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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. New York City Schools Chancellor, David Banks, joins us now to talk about yesterday's announcement of a big shift in how students are taught to read and how reading programs will be chosen. This is going to make a lot of schools change the way they teach reading, in some cases, I think, from what I've been reading against their will. Chancellor, welcome back to the show. Great to have you again.

David Banks: Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

Brian Lehrer: The change in approach. We've talked on the show before about the different approaches to teaching reading between the so-called Lucy Calkins or a balanced literacy program that had been the standard in the city schools, and the science of reading or phonics approach that you support. Can you tell us in a nutshell why a change was needed in your opinion, and how phonics works better?

David Banks: Well, in a nutshell, Brian, 51% of the students from grade 3 through 8 across New York City are not proficient in reading. That's the basis for why we're making this change. 63% of Latino students are not proficient in reading. 64% of Black students in New York City public schools are not proficient in reading. That is the impetus for us looking to make change. The status quo has not worked.

Now, what is the status quo? It's a hodgepodge of different approaches. Many of the schools have been left to just figure out the best way forward on their own. Many of the schools have adopted, over the last 20 to 25 years, Lucy Calkins' what's called balanced literacy, the whole language approach, which I think was a well-intentioned approach, which was designed for kids to really fall in love with reading. I think what the research has told us is that it has not worked for many kids because the foundational skills of how you have to decode words was missing. We are looking to fix that.

It's not to cast aspersions at any particular approach, but simply to say, we do need an approach. A system this large, we can no longer afford to just let every school and every district just do whatever they happen to think works well, much of which is not backed by science. We think we're moving forward with the right approach. We're going to roll out for this September half of the school districts in New York City where we've asked every superintendent to work with their principals to select one of four different curricula that we've laid out.

The schools will make that selection, but we think it's important that every district work from the same playbook. It will allow for a level of consistency and stability and for a deep dive for us to do on our professional development. We want to ensure that every child can read, that is our focus, and certainly to be on grade level no later than the third grade. That's what this is all about.

Brian Lehrer: To oversimplify, the Lucy Calkins' approach didn't want kids to have to hyper focus on sounding out every letter and detract from the joy of reading that way. They might show a picture of a duck and the word duck under it, and the kids, theoretically, would get to associate that combination of letters with that image and learn how to read, in part, that way. You are saying, it's really important that we drill down, and here's what the D means, here's what the U means, here's what a C and a K together sound like, because that's how it actually comes out better in terms of reading ability in a oversimplified fashion. Is that sort of it?

David Banks: Yes, in an oversimplified fashion. There are five components to what good reading is really all about is phonemic awareness, which is being able to hear the sounds in the words. There's phonics, which is being able to match those sounds to the letters. Then there's vocabulary, you have to know what the words actually mean, and fluency. Over time, you're being able to really process accurately and quickly where your brain is able to move very quickly and see the word and understand it and process it, so that, ultimately, you have comprehension where you're making meaning of the sentences and the extended text.

The Lucy Caulkin's approach was light on phonemic awareness and phonics and heavy on what she called queuing. In some ways it was guessing. It was you, if you cover up the word, but you put it in context, kids could figure out that the word was duck. The problem is that if you took the pictures away, kids were struggling to figure out how do you actually pronounce those words without the pictures as cues for you?

We think it's important that, certainly, the way that I learned to read and people of a certain generation, that's the only way that we learned to read was not just through phonics, but being able to decode those words early. I think is important to how you develop confident readers, Brian. Listen, Lucy's approach worked for some, but it did not work for many and that's the issue, and that's what we're trying to solve for.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for New York City school's Chancellor David Banks on these changes, 212-433-WNYC. Parents, teachers, principals, even any of the 32 school superintendents and the 32 city neighborhood districts, do you have a question for the chancellor about the new literacy curriculum? Have you been hoping for this kind of change? Are you worried about the scope of the change? Some people seeing it as top down? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Chancellor, I do want to ask you about the critique of the principal's union, which says in part, "We agree that there are certainly students who require new approaches, particularly given the impacts of the pandemic. We fully support the Department of Education's efforts to provide resources for students who have not yet demonstrated sufficient growth," but they don't districtwide single programs. You said it yourself a minute ago, Lucy Calkins method work for some students, so why require a single reading program be adopted for every student in each district?

David Banks: Listen, there are a handful of schools that I think are doing really well, and we're going to carve out some exceptions for those schools, but hat's just a handful of schools, Brian. We have 700 elementary schools around New York City, and the vast majority of them still struggle to gain very significant levels of proficiency in reading, and that's the reason why we're doing this.

