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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. New York City Schools Chancellor David Banks is our first guest today with a new school year just a few days old, and there are so many things we can talk about, students leaving the system, asylum seeker students entering the system. Can we freak out about too few students and too many students at the same time? Sure we can.

Reducing class size under a new state law is on the docket and is supposed to begin getting phased in this year. Helping students make up for falling behind during the pandemic school closures is on the docket. The transition from whole language to phonics in teaching reading is happening. Did you hear the Columbia University Teachers College is even disbanding the program that gave us the system now deemed a failure? Integration or lack thereof is an issue. Mayor Adams across the board budget cuts to pay for migrant services is an issue and a school bus strike may be. We have lots to talk about. Chancellor Banks, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Chancellor David Banks: Thanks so much, Brian. Pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have the chancellor generously with us till the bottom of the hour, full half hour here, and we can take some phone calls for him. Parents of current New York City public school students, you will get first priority on the phones. I'll say it again, parents of current New York City public school students, you will get first priority on the phones. Call with your questions, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also text the question to the same number, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Chancellor, I just threw a lot of things at the listeners that we might talk about in the intro, but let me not obscure whatever you think the big picture is going into the school year. Is there a way you describe job one right now?

Chancellor David Banks: Yes. Job one is reading, Brian. 51% of the kids in New York City public schools do not read on grade level. That is not purely a New York problem, that is a national problem. 80% of the kids in the City of Chicago do not read on grade level and a whopping 91% don't read on grade level in the city of Detroit. For the last 20 to 25 years, we changed our approach to how we teach reading. We went away, I think, for more tried and true methods that involved phonics and we went to something called balanced literacy. I think that it has not worked for large, large numbers of kids. I think the results are in and we're shifting on that.

NYC Reads is our number one priority. We have to ensure, Brian, that every child can read on grade level no later than the third grade. That sets them up for success. All the other things, and math and science and everything else, it's very difficult to have a bright and bold future if you don't know how to read. We're going to ensure that every child can read.

Brian Lehrer: Is the elementary school teaching core almost universally on board with this?

Chancellor David Banks: Yes, they are. First of all, the United Federation of Teachers led by Michael Mulgrew have been solid partners with us on this. They've been actually pushing for this themselves for a while. We can't say leave it up to the individual schools, they know what's best for their kids, not in a system this large. That would be fine if they were getting the results. They've not been getting the results and so teachers across the city are with us on this because teachers want to be successful as well. I don't blame the teachers for these results. I certainly don't blame the kids or their families. We gave them a flawed playbook, Brian. We're changing that playbook. We're throwing that play out, we're coming in with a different play and we believe very deeply that this is a winning play.

In fact, in the State of Mississippi, Mississippi is what they call a Mississippi miracle. State of Mississippi went from almost last to first in the nation in terms of the gains that they've made in reading by purely leaning in on the science of reading, which is what we're doing now. That involves having phonics, phonemic awareness, a vocabulary development, a fluency, and ultimately comprehension is what we're trying to do here. That's what they did. Tennessee, same kinds of tremendous results and that's what we're going to do here in the city.

Essentially what we've done is we've taken three different curricula that we have vetted and we've said to every school district across the city, "You have to select as a district one of these three." We had dozens that were around before. We're throwing all of that out and we're saying, "One of these three would be fine." The district superintendent will engage with their principals, their families and make the best choice for their district, but any one of those three will work. All of our early childhood programs are using one curriculum across the city to ensure literacy levels at the earliest ages.

Brian Lehrer: Another play for quality education that comes from the state legislature's playbook is the new state law that requires reducing class size. It's beginning to get phased in this school year, as I understand it. Maybe you can explain to the listeners to what degree, right away. A Daily News article last week or editorial really called it, "Of dubious academic value compared to many other interventions." Where do you come down?

Chancellor David Banks: Listen, as chancellor, who wouldn't want smaller class sizes? We always want to have smaller class sizes. Here's the reality for us, Brian. Across the city, we already have smaller class sizes. You know why? Because we lost 120,000 kids who left the system over the five years prior to this administration. In fact, the two years prior to Mayor Adams coming into office, 70,000 of that 120 left the New York City public schools. Just simply by virtue of so many folks leaving, we reduced class size significantly.

