Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Again, a weather alert with the heavy rains we've been having in the New York area this morning. There is a rare situation on the New York City Subways with only extremely limited subway service available in general according to New York City Transit. They posted on Twitter, "There is only extremely limited subway service available because of heavy flooding caused by rainfall." It says, "Service may be suspended on certain stations." Never mind the proper English would say at certain stations. It says, "Check the New York City Transit website for an update of particular conditions near you."

We also got news that the Harlem Line and the New Haven Line of Metro North both temporarily suspended. From the wording of that, the way I'm seeing it, it looks like the entire Harlem Line and New Haven Line have been suspended for the moment. No word on the Hudson Line. I'm told now that alternate side of the street parking is now suspended, as if anyone would have been trying to move their cars to avoid a ticket for alternate side right now, but we did have that listener earlier who called in to say, "Hey, alternate side of the street is still in effect." Well, now it's not, just so you know.

Again, Mayor Adams and Governor Hochul will be having a briefing that's scheduled for 11 o'clock on the weather situation. Obviously, no day to be on the roads at all if you can possibly avoid it. We know that there may be flooding having nothing to do with transportation in many of your areas that may be affecting your homes and businesses. We'll be reporting on that as well on this incredibly heavy rain day in the New York area.

Meanwhile, we'll talk now about Target's announcement that it will close nine stores, including the one here in New York at the East River and East 116th Street in Manhattan. The company cited shoplifting as the main reason. It does plan to open another store elsewhere in Harlem on 125th Street. With me now are Jordyn Holman, New York Times business reporter covering the retail industry and consumerism, and Nick Garber, Crain's New York Business politics reporter. Jordan and Nick, thanks for coming on today. Welcome to WNYC.

Nick Garber: Hi, Brian.

Jordyn Holman: Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Jordan, what's the extent, nationally, of the Target closures would you remind us, and why is the East Harlem store included?

Jordyn Holman: Earlier this week, Target had said it would be closing nine stores in total, citing theft being the reason for why they're closing the stores. The East Harlem location is actually the only one on the East Coast. The other locations are in San Francisco, Seattle, and Portland, which we've heard a lot of headlines around them dealing with rising retail theft.

The East Harlem location fits into the picture because Target says that that store, in particular, has been experiencing a high level of theft, as they cited organized retail crime, which is a bit different than shoplifting. They said this is not a sustainable store that they can continue to keep open.

Brian Lehrer: Jordyn, I've got to ask you the skeptical question that maybe is only coming up in my circles because I travel with journalists, and you know how we are. Does everyone you report on believe Target about the reasons for these closures? Are they trying to blame shoplifting for what's really business failures, or any accusation or skepticism coming from any meaningful quarters on that?

Jordyn Holman: Brian, you and your friends are not the only ones voicing that skepticism. When I wrote this story, the comment section was full of people being skeptical about it. I think it's really hard to pinpoint if this is really happening or not because companies, including Target, don't publicly report every time a theft takes place in a store. Then, when you start hearing about the theft in this big way, saying, "Oh, it's so bad that we have to close the store," I understand people's skepticism, especially if they haven't seen it themselves, haven't seen the shoplifting. Despite a large company like Target saying that this is an issue and it's really hurting their profits, I have heard from so many customers feeling like that can't be the case, or something else could have been done to keep the store open.

Brian Lehrer: You don't have any evidence, it sounds like, as a reporter.

Jordyn Holman: We have the company saying it, and also I have been in stores where I have seen shoplifting. I think that evidence that is still murky is about like what percentage of theft is really taking place within the stores. As a whole Target said that in the first five months of this year across their store fleet, theft has gone up 120%, but once again, we don't have a comparison to years past, like what's the baseline.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story. Are you in East Harlem or otherwise a shopper at that Target location that will close in October? What did that store mean to you in the context of itself, or of shopping options in the neighborhood or people who use that store or anyone in the retail business anywhere, help us report the shoplifting part of the story. Is it bad in your experience? Is it worse than, let's say, before the pandemic, even this long into a post-pandemic back to shopping in-person environment? Do you blame progressive prosecutors, as some people do, or is there anything else you want to say or ask relevant to this at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for our reporters, Jordyn Holman from the Times and Nick Garber from Crain's New York Business.

