say this from experience, is he has really still just begun his work. I've always appreciated his history as someone who worked for reform from within the police under very difficult circumstances. I think the people of city always need to hear where we're going. I think he has to keep articulating that vision of how we take the next steps, and I'm sure that's his intention, because there's a lot of pain out there. I do think the thing we all need to keep working on is that public safety and fairness have to walk hand in hand. I really believe that's the thing we're still not close enough to, but they have to, it's the only way. I think that's where all of us have more work to do.

Brian Lehrer: There's also now a split in City Council's Progressive Caucus. I don't know if you've seen this one yet. 7 of the 35 members just quit the caucus over the caucus's new bylaws, which call for, "reducing the size and scope of the NYPD" and having other parts of city government do some of the things that cops do now. If you were still in City Council, which group do you think you'd be in? Then we're out of time in 30 seconds.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Look, I think there's something to me, understandably confusing to some council members about that language. I absolutely believe there are some things that could be done by civilians better than police dealing with mental health crises in many cases. That's what we started to do, we need to do more. I also think the public needs to know they're going to be safe. There is the right way to invest in police and the right way to invest in community services, and it's not like an either-or. I think language that that is that reductionist, I can understand why some members are uncomfortable with it, honestly.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor de Blasio, good to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on. Be well.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Thank you for talking about this topic, Brian. It's really, really important. Thank you.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.