The principal's union, I meet with them and speak with them on a regular basis. I think we have a little disagreement there. All the principals I've been speaking to around the city are pretty much on board. They understand it. Listen, folks don't like change. People like to do what they've been doing, but I didn't come here as chancellor to play to the status quo.

I came here to try to help to transform the learning experience for all of our kids. I think it's important to note as well that the president of the UFT, Michael Mulgrew stood with us and is behind us a 1000%. He's been saying this for years. You have to give the teachers the right playbook. They are the ones that are driving this every single day.

For far too long, we said to the teachers, "Figure it out on your own," and that's not fair. The failing numbers that we've seen, I don't blame the kids and I don't blame the teachers. I blame the system. That's what we're trying to do, is to come up with a better system that says, here's the playbook. Let's run a better play, and we think we'll get much better results. That's what this is all about.

Brian Lehrer: I know you're not a political analyst, you're a schools chancellor, but if we assume that unions act in their member's interests, why do you think the principal's union opposes this and the teacher's union embraces it?

David Banks: I'm not quite sure. You'd have to ask the principal's union president. I don't think he's starkly against this. I think, in many ways, he recognizes that we need to change. I think what he has shared with me is that while change is needed, they want to be able to allow principals to have a greater level of autonomy. Listen, I was a school principal for 11 years.

I believe in autonomy, and I've told principals since I've become chancellor, I want you to have as much autonomy as possible, because on most issues, they really do know what's best for their kids and for the their school communities, but not on this. On this, what I've realized is that we've all missed the mark. Not only are our numbers low, this is a national issue, Brian.

Listen, in the city of Detroit, do you know that 91% of the kids in Detroit are not on grade level? Think about that. Right here in New York State in Rochester, 81% of the kids are not on grade level. In Chicago, 80%. This is not a New York City issue. This is a national issue. We are all on the wrong track, and it's because we've had a failed approach. For the last 25 years, the results are in. That's the reason why we're looking to make a change.

I think the principal's union will be fine in time. Some will see, I think, where we're going on day one. Others, it'll take a little bit more time, but I do think that, ultimately, the principles will stand hand-in-hand with us to drive this because they also know in order to make change for our kids, we're going to need their leadership. They're not rallying against us, but I think that they've been used to doing things a certain way and sometimes it takes a little time to make change.

Brian Lehrer: Desiree in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with New York City Schools Chancellor David Banks. Hi, Desiree.

Desiree: Good morning. Good morning, Brian, and good morning, Mr. Banks. I am a New York City parent. I also did all of my primary schooling in New York City, and I'm fully supportive of going back to phonics. I asked this question. I have a son who is in second grade, and I asked this question when he started learning to read, where's the phonics? Why are they learning to read words as they think they're spelled rather than how they should be spelled, or how phonetic principles require them to be spelled? Where are the spelling tests? That's still a question I have. Where are the spelling tests? Where are the vocabulary tests?

I've had to start doing spelling tests or some of them with my son to try to give him those principles that he's not getting. I find that he asks a lot of questions about what words mean because they don't do the vocabulary in school. I love his school, and I think they do the best they can, but I think like Chancellor said, there's no overriding principal as to what kind of reading program the kids are going to do. I think this generation of children are suffering as a result of that. I'm fully supportive of implementing something new that brings back some of these principles that they need.

David Banks: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Desiree, thank you very much.

David Banks: Braian, can I just say, Brian-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, please.

David Banks: -that, that comment is what I've heard overwhelmingly around the city. Overwhelmingly. Sure, there'll be some others who offer up a different tone and comment, but overwhelming, I've traveled all around the city, I've been talking to these parents across the city, that's what I hear on a regular basis. That's what I'm trying to respond to, are the parents who've been saying, "We need a change. I'm not sure if my child can't read or they've just not been taught to read." I think when parents send their children to school, there are two things which they should absolutely expect from us.

One is that their child will be safe, and two, that they will be literate. Listen, literacy and reading is the cornerstone, it's access to even math. You are a stronger math student when you can read. Many of the math problems we're dealing with today have literacy tied to them. If you can't read the words, you can't even do the math at the level that you need to do it. This is one that I'm really convinced about, Brian. I didn't come into this role as chancellor deeply thinking about this, but now that I've been here, I've had the ultimate aha moment for myself. Our kids can't read because they've not been taught properly how to read.

Brian Lehrer: Another parent. Yesha, in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Yesha.

