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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Well, once again, New York City has a new police commissioner after the still unexplained resignation of Keechant Sewell as Mayor Adams' first commissioner and the first woman to head the department. More history is being made with the appointment of Edward Caban, who had been the second in command. Here he is after his swearing-in as commissioner on Monday.

Edward Caban: Now, it's not lost on me that today's announcement is also a first, given how many great leaders of Hispanic descent have come before me in the NYPD. To be the first Hispanic police commissioner is an honor of the highest measure.

[applause]

Edward Caban: I spoke earlier of a young Officer Caban in the 40th Precinct looking up at the wall and wondering whether he belonged. Today, I hope there is a young man, a college student, or a military veteran who hears about my new assignment today and it sparks the question, what if? To them, I say the NYPD wants you, the NYPD needs you, and your commissioner has plenty for you to do. Come join us. As the mayor likes to say, let's get stuff done.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: New York City's new police commissioner, Edward Caban. WNYC and Gothamist reporter Samantha Max has a story out now called Six Challenges New Police Commissioner Edward Caban is Expected to Face. We'll go down the list and take calls on what you think his biggest challenges are. Caban takes the helm at a time when the most serious crimes are becoming less frequent in the city.

As Samantha reports, NYPD data show that shootings, homicides, and most other serious crimes have decreased since this time last year. Car theft and assaults are up, however. Reported transit crimes are down about 5% compared to this time last year as well, according to those NYPD stats. Do people feel safer? Maybe not so much. A new Siena College poll finds some pretty eye-popping numbers.

As Samantha also reports, a quarter of the approximately 345 people surveyed in New York City said they had taken a self-defense class in the last year, a quarter. More than a third of city residents told pollsters they had bought a personal safety device like a Taser in that timeline and 17% said they had bought a gun. About 40% said they are more worried about their safety than they have ever been.

Almost 90% of surveyed city residents said crime is a serious problem and 70% said it's a serious issue in their own community. Here to talk about all of this is Samantha Max, who reports for WNYC and Gothamist, specifically on whether New Yorkers feel safe and whether the institutions that are supposed to protect them are working. Hey, Samantha, welcome back to the show.

Samantha Max: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Can we start with that poll? 17% of New York City residents said they bought a gun for self-protection in the last year?

Samantha Max: Yes, and to be clear, this is a sample of about 345 New York City residents. Obviously, they didn't talk to all eight million, but it's still a really staggering statistic, especially when you compare it to the percentage of folks that they spoke to in the suburbs or upstate. It was just about 8% or 9% said they had bought guns. Seeing that disparity in the city where, historically, most people are not carrying guns was really interesting.

I've been talking to a good amount of gun owners in the last year, especially since the Supreme Court had overturned the very strict laws around guns in the state. I've been going to gun ranges talking to people and trying to understand why they're buying guns. Some people already had one. Now, they're just trying to get a permit to be able to carry it, and then other people are buying it for the first time because they just feel like the dynamics in the city have changed since the pandemic.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anybody out there who bought a gun in the last year or some kind of self-defense weapon, Taser is the other example cited in the poll. A third overall have bought some kind of weapon in the last year. Again, as Samantha points out, it's a relatively small sample size, 345 people out of the 8 million in New York City. Siena does use professional polling methods, so that sample with whatever the margin of error is probably does represent something meaningful.

Are you one of those people? Have you recently bought a gun when you never owned one before? Have you recently bought a Taser or anything like that? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Obviously, there could be a debate on whether that extra proliferation of guns and other weapons will ultimately result in less violence or more. The stat is the stat and what it reflects largely, I guess, is public perception.

About 40% in the polls said they're more concerned about crime than ever, even though we know these aren't the highest crime years in the city's history by far. The thing we fear most, I think it's fair to say, shootings are going down substantially this year. Samantha, do you get a sense of why the pollsters or public officials think the perception is persisting at that level?

Samantha Max: I think there are a lot of reasons that we're all still trying to understand, I think especially as journalists. I think part of it is the media, what people see when they turn on the TV, what they see when they read the newspaper. There are a lot of stories about crime that shape people's perceptions, about how safe or dangerous the world around them is. Which is why, of course, here at WNYC, we try to dispel some of those myths.