Here's the challenge. There are certain neighborhoods in the city that do have a class size issue. What we wanted to do was to really target those neighborhoods and try to specifically focus on reducing class size in those neighborhoods. The challenge that the law has presented to us is that it says every single district in the city has to meet these class size mandates. The problem with that is that if you have a class size of, let's say 21 kids in the first grade, nobody would say that that's a large class size, but based upon the new law, it can be no more than 20. If you have 21, that means you have to hire another teacher. If the principal wanted to hire a science teacher or an art teacher or a music teacher, that discretion is removed from them and they have to hire the additional classroom teacher because of the mandate of the law.

We estimate that this is going to be thousands more teachers that we have to hire and what the state did not do was issue any funding for capital expenses. That's going to be in the tens of millions of dollars to build new facilities, which is what we're going to have to do. If we're not going to cap size enrollment at some of our high-profile schools, then we're going to have to build more space in those places in order to meet the mandate of the law.

Here's the deal, Brian. We got five years to implement it. Each year, we have to do about 20% of the mandate. The first two years, which we're in now, we don't see it as any major problem. We're already meeting those mandates. The problem becomes when we get to years three, four, and five. That's when the rubber will hit the road, that's when it's going to cost us a lot significantly. It's the law. We're going to do everything we can, but if we're able to find the funding to do that, there are going to be challenges and also being able to have funding to do other programs.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that the legislature has created something that will backfire in terms of their actual intent in race and class terms, if I can put it that way? The Daily News editorial says the requirement for smaller class size will result in hiring more educators in wealthier and whiter schools, and fewer in high-poverty schools. The news organization that covers education, Chalkbeat, says something similar because high-poverty schools already have smaller class size because people flock to the schools considered more successful, which tend to be in more affluent neighborhoods, so those are the ones that are overcrowded. Do you analyze it that way in terms of race and class?

Chancellor David Banks: I do. At its core, there are more classes that are over the cap in the better-off communities than less well-off communities. This means that to come into compliance with the legislation, those better-off communities are going to need additional resources. That's funding, that's teachers, more capital investments. They will need more of these resources than the lower-income communities, which have more classes that are in compliance. Hard-to-staff schools in low-income communities will become even harder to staff as we look to hire more teachers in better-off communities. Many of whom will likely come from lower-income communities, creating more turnover there. That's what we see. If we receive new dollars for staff and capital, those dollars are going to flow disproportionately to the better-off communities. If we do not receive additional funds, this is going to mean shifting resources dollars, staff, capital to the wealthy communities away from the lower-income ones. That certainly was not the intention, I think of the legislators. I think it is a consequence that is going to absolutely have to be dealt with and there are others who are reaching out advocates asking the state to take another look at this.

Brian Lehrer: Any indication that legislative leaders now see it that way too and want to tweak it?

Chancellor David Banks: We're very early on in this process. I would not say that it's risen to the level just yet from what I've seen that has gotten the attention of folks to shift at this point but we will see what it looks like over time.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, our guest is the New York City Schools Chancellor David Banks and we're inviting phone calls, especially from public school parents. Your chance to ask the chancellor a question directly. If you can't march down to Department of Education headquarters and take a number and wait in line or however they do it, you can call up right now. Public school parents, first priority on the phone. It's 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Or text that number or tweet @BrianLehrer. Marissa in North Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with the Chancellor. Hello, Marissa.

Marissa: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can.

Marissa: Oh, this is awesome. Hi, my name is Marissa and I am a public school parent. I'm a child and family therapist, and I am also a community education council member in District 14. Hello, Chancellor Banks. I think I've met you a couple of times at some of our CEC check-ins.

Chancellor David Banks: Good to hear your voice.

Marissa: [laughs] You too. I have a very full question for you which obviously comes down to funding, which is what we're talking about here. The mayor ran on a platform of literacy and I know that the DOE is trying to really push literacy and we're expanding programs for students who might be on the dyslexia spectrum. I think myself and many other parents want to know how are we going to deal with improving literacy, reducing class sizes, offering funding to communities that don't have as many resources as some of our more financially stable communities when the mayor continues to keep cutting money from the budget.

I think as a parent, something that really makes me angry is that when I see funding being cut from the public schools and then I hear that the NYPD went over their budget by a billion dollars because of milking the clock, it enrages me. That's one thing. I just want to know how the DOE and the mayor's office plan on doing these things when they continue to cut funding. Then the second underlying thing is, since COVID as a child therapist, myself and everyone else who works in the field has seen so much developmental delays. We're going to start seeing more and more learning and literacy issues. Those all stem from physiological issues.