Nick, your article in Crain's has a headline that centers long-time shoppers in the neighborhood being sad about the closure. Who did you talk to?

Nick Garber: Thanks, Brian. I spoke to the chair of the neighborhood community board, Community Board 11. I also spoke to a woman who runs a neighborhood nonprofit in East Harlem, more focused on 125th Street, but still they are out and about in the neighborhood. Yes, I think it's seen as a big loss. This Target opened around 13 years ago and it had a lot of fanfare around it, along with the shopping complex that it's a part of. It was seen as this big investment in what's historically been a pretty underserved neighborhood.

What's interesting about it to me is that Target had really gone out of its way to schmooze and woo these neighborhood leaders. There was a story in The Times at the time in 2010 saying that Target had put in a decade of work to try to persuade folks in Harlem to support their opening, so it does certainly seem like a giving up on the neighborhood that I'm sure is letting people down. Although, as you touched on, there is this interesting component, which is that Target is opening a new store about a mile away on 125th Street in a much more central location, so it's complicated.

Brian Lehrer: Sharon in East Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sharon. Thanks for calling in.

Sharon: Hi. Oh, this topic is so hot. Target has been fun, just as your reporter was explaining that there was a lot of negotiating on specifically to get Target into that space, to begin with, all right. I think what's happening is there's a lot of activity on 125th Street. I noticed in that domain, I know Columbia is expanding in that area, but the Target still that is [unintelligible 00:08:12] it's accessible to the community. It's located essentially so people can get there walking and driving. I don't understand that because there's other stores that are there. Burlington is there, Costco is there, so I think they're lying.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think they really want to go then?

Sharon: Because they got a better deal someplace else.

Brian Lehrer: Although they can open other stores without closing existing stores.

Sharon: I said the same thing, exactly the same. In fact, I'm trying to find out who to talk to because I know when that store opened up in that area, it's such a big deal that they had Target in that area, and because of the central location. The store's massive. It's like a warehouse. You can really buy what you need there, and the prices are pretty good and when they have the sales, it always works. My neighbors and I are very upset about that, and we're going to talk to each other [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask for one thing about what they have at that Target because there's a Target near me in Marble Hill? It's probably got the best produce, which is not the first thing you think of with respect to a Target of any of the stores that sell fresh fruit and vegetables that are really near me, better than a couple of closest supermarkets let's say. That's my opinion anyway. Did Target play that role in East Harlem with respect to produce?

Sharon: Yes, because there's a whole grocery section on there. Also, there were a lot of ethnic products that you couldn't find in other stores because that's where I usually go to get my fresh herbs for my spices and everything. It was very community-orientated. It has things that you need. The prices were good. I also like to have organic prices that were affordable, and so them pulling out like that, and just leaving that gaping hole in that area, and I really can't wrap my head around because Costco is sitting right there. Costco was huge. I don't understand what they do, all the other stuff, but we'll find out. Thank you so much, Brian, for letting me talk about that. This is really something that is unacceptable, and the community's going to look at it. I have reached out to our community board and find out what the heck's going on.

Brian Lehrer: Sharon, I appreciate the call. Jennifer in East Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jennifer.

Jennifer 1: Yes, hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call again. I share the view that it is a disgrace for the community. I have shopped there regularly. Since I've returned to the community in the past year, I have personally witnessed an enormous amount of theft in the store. They tend to work in groups, and it's very obvious. As horrifying as this is, it is not surprising that the store is closing. It will be an abyss for the community because I do think they offer things price-wise and otherwise that are simply not presently available in the community.

I did respond to an email that was sent out by our Assemblyman Edward Gibbs, and spoke to someone in his office yesterday about this. Obviously, they share our collective great distress that this has happened. But no, I do not think that they are making this up as an excuse to close the store for poor profits. I have personally witnessed enormous theft in the store. I just think it's a terrible blight for the community.

Brian Lehrer: Who do you blame, Jennifer, if anyone?