Yesha: Hi, Brian. I'm a big fan. Thanks for taking my call. First of all, I totally agree that a change needs to happen. My first grader was being taught this queuing system, which I was pretty shocked about. I wonder what the chancellor has to say about the actual curriculum that he's proposing, because I've heard that it's these basil readers that it's most like a textbook, that all the kids in the class will be reading the same book, and therefore, it will be taking away that book choice that the teacher's college brought. That joy of reading and excitement about the actual text that you're reading whether it be non-fiction or fiction, whatever your interests are, that really spurs that joy and love of reading.

I'm wary about throwing the baby out with the bathwater with the teacher's college, which I agree in principle is not the only thing that needs to be taught, but that part of it, that book choice and those libraries in the classroom, I think are so vital for that instilling that interest in reading rather than it being as wrote, going back to, if you remember, the McGuffey primers that my parents had and that were passed down to me, where they all read the same exact book at the same exact time. I just worry that that may turn some kids off because it might be boring or not speaking to their individual choice.

Brian Lehrer: Yesha, thank you. Chancellor.

David Banks: Great, great comment. Thank you so much for that. I think, yes, we don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. We want our kids to develop a love of learning. What we've been offering up here is merely a new approach to how we're going to establish this foundation. Our kids are not robots, and we don't want to treat them as such. We are going to continue to make sure that they have an exposure to a wide array of books. All the kids are not at the same level, and those who are moving more quickly through the curriculum will have great opportunities to continue to do that.

I think the big thing about this announcement is that we are simply going to ensure that those foundational skills are there. Listen, beyond the foundational skills, kids need to develop strong writing and research skills, they need media literacy skills so they can discern the information that they're getting on a daily basis. They need to deliver oral presentations and so many other things.

I just want to make sure that the listeners know that we are not just stopping at level one. We're going to continue to be very expansive in this work. We invite our parents to get really, really involved with their schools in this. We don't want you to be on the sidelines watching, but we need you to be involved with the comments just like you just raised. We can make this the most rich experience for our kids that we've ever had, and that's what we're committed to doing.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go in a couple of minutes. Let me just ask you one budget question as it relates to this. The mayor's executive budget, his proposal for the Department of Education for next year, which city council is now evaluating, is almost a billion dollars less than this year's budget. You've promised $35 million in teacher training for the new reading process. I'm guessing there's an expense in buying new programs too. Where does this leave enough money for classrooms? Are you concerned about the mayor's budget?

David Banks: No. I think we're going to be fine. Listen, we spend millions of dollars every single year on professional development, on curricular materials. Those are allocations that are already in our budget that we're already doing. In fact, we think over time, we're going to have efficiencies of scale simply because now we're going to be honing in on just a few curricular choices as opposed to the dozens that we're spending money on now that are actually not even getting us the results that we need. No, there'll be some expenses that we have to incur early on, but we'll find those dollars and we'll certainly find them because there's already allocations within our budget for curriculum development and professional development for our teachers. We think we'll be fine over time.

Brian Lehrer: Let me throw one more in here since we still have a minute. We talked on yesterday's show about the fact that, nationally, and I assume it's true in New York, 8th graders' test results hit record lows for history and civics. Knowing you were coming on today about how to teach reading, I wonder if you think there's a better way to teach history and civics that would have better results than what everybody's doing now?

David Banks: It's all connected, Brian, because first of all, if you're not a strong, solid reader from the beginning, you don't have that foundation, it makes all the other subjects that much more difficult, history and civics as well. In addition to that, we absolutely, and I've been talking about this since I came in as chancellor, have to not only teach our kids more about civics, but they have to have more civic experiences.

In fact, I will tell you it's very limited if we're just saying teach them civics as though it exists within the four walls of a classroom or in a book. The way kids learn to be more civically engaged is to be civically engaged. To visit and to go to a town hall with your local city council person, your state assembly person.

All the levers of government that get operated in our communities, that many of our kids, and quite frankly, too many of our parents are not activated and don't know anything about is part of the reason why we find ourselves facing some of the challenges that we face. If we are truly about having an informed citizenry, we have to build that muscle very early on. I want every school in New York City to have a student government. I want kids to be arguing and debating the issues of the day. Issues like climate change and the proliferation of guns. All the issues that we have to deal with.

We should not treat school as though it's somehow separate from what's going on in our communities and in the world. That's how you get kids to be much more civically engaged when they understand what's really going on around them on a daily basis. We still have a lot of work to do. That's why yesterday's announcement was so important, Brian.

If we don't teach the kids to read, they won't learn to be able to love reading, they won't learn to be able to discern what they're reading, and they become young people who are just observers of what's going on around them and not active participants so that they can change what's going on around them.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Schools Chancellor, David Banks. We always appreciate when you come on with us. Thank you so much.

David Banks: Thank you so much, Brian. Have a great.

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