How are you also going to treat the underlying physiological problems that our kids are going to start having now with sensory disorder, sensory dysregulation, even eye development issues because of screens and COVID? How are you going to fund and support those underlying issues for the students to be able to even have literacy if the funding isn't there?

Brian Lehrer: Marissa, thank you. Enough there for a couple of town hall meetings. Right on their own Chancellor, two big issues on the table.

Chancellor David Banks: [laughs] Absolutely. Listen, the mayor has a very, very tough job. He has a mandate to balance the city's budget. The largest part of the city's budget, a third of the city's budget is the New York City public schools. It is not an easy job that the mayor has and he's got to manage this across multiple agencies, and none of us want to see cuts at all. We've all got tough days ahead of us in terms of trying to figure out where the funding would come from to meet these cuts and these pegs. We're talking about upwards of maybe 15%. Those are massive cuts. We are grappling with that as we speak to figure that out.

I think part of the challenge that the mayor has had, and what he has said over and over again is the billions of dollars that we've been spending as a city on the migrant issue. That was not planned for and yet it is a reality that we have as a city. Every agency in the city is going to feel the effects of the mandate that we have which is to take care of the migrants as they come into the city.

Brian Lehrer: Where will it come out of the education budget? If you can give people a little preview. I know you don't have to give the paperwork in until November, but do you have a sense?

Chancellor David Banks: It's going to probably affect every aspect of what we do. It's not any specific program. I can't imagine any program that's not going to be affected by cuts of this size. We will know the specifics more in the coming weeks but everything is on the table. The challenge for me is how to ensure that we stay focused on the major priorities which are around reading, literacy, and our career pathways work while making sure that if we've got to comply with these cuts, that we're doing the best that we can. To this second part of the question around developmental delays, we see that all across the city. We've got a number of programs.

Our seed programs which have been designed to help to support students who are having those kind of physiological delays. In the New York City public schools, we've got the right programming. We don't have enough of them and that's why even these cuts make it a real challenge because we know what we need to do and now the question is going to be, do we have the funding to do that? We've got to continue to fight for it.

Brian Lehrer: Follow up on that from a listener who tweets, "Proposed city cuts far outweigh actual costs of refugees and fail to take into account any potential savings of migrants now costing $380 per household per day." I'm not sure what that last part means but this accusation that the proposed city cuts far outweigh the actual costs of the migrants. Do you want to push back on the mayor at all and say, "No, come on, 5%? We don't have to cut 5% really."

Chancellor David Banks: Listen, I'm engaged in conversation with the mayor on a daily basis together with Jacques Jiha, head of OMB. I'm fighting and pushing and doing the best that we possibly can while recognizing that we are essential to everything that the city does as well. I think we could go back and forth around what people think the numbers actually represent. We're still very early on in this process. It's not a flat-out 15%. It's five in November, it's five in January, it's five later. That's what's on the table right now. This is when all the political pushingback actually takes place. We will see where we ultimately land but either way, Brian and to the callers, it's going to be significant.

We're running out of stimulus funds, which kept us so much of the work afloat over these last several years. The federal government is seemingly not coming to our aid at this point and so we're going to have to hunker down and recognize that tough times are here and we're going to have to be responsible and how we deal with it.

Brian Lehrer: There's the point that just about all New Yorkers agree on. The federal government is not stepping up as should be its responsibility when we talk about immigration or asylum. One more thing on this before we go to our next call, economically, there was concern last year as you know about the system losing state aid because of the declining enrollment. You mentioned the declining enrollment before. There's a per-student formula, so then there's a loss. Now we have 20,000 of those slots made up by the new asylum seeker kids. Are they a net plus in terms of funding the city schools?

Chancellor David Banks: Yes. It doesn't happen right away as soon as they walk into our doors but over time, we absolutely get funding through the state and the federal government for those students. We lost 120,000 kids. It looks like our numbers are over 20,000 now have come in. That is helpful to us in terms of students coming into the system. It's a challenge for the entire city because of all the associated costs of housing and healthcare, and the like. In terms of the New York City Public School's budget, yes, it does help us when we get more kids who are coming into the system versus leaving. One final thing on that, Brian. We've seen we're starting to turn these numbers around. Our projections for this year in terms of enrollment loss, we had a projection last year that we'd be losing probably 5% or 6%. Our projection this year is about 0.2%. The losses have been slowing down. I think by this time next year, we'll probably be in a place where we're seeing an uptick in the enrollment because the decline has slowed steadily.