I think also, there are certain people in parts of this city who really are genuinely afraid and have reason to be afraid. Just because in part of the city, the statistics are saying one thing. That doesn't mean that's the lived experience of everyone. We also have things like social media. We have just a totally different landscape compared to how things were in the '70s and '80s and '90s when crime statistically was worse, but you just weren't seeing it perhaps on your cell phone every single day.

Brian Lehrer: Just as an example and in response to this Siena poll, I looked at my New York Post feed. Among the gazillion things that I subscribe to the email lists of is the New York Post. Just over the last three days, here are some of the headlines that they have emailed out to their list.

Bloody 12-hour stretch of New York City youth-on-youth gun violence kills 15-year-old aspiring MMA fighter, 37-year-old man stabbed in neck during dispute on New York City subway platform, 63-year-old beaten to death by homeless man with a stick while cleaning sidewalk in New York City attributed to cops, elderly man stabbed in the head with a sharp stick while walking on New York City street, and knife-wielding Times Square maniac released without bail. Those are just in the last three days that people who just simply subscribe to the New York Post email list would get in their inboxes without going and looking for anything.

Samantha Max: The age-old adage is, "If it bleeds, it leads." There unfortunately is always tragedy happening. There are always crimes that happen. There are always people being killed or people being assaulted. That is something that there is always a steady flow of stories that can be told and that hopefully can be told in a compassionate and insightful way.

It does skew people's perceptions of things when you don't have that balanced out with all of the millions of other people in New York City who are going about their day not being stabbed or shot or shoved in front of the subway. All you see is the negative. Our brains are kind of wired to focus on the negative, but it just makes it difficult to get a more balanced sense of what the dynamics really are when it comes to how safe people are in the city.

Brian Lehrer: The media in general, we could say, "Do not report when airplanes land safely," if you know what I mean.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: When they report the individual mishaps with a political agenda of emphasizing how bad things are, then it adds another dimension. In that context, can you give us some of the latest NYPD stats for some of the categories they cite that are notable like shootings and murders down but, in fairness, assaults being up? Do you have rough numbers for any of that?

Samantha Max: Yes, so I have the latest NYPD data in front of me. Homicides are down a little over 10% or-- No, sorry, a little over 8%. You have, shootings are down about 25%. This is compared to this time last year. Robberies are down about 5%. Burglaries are down a little over 10%. Felony assault is up 6% and grand larceny auto is up 17.5%. I think that is the one that is definitely worth keeping our eyes on that it is up, but I think that is part of a nationwide trend to my understanding.

Brian Lehrer: Is it getting in the weeds too much to ask what the rise in assaults mean like who's assaulting who more than they were last year? Do they talk about that that way?

Samantha Max: I'm just looking at raw numbers, so it's hard to say. Obviously, assaults just in general make up a huge percentage of crime overall.

Brian Lehrer: What do they say is going on with all these car thefts? Why is that happening now?

Samantha Max: One thing that the mayor and the police department have pointed to is this TikTok trend that, again, it's not just in New York City. It's in other parts of the country, but people are jump-starting Hyundais and Kias. I won't get to the specifics because I don't want to cause anyone to go and do it themselves, but essentially using some easy-to-access tools.

People are doing it. They're recording themselves on TikTok and then it becomes a trend that becomes a bit of a self-perpetuating cycle. Obviously, that's not accounting for all the car thefts. That is part of it though. The City, the nonprofit newsroom, has done some really great reporting also on an increase in vehicle pursuits in recent months. It's interesting to see that this jump in car thefts is happening even as the NYPD is getting more aggressive about chasing cars.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and that TikTok phenomenon, Kia Boys something, and Kia's apparently that, I don't know, either makes them vulnerable or make people think it's cool to post videos of themselves with stolen Kias, whatever. Listeners who live in the city, do you feel safer in New York, safer in your own neighborhood than you did a year or two ago? 212-433-WNYC. Call or text.

How would you describe public safety in your neighborhood? How good a job do you think Mayor Adams in particular is doing on making New York City safer from violent crime? We can take a citywide temperature on that right now after about a year-and-a-half of the Adams administration. How good a job do you think Mayor Adams is doing on making New York City safer from violent crime?

It's been his number one mission. What would you like to see him do more or less of? How would you rate his response to violent crime in particular in New York City and what do you want him to do about those car thefts? 212-433-WNYC. How's the NYPD doing in your experience at what we might call the three community relations pillars that they cite? Courtesy, professionalism, and respect. 212-433-WNYC.

