Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Now, we continue our every Wednesday during Black History Month series on Afro-Latino history. Usually, when we talk about Black history here in the United States, we're thinking about African-Americans, people who descended from Africans brought on ships that docked in this country, but according to our guest today, only 5% of enslaved Africans actually landed in the United States. The other 95% ended up in the Caribbean and Latin America.

To honor the diversity of the Black experience, we're delving into the less-discussed history of Afro-Latinos every Wednesday this month. Maybe part of the reason Afro-Latino history is less discussed is that up until recently, the group wasn't really acknowledged, either in Latin America or in the United States, by name all that much. According to a 2022 Pew Research Study, about 6 million adults in the United States identify as Afro-Latino, yet before 2016 neither Pew nor any other research center published reports of a nationally encompassing survey offering American Latinos the option to identify as Afro-Latino.

Similarly, Mexico only began offering the option to identify as Black in their 2015 mid-decade survey. With so many people of African descent in Latin America, it's a wonder why the image of Latinos is vastly represented by white or Indigenous faces, and why we've only recently begun to acknowledge Afro-Latino identity. It also begs the question how did Afro-Latinos identify before Afro-Latinos were considered a thing. Afro-Latino listeners, let's continue the conversation we started last Wednesday. Do you use the term Afro-Latino to describe yourself?

When did you realize you were Afro-Latino? 212-433-WNYC. Another part of that, did you always know that you're Black? How did you identify before the term Afro-Latino was popularized? Did it change for you over the course of your lifetime? What do you even put on the census or, in other instances, when you're asked to self-identify? What makes you Black and what makes you Latino? Do you feel different from Black people in Africa or people who just identify as African-Americans? Respond to any of these questions by calling in at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

With us now to help unpack the origins of Afro-Latino identity, we're very happy to have Dr. Michele Reid-Vazquez, Associate Professor of Africana Studies and Director of the Afrolatinidad Studies Initiative and the Center for Ethnic Studies Research at the University of Pittsburgh. Dr. Reid-Vazquez, welcome back to WNYC. I know you were on The Takeaway a couple of years ago. Thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Thank you so much for having me.

Brian: What does it mean to be Afro-Latino, Latina, Latinx with a mix over the centuries of Spanish people, descendants of them, descendants of enslaved Africans plus the Indigenous? Who even counts?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: That's a great question. The simplest answer is anyone of African descent with heritage in Latin America and the Spanish-speaking islands of the Caribbean. Are you asking also about the term itself, Afro-Latino?

Brian: Yes. Would you like to talk about that?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Sure, sure. The term Afro-Latino, it's an American term. As I always often tell my students, there are no Afro-Latinos in Latin America. They are Afro-Latin Americans, they are Brazilian, Colombian, Venezuelan, et cetera. It's the US that's created the term Latino, and then of course, Latinx, Latine, Latina, Latino. All those terms with the exception of Latino and Latina, the X and E are very, very, very recent, probably in the last decade.

The X tried to create some gender neutrality with the term Latino, but it's also meant to represent intersectionality, to push back against ethno-racial norms. I personally embrace whatever the terms are that people see themselves resonating in. That's what I think people should be using. I know there's been a lot of pushback.

Brian: Did you notice that it came up in the Republican response to the State of the Union address last night? Governor of Arkansas Sarah Huckabee Sanders called it a derogatory word.

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: I did not see that, but I'm not surprised to hear that. It's a term that certainly pushes back against the way we deploy Latino, but the X, it is really meant to be inclusive. That is what its purpose is, to include groups that had not seen themselves in the Afro-Latino, Afro-Latina category and to make themselves clean and render themselves visible. It's unfortunate, but again, there's a lot of commentary and people in my own family are like that. What's with this X? How do you say it? Does it make any sense? It's really about how it's being deployed, how you want to use it.

You don't have to use it at all. That's what I say to people. There's lots of different ways to name yourself and your group. You don't have to use all of them. Just look at the different categories for African-American over the last century. Over the 20th century, there are lots of different ways that we have named and renamed ourselves. Afro-Latinos, we can also name and rename ourselves, too.

Brian: If the term Afro-Latino originated in the United States and not in Latin America, when was that, and why, and by whom?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: The term Afro-Latino itself originated in the US around the 1990s. That's when we really start to see it being used and put in place by scholars. There have been Afro-Latino, Afro-Latinx in the US for centuries. That's the part where we see that there's a disconnect. There have been people of African descent and Latin American descent in the US since the Spanish settled North America in California and the Southwest. Certainly, for the East Coast side, by the end of the 19th century, lots of Afro-Cubans, Afro-Puerto Ricans were coming to New York and Florida.

These populations have been here and it's transnational migration for centuries, but it's really only now that we're starting to name and see, and their visibility has gotten stronger, and certainly since the beginning of the 21st century.