Brian Lehrer: Hassani in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Chancellor David Banks. Hi, Hassani.

Hassani: Good morning, Brian. I am a sustaining member and a regular listener. Chancellor Banks, thank you for all that you do for our kids. Thank you for all the advocacy you've done. I am interested in what it is as a parent of public school students, what it is that I can do to help to advocate for more funding from our legislators, from the federal government. How is it that we parents can help you in making sure our kids have what it is they need, especially from the capital side? As you know, many of these schools do not have the facilities, were not built for the numbers that we have today so how can I help?

Brian Lehrer: Sure, you couldn't have designed a better call, right, Chancellor?

Chancellor David Banks: [laughs] Thank you, Hassani. I appreciate that very much. I think that's a question that we should be asking more of. First of all, I would say as a citizen and as a parent, to make sure that you're in contact with all of your elected officials from the federal government all the way through the state and to your local council folks who represent you, to let them know that this is unacceptable and that you won't stand for it and you're going to fight for it. That's what all parents really should be doing.

We need to hear particularly from our federal government. This is what the mayor has been saying. There are a lot of folks who've been very silent. A lot of our elected officials at the federal level who we've not heard much from on this issue. The city is facing a tremendous crisis of resource right now, and no one wants to blame the asylum-seeking families. These are people that are looking for a better way of life.

Nobody's going through jungles and across rivers just because they're looking for a better job. They're looking for a better life. The situations that they found themselves in were untenable, and it is the immigration story of New York City. This is who we are, but we need our federal government to step up. New York should not be shouldering this level of burden. It is too much to ask of this city.

When you're asking that of the city, you're asking that of all of the Hassanis of the world, the parents and our communities who have a big heart, who want to help. That's who we are as New Yorkers, but I mean enough is enough. We need help. The elected officials, you should be convening, gather with your friends, and let them know you're going to hold them accountable. Where do they stand on ensuring that New York is going to get the support that it needs so that we don't have to make cuts in our schools and other city agencies at the level that we have to make them?

Brian Lehrer: Paul in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Chancellor David Banks. Hi, Paul.

Paul: Good morning. It is a pleasure to speak with you, Brian, and with Chancellor Banks. I'm something of a ringer because I know Chancellor Banks over time. I'm the parent of a six-year-old in Fort Greene. She's a first grader, very happy at Public School 46. Shout out to the Lions. My question is this, how can the chancellor and his folks help those that are providing after-school and other support services to deal with the bureaucracy that makes it hard for small businesses and non-profit organizations to do the necessary work to support our children? I'll take my response off the air unless you want to keep me.

Brian Lehrer: Paul, thank you so much. Chancellor?

Chancellor David Banks: Paul, thank you so much. Again, I think when education is done well in our city, it's because of the work that happens at the local level. Every one of our schools has a principal, and every one of our principals has a superintendent who oversees them. I have fully empowered our superintendents to be supportive of all the initiatives that we have in the district. Initiatives look different from one district to the next because of the uniqueness of the individual neighborhoods.

I don't know if you know who your superintendent is, but make sure you meet your superintendent and express these concerns. I have just expressed them over and over to them. In fact, I'm sitting here right now at the Brooklyn Public Library, the big Jay-Z exhibit that has been ongoing here, and every superintendent in New York City is here for a full day of training. I just spoke to them before jumping on this call.

Make sure that you speak to them because I empowered them to be supportive to those kinds of issues, Paul. I don't want all the answers to come from on high at Tweed and the chancellor's office. The best way education works is when it works locally, it's in full touch with the community. community should be fully engaged and involved, and I have empowered our principals and our superintendents to do just that.

Brian Lehrer: A listener texts, "Chancellor, my husband waited in line for two hours yesterday, and we still didn't get a spot in our school's after-program. PS 376 in Brooklyn." It's related to the last caller's question. What would you say to that parent?

Chancellor David Banks: I'm not sure what district that is. That could be a very high-demand district where a lot of folks were trying to get into these various programs. I would have you to certainly reach out directly to your superintendent and find out what space might still be available in any particular or individual schools. It's a little hard for me to answer that specifically without having more information, but again, it's a question that is more for your local superintendent.

Each superintendent in New York City oversees about 30 to 35 schools on average. They've got budget, they've got support personnel. It is their job to be in support of the parents in the community and make sure that the needs of the parents are met. It doesn't mean that you're always going to get the exact program that you're looking for if there are not enough seats, but certainly, that should always be your first stop and if you don't know who your superintendent is, you can figure that out, and certainly you can reach out to our office if you need help in doing that.