Jennifer 1: Well, I do think this is a community in great need. I do still think the community is a desert when it comes to affordability regarding quality produce, and such as to what you were talking about. In fact, I've alluded to the fact that we direly need, for example, a food co-op system in the city, starting in East Harlem, because of the dearth of resources or products that would benefit the community, but I'm not surprised that this has happened. I do think it reflects the desperation in the community, but there is no excuse to resort to theft at the scale. As I say, I have witnessed it on numerous occasions in the store.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer, thank you very much. Let me do one more call in this set before we go back to our guests to close it out. Jennifer in Brownsville, Brooklyn, has something relevant to say. Jennifer, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Jennifer 2: Thank you for having me, Brian. I'll be quick. I think it would be disingenuous to say that one hasn't seen a huge change in terms of shoplifting in stores post-COVID. The fact that if you go to CVS, Duane Reade, any of those stores, everything is locked up, you have to call somebody to get those things, sometimes they don't show up. That, of course, is going to affect the bottom line, period. I think Democrats, liberals, progressive politicians have a big problem. I'm as liberal as they come, and it pains me to see this wide-scale theft. Thinking about Philadelphia last week, for example, or what happens in most of our stores.

I was in a CVS Downtown, and literally, the people working there were like, "Just take what you want and leave." They were literally telling the person to just steal and go because they were tired of dealing with the situation. The only winner in this is going to be Jeff Bezos, frankly. That is the only person that's going to win if we continue this system was just retail stores closing at a mass scale because this is just going to enrich Amazon.

Brian Lehrer: Buying from Amazon for delivery.

Jennifer 2: Of course.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer, do you blame progressive prosecutors, which is what we're hearing on the political Right?

Jennifer 2: Yes, of course. You can not have consequences in any kind of functional society. Again, I was Berkeley grad, super liberal, like I voted Democratic down the line, but come on, let's use our common sense. If you have no bail laws, if you know that if you steal, you're going to go home that day, what is the incentive to not steal if you are--

Frankly, I think there's an argument to make for people that are stealing goods and are in need. I can roll there, but a lot of the stuff that's been stolen is not food. It's stuff of few weeks old.

Brian Lehrer: They say it's organized crime rings. Paying people to go in there and do that crash and grab or whatever it's called. Jennifer, thank you very much. Well, Jordyn Holman from The Times, do you want to reflect on anything from any of those three callers? There's a lot there.

Jordyn Holman: There is a lot there. That last part about this shopping experience having changed, with everything being locked up behind glass, I agree with the last caller, that's going to affect how people feel about the store. It's also going to affect how much you're going to purchase from the store. It makes a worker's job harder having to constantly unlock things.

I think one thing that came out of what Target was arguing for why they closed the store is about their workers and how their lives has changed. This is a bit different than the last point that was made. I know that that is always a part of retail; retailers to know that there is going to be some level of theft, but what they're arguing nowadays, is that this theft is coming with a level of violence and aggression towards workers and sometimes customers that they haven't seen before.

I think it's really important to go back to the data. Overall, shrink, which is an industry term for theft, has stayed pretty consistent as an average, but more retail execs are saying they're concerned about the violence and aggression that comes with it. I think that's an important thing to note.

Brian Lehrer: Nick, I'll give you a last word, Nick Garber from Crain's. I apologize to both of you and to our listeners, we're cutting the segment short from what we originally planned because we need to go to the news, and then the news conference that we're expecting from Mayor Adams and Governor Hochul, about the impact of today's weather. Nick, they are opening another store in Harlem on 125th Street, Target, right?

Nick Garber: That's right. It's supposed to open in the next few months. I think part of what's given some ammunition to the folks who don't believe Target's explanation for closing the East Harlem location is, it is true that this new one seems like it'll be more desirable in a lot of ways, closer to transit in a brand-new flashy building next to a Trader Joe's. I think it's understandable that some people are under the impression that Target might have other reasons for wanting to focus its energy on this newer location as opposed to the old one.

Brian Lehrer: That'll be a smaller Target store, which means I'm not sure for example if they will sell produce, you tell me. Do they think that store on 125th is going to be-- I think it's 125th and Malcolm X, is that where it's going to be-- is going to be safer from theft than the one on 116th Street and the river?

Nick Garber: I don't know. Target didn't answer my questions when I asked them to explain why they're closing the East Harlem location, but certainly, it'll be more centrally located. Yes, as you said, it will be one of the smaller format stores as opposed to these sprawling big box-style ones.

Brian Lehrer: Nick Garber, Crain's New York Business politics reporter, Jordyn Holman, New York Times business reporter covering the retail industry and consumerism, thank you both very much.

Nick Garber: Thanks, Brian.

Jordyn Holman: Thank you.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.