Brian: What's the purpose of identifying that way? What do you think it does for the individual, or understanding of history, or anything else?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: I think it's a way to see yourself. If there's no way to name who you are, especially if you're in a place that doesn't see you at all, it becomes difficult to make those connections, to see the possibilities for your future. I think that's why it's important for people to be able to name. Again, Afro-Latin American families who have been here for generations and form communities, to be able to name their blackness in the context of being of Latin American descent, I think is important. In this country in particular, we flattened out Black to disregard ethnic identification, ethnic, and cultural markers.

I think that's very problematic. Blackness has a range, blackness is complex, and there are different kinds of blackness all over the world and many of those are represented here in the US. I think people do get to name themselves. They do get to be Black that's not necessarily African-American, especially coming from Latin America when, as you mentioned, 95% of enslaved Africans went there. There is a blackness, multiple forms of blackness that are there, that people bring with them when they come to the US, that I think just contributes to the richness of diasporic blackness.

Brian: Our caller board is all full. Let's hear how this plays out for some individuals who are calling in. Emily in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for calling.

Emily: Hello, Brian. Thank you for having me. I just want to express that the term, it is fairly new for us and it does give us representation as an Afro-Latina. When I first came to this country, because I wasn't natively born here, but I learned that I was Black. Before then, I would just identify as Dominican, but as soon as I interacted with my peers in school in America, they identify me as Black. I had to take a journey with that throughout my life until to this day because Latin America is made up of so many ethnicities. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the matter.

Brian: Emily, thank you so much. Please call us again. Marty in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Marty.

Marty: Hi, Brian. Big fan. I just wanted to share similar to what Emily was saying, that growing up in New York City as a Nuyorican, that was not a term that was available to me. I feel like I did struggle a lot with identity, but I also felt that so much of it was because-- I felt like the Latino community didn't want to claim their dark-skinned Latinos. When that term finally came up, I finally felt included and seen.

Brian: Marty, thank you very much. Jahada in North Bergen, New Jersey. You're on WNYC. Hello, Jahada.

Jahada: Hi, how are you?

Brian: I'm okay.

Jahada: Thank you for having me.

Brian: Thank you.

Jahada: I was briefly talking to the person who picked up about being Afro-Latina. I was born in 1977, so I was the darkest one in the family. I remember growing up and what was pointed out was my Black features. Everything that was pointed out was enlaced with racism, but it was covered with terms of endearment. All that was pointed out was that I had the big lips, bemba, which is an African term that I had a big nose, narizona, that my forehead was big, my hair was nappy.

It happened to be that I had Puerto Rican parents. My dad had the more African features and heritage and my mom was a light-skinned Puerto Rican. It was just kind of I turned out to be the darker. Growing up, now I feel like Afro-Latina includes me. However, growing up the terms that were used, like moyeto. Everything was derogatory, but sprinkled with terms of endearment which settled in your head.

Brian: Complicated, right?

Jahada: Yes. Now, I married my husband from North Carolina, he's Black and I'm raising three amazing Black Latinos sons. I have to celebrate their blackness because I know culturally it was laced with racism constantly and about don't marry Black because you'll ruin the race. I heard that growing up so many times. It's very, very sad.

Brian: Jahada, thank you very much for your call. We really appreciate it. Dr. Reid-Vazquez, what a story about racism mixed with terms of endearment, even in our own nuclear family.

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Absolutely. I'll just say I'm married, my husband's Puerto Rican and he told me similar kinds of stories growing up in Puerto Rico about the derogatory terms laced with the etos, negritos, and all these other kinds of pieces. Certainly, in the work that I do, I see it. I do a lot of work in Cuba and I hear it all the time and I'm constantly pushing back because I'm like that's not-- there are other terms we can use and this is not endearing, so please don't use that. These are very common stories. Very, very common stories especially within Latino communities and dealing with the blackness.

Brian: We have so many callers. Let's hear some more stories. Aniana in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hello, Aniana.

Aniana: Hi, Brian. I love your show.

Brian: Thank you.

Aniana: My experience is a little different. I am from the Dominican Republic and my parents were super strong in teaching us who we were and identifying ourselves as Black. There were community organizers and people that were educating the community about blackness. When I came to this country, I identify Dominican so I always say, "Oh, I'm Afro-Dominican." Then after years past, I say, "Oh, I'm Afro-Caribbean." Now, since the word Afro-Latina is big, so I used Afro-Latina. Back in the day, in the '90s when I was in my '20s or in my teens, there was not a real word to identify it.

It was very hard also to build community and to integrate to other Black folks. Because they didn't see Latinos as Afro-Caribbean or Afro descendant or Africans or Black. I always have to fight back and say, "No, I'm Black." People would always say, "No, you're not Black, you're Latina, you're not Black." I always have to fight my blackness and I think [unintelligible 00:15:14] [crosstalk]

Brian: Do you feel like having that word and common usage now helps you literally build community in your own life?

Aniana: It's like a common language now, like it's more known. I'm also was a community organizer for a long time. People that knew, knew, lke people that have the education and knew their identity, yes, you can find community that way, but it's not as big now. It's more common sense to hear those words. It's easier communication, I guess.