Not to mention not arresting or having contact with anybody who they don't really have to, 212-433-9692, with our public safety reporter, Samantha Max. Again, if anyone bought a gun or a Taser or another weapon in the last year as that Siena poll indicates a lot of New Yorkers have, call and tell us the story. Here's Ed in Sunset Park. You're on WNYC. Ed, thanks for calling.

Ed: Hi, Ed B from Sunset Park. Yes, thanks for taking my call. I did recently purchase a bulletproof hoodie. It's bulletproof and it's blast-proof. On the concern that there's a lot of things that are going on out there, I want to be well-prepared. I hope I never have to use it, but I have made that purchase because of the atmosphere in the environment out in the world now.

Brian Lehrer: Ed, interesting one. Thank you very much. Samantha, I never heard of that before. A bulletproof hoodie. He's not going to hurt anyone like he might with a Taser or a gun, but a bulletproof hoodie, ever heard that one before?

Samantha Max: I have not. I should note that the state did after the mass shooting at the Tops market in Buffalo. They did make it more difficult for people to be buying body armor. I'd be curious to know what the legalities are around the bulletproof hoodie in New York. Yes, obviously, Tasers are one of the things that were mentioned in the poll, but there are all different other kinds of things that people might use to make themselves feel safer, including things like pepper spray or Mace too as well.

Brian Lehrer: Adam in the Hudson Yards area of Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Adam.

Adam: Hi. I just wanted to raise that I think that there's one of the reasons why people may be feeling unsafe is crime in places where it's unexpected. The Hudson Yards and Chelsea are supposed to be really safe neighborhoods and they're expensive neighborhoods. In the last four months, I've had four incidents of one being assaulted by a stranger or being followed home.

I'm a big guy. I lift weights and I feel unsafe. Of having these incidents in places that I presume to be safe, it makes me feel like the city isn't. I would be curious of these numbers of maybe it's a demographic situation of people maybe that historically had the expectation of safety in these neighborhoods may be seeing some of these, whether it's theft or assaults happening in places that are unexpected and making them feel like things are on the rise.

Brian Lehrer: Adam, thank you for that report. Disturbing as it is. We've heard this before, Samantha. I wonder if your reporting reflects it or if the stats reflect it. We've had callers who say, "I understand that the overall crime stats or the overall violent crime stats are not nearly what they were in the 1980s or early '90s or that kind of thing," but what feels different is the random crime and the stranger danger of somebody maybe with mental illness, whatever, who just comes out of the blue.

Like some of those New York Post headlines that I read or some of the most publicized stories in the news, a woman pushed off a subway platform resonates for two years, and things like that. I wonder if they talk about that at City Hall or police headquarters and if there are stats that reflect whether random crime or random crime in what the caller referred to as usually safe neighborhoods, I think he means more affluent neighborhoods, are any different than they might have been in the past.

Samantha Max: That's a really interesting question. It is definitely something that I have seen in my reporting several stories that I'm working on right now where I'm hearing from residents and neighborhoods that overall have very low crime rates. There is some sort of safety issue that it might be small, but it is having a very large impact on the community. I think it really makes people just feel unsettled when they're in a space that's supposed to feel safe to them that's their home and they just don't feel safe.

Obviously, no one in any neighborhood should have to feel that way. I think during the pandemic as things have changed a bit, some people who genuinely or generally didn't have to feel those fears when they were navigating their neighborhoods suddenly are and are hopefully having more empathy for those in other parts of the city that don't always get to have that luxury. I think also, though, when we think about subway safety, that's like the prime example of how people's feelings have shifted.

The subway is this space that for years has become mostly like a very safe and well-populated space where people before the pandemic were used to taking it at all hours and feeling safe and then suddenly as the subways cleared out and you had people who were struggling with mental health under the subways when you had just fewer people around to observe things illegal that might be happening, or when you had one-off freak incidents like Michelle Go being shoved in front of a subway or a mass shooting on a subway.

That really scares people. It's, of course, not statistically representative of the millions and millions of subway rides that are happening, but it's scary enough that it leaves a very lasting impact. It just completely changes your perception of whether this space is really safe. I have definitely heard from New Yorkers who are not taking the subway anymore or who are only taking it during certain hours because they just feel less safe than they used to.

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts, "Part of the problem is Citizen app. It pings every single crime in your neighborhood," writes a listener. Are you familiar with that? I guess it's an app. I don't know. It's Citizen app?