Brian Lehrer: I was going to ask you how the kids who were in kindergarten and first grade when the pandemic started are doing now, missing much of their early reading instruction. Maybe last year's fourth-grade standardized tests are an indication of how that cohort is doing. I want to pile on with this text question from a listener. The listener writes, "My daughter is in 10th grade. She has a reading disability that we caught after COVID. Her disability is normally caught in second grade, but due to the Teacher's College methodology," so she agrees with you on changing to phonics, "she fell through the cracks. She's had a private tutor for almost two years for this. What do you say to me? How will you support my child?" Talk about a 10th grader like that, talk about the 4th graders who started during the pandemic.

Chancellor David Banks: When the fourth graders who started during the pandemic, we're going to have a better sense about where we are in terms of some of the catch-up work that we've been doing. The state is getting ready to release very shortly the scores across this entire state. We're anxiously awaiting those results. We feel very positive about the work that we put in to trying to help as many kids as possible catch up, but we will know, Brian, probably in the next couple of weeks where we are with those scores. Fingers crossed, I think we've done some good work in the city. I know we certainly put in the time, effort, and the energy to try to catch up as many of these kids as we possibly can, but we'll know very shortly. The state is about to do that.

Then, on the others, we continue to do the screenings across the city. There are kids who are well beyond even third and fourth grade, and some of the older students as well, where we have been screening kids and a number of them who we find have dyslexic challenges. We put in interventionists to help to support that work as well and to support those kids. It is a challenge for us, the older learners, and that's why we've been trying to get this right at the earliest stages but again, if you're working very closely with your superintendent, your principal at your school, there are a number of programs that have been put in place that vary from district to district. Each district has its own set of initiatives that are meant to support the older reader who perhaps has been struggling.

Brian Lehrer: We just have a minute left. I'll give it to one more listener writing in a question via text. They write, "With all the budget shortfalls we have, why isn't there talk of raising taxes on the ultra-rich to pay for public education?" Do you have a position on that?

Chancellor David Banks: On asking the rich to pay for public education, the ultra-rich?

Brian Lehrer: On raising taxes. This says raising taxes on the ultra-rich.

Chancellor David Banks: Yes, that's probably more of a question for the mayor and some of the other electeds. I don't have a position on that per se. I just want us to make sure that we have the funds that we need for our schools, but I will say this as well, Brian. I've been in the system for many, many years, teacher, an assistant principal, a principal. Our New York City schools have a budget of $37.5 billion, and yet 51% of the kids can't read and haven't been reading for quite some time.

While this is, it remains a funding issue for us, it also remains an issue about vision and implementation of things that work because I can give you $100 billion, and if you don't know what you're doing, or you have the wrong playbook, the amount of money you're bringing in won't matter. I'm trying to put in the right vision and the right plan so that the money that we do have is spent expeditiously and is also spent in a way that is effective. That's what I'm very focused on, particularly during these tough economic times.

Brian Lehrer: I know we're out of time. Anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to make sure to mention before you go? Or have we covered the basics in your flat out of time?

Chancellor David Banks: [laughs] No, we've covered the basics, but I will say this. Parents, this is my final message, would be to parents. Read with your child, read wherever you can find time. Our kids, so many of our kids are caught up with their phones and their technology that they're not reading. A lot of times, they're not even talking to their moms and dads anymore. They're in their own virtual worlds. We've got to insist that our kids speak to us. We've got to insist that when our kids come home from school, we talk to them about reading and don't just say, "How was your school today?" They say, "Good." Push them, ask them what did they learn. Tell me about some of the things that you learned. You activate your kids' minds to make sure they're involved.

I want our parents to know that in spite of all of these financial challenges, New York and our public schools, the best days are ahead of us. They really are. We are going to turn this around. We're going to ensure a high level of literacy. We're going to make sure that our kids are engaged in real-world opportunities so when they graduate from school, they can step into this 21st-century economy, but parents must stay actively involved with their schools and with their districts. If we do that and stay as real positive partners, we can turn this entire system around. I guarantee you that.

Brian Lehrer: Chancellor Banks, thanks so much. We're committed to good faith education discussions here as I think you know. The listeners love that you take questions, so let's keep talking during the school year, and thanks so much for coming on today.

Chancellor David Banks: Thank you, Brian. I appreciate it. Have a great day.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

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