Brian: Aniana, thank you so much. Please call us again. Louis in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Louis.

Louis: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I was born in Mexico City and I had a darker skin complexion than other kids. I was usually always the outcast because of the color of my skin. My grandmother was a straight-up mulatto. I don't know if that's how you say it in English, but she has very dark skin. The Afro and I kind of identify with her in that sense. It wasn't until I came to the United States that I saw people that were even darker than my grandmother that I said, "Oh, well, so this is not like a one-off."

Because I never really thought that I was-- in Mexico City, they would say that people in the South of Mexico were darker-skinned and people in the North were lighter skinned. I was in the middle, where I didn't really know where to belong. It wasn't until I came to the United States and I heard a term Afro-Latino that I could identify with that term. When I said I was Mexican, they were like, "No, you're not Mexican, you don't even look Mexican." Whenever I say I'm Afro-Latino, I feel like that clicked also with people and it gave me a sense of belonging.

Brian: Do you feel like if you're still in touch with people in Mexico City, it's catching on there or that it would be useful for some people who look more like you if it did catch on there?

Louis: I feel that now with the rise of internet and the world is becoming a lot smaller. Mexico City is very diverse now, that you have Asian people, people from the Middle-East. I feel like that division and that singling people out, I feel like that's not the case anymore. I feel like people are being more aware of the world. I don't know if that's how we put it. My grandmother's side of the family now, they talk about this experience where now they feel proud of. Because now, I feel like when people get more educated about why things are the way they are, it makes them more understanding and less criticizing.

Brian: Louis, thank you so much. Please call us again. One more. Raphael in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Raphael.

Raphael: Good morning. How are you? I use the term Afro-Latino Caribbean. I recognize that in my cultural makeup, there are three very distinct vectors that define and makes who I am. Geography, ie the Caribbean, background of bringing African, and linguistic which is obviously the Latin, Latino, Spanish, Spain. Even though I was born in the Dominican Republic. It was extremely important for me to identify that way in the place, ie this place, that did not give historical value to having come from where I come from because we were too small.

You see, we didn't make any significant in the historical life of this country. These terms only appear in this country. They don't appear anywhere else. Nobody use them outside the United States. Nobody uses silos to the extent that we use them over here.

Brian: Silos?

Raphael: Yes, ethnic silos. I found that, to me, it's been very informative because it has widened my scope, it has allowed me to identify myself with other Spanish speaking nations that have their own regional. Both cultural language and traditions that define them in terms of where they come from as opposed to their historical ethnic background. If you are Dominican, you are not Spañol from Spain, you are from the Dominican Republic with all that entail.

Over here, I don't know because of why some days somebody will, those nuances are not either important or paid attention to maybe because of "efficiency," but we are not the same. There are 21 Spanish-speaking different nations, and each one of them has its own regional markup that make them who they are. Not just the flag, but everything else that comes along with it. Someday we will be able to recognize those differences and make them whole so that you don't feel less than because you are, let's say, from any other country that is not here.

Brian: Raphael, great call. Thank you so much. Please call us again. Wow. Dr. Reid-Vazquez. What a set of callers. What do you want to pick out to react to?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Oh, wow. I mean they were just amazing. I think especially the last one in terms of recognizing the different 21 countries, the different ethnicities that we collapse into one category of Latino in the US. I've always unpacking that if someone says, because again we'll use the term upper Latino and I'm always asking, and from it is only Dominican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Venezuelan. I'm always interested in unpacking these broad categories to get the specificity because of those cultural distinctions are important.

They're critical. There are a lot of connections certainly, but there are so many distinctions that we want be able to see those and to celebrate those.

Brian: Are there certain Latin American countries that have the biggest Afro-Latino populations?

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Absolutely. Brazil is probably by far the largest. I think it's at least around 50%, 56% or so. That's roughly 120, 130 million people. Other large populations, Dominican Republic Colombia, Cuba, Venezuela, those all have anywhere from 10% to 50% as well. It's no surprise, seeing these Afro-Latinos emerging, like those being the dominant categories in this country, given the history of migration from those regions.

Brian: That's our Black history every Wednesday on Afro-Latino history for this month segment for this week. We'll do another one next Wednesday and I think is going to be really fun. It's going to be on Afro-Latino icons and we're going to invite you to call up and name because there aren't as many famous Afro-Latinos who can come to mind for as many people as, let's say, just African-American icons or white icons for that matter, maybe even Asian icons.

We're going to invite you and we'll have a guest, but we'll also invite you to call up and give shout-outs to your Afro-Latino icons next Wednesday at this time. For today, we thank Dr. Michele Reid-Vazquez, Associate Professor of Africana Studies and Director of the Afrolatinidad Studies Initiative and the Center for Ethnic Studies Research at the University of Pittsburgh. Thank you so much.

Dr. Reid-Vazquez: Thank you.

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