Samantha Max: Yes. For instance, for us, when we're hearing about breaking news that we might turn to it and see what people are reporting. There are other things like the Nextdoor app or even Reddit, different places where people can be sharing information that in some ways is super helpful because it gives people knowledge. On the other hand, it is not always fully vetted, or, again, it is not always statistically representative of the general situation.

I think all of this comes back to the balance of, in some ways, knowledge equals power. In other ways, hearing and being bombarded with more and more information about scary things that are happening doesn't necessarily equate to generally walking down the street, what your chances actually are of being a victim of a crime.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel in Bay Ridge, you're on WNYC. Hi, Daniel. Thanks for calling in.

Daniel: Yes. Hi, Brian. Thank you very much for taking my call. I guess I wanted to say, as I talked to your screener, that I recently just received my, I think it's called, the concealed carry permit last month, but I did not purchase my gun yet. The reason I'm calling is that I think the topic of discussion was it's the perceived threat versus reality.

My reality is that last year, I was accosted in Chinatown. The only thing I had on me was pepper spray. I thank God that I did have that because I was able to fend off the attacker. I do have to go into Midtown at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning rarely, but I do. I'm very much in fear of my body for theft as well as attack. I'm also taking the subway at that hour, which is also very frightening. That's why I get one--

Brian Lehrer: That's why you're applying for a concealed carry permit.

Daniel: Right.

Brian Lehrer: Have you had the conversation with yourself of, under what circumstances would you actually draw the gun or shoot somebody?

Daniel: Oh, yes, that's a very big one and it's a great question. That's part of the training that's required right now. The 16-hour class plus two hours on firearm. On top of that, I'm absolutely signing up for more in that situational training. In the class, you are described situations and what the legalities in New York City are of when you're allowed to pull that firearm. That is definitely the last resort if your body is threatened-

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Daniel: -or your life is threatened. You're instructed, of course, like you're only allowed to draw your weapon if you have no chance to escape, you can't run away, you can't avoid it, and you have to protect your life and/or another person's life as well.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, thank you for calling in. I appreciate your candor. Call us again. Melissa in Crown Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Melissa.

Melissa: Hi, how are you, guys? I guess, for me, I was saying that I'm an educator. Just like doctors and nurses, I take the train, right? I go into Brownsville. I guess my wondering for Mayor Adams is, if you're on that 4 Train on Franklin Avenue, there are about 15 officers standing there. When you go out more into the outskirts on the three, you can barely find one. I just wonder what the rationale is around that since there's scholars, educators, other folks traveling. It doesn't always feel safe. I guess for me too, I do carry pepper spray. I carry Mace, but I'm just curious about what the legalities are around Tasers. I've been thinking about it, but I just don't know what that means in terms of the law.

Brian Lehrer: Melissa, thank you. Samantha, do you have an answer for her on when it's legal to own and carry a Taser?

Samantha Max: That is something that I honestly need to read up on a little bit more actually. I don't want to give a wrong answer about legality on air, but it is a very good question.

Brian Lehrer: No, better to say you don't know if you don't know. Melissa, we'll try to find an answer for you and just look it up by the end of the segment. I can't promise it, but we'll see what we can do. Thank you for your call. Before we break and then pivot to your latest article on Gothamist, six challenges that the new police commissioner, Edward Caban, faces, I want to acknowledge that. We're getting a lot of these individual crime stories. If this was all we did, we could say our caller board is looking a little bit like the New York Post feed.

Of course, that's who would tend to call in when we ask, "Do you feel safe?" It's people who don't feel safe because they've been victims of crime or threatened and these incidents are real. There's plenty of crime in the city. Let me read one text, though, that's on the other side of this, Samantha. Listener writes, "Mayor Adams is doing a terrible job on stopping violent crime because inflating the NYPD budget doesn't prevent crimes. Services and resources do. He continues to defund what actually makes our communities safer."

There's the policy debate, right? That's what we just saw in the new city budget for the fiscal year that just started July 1st. So many city council members unhappy with the police funding relative to other community services funding that could be seen as broadly or long-term preventative. That's where the policy debate lies, which is in a little different place than, "This is happening on my block. This happened to me three weeks ago."

Samantha Max: When it comes to budgets, it is a zero-sum game. When you give money to one thing, you're taking away from something else. The mayor has been very clear that policing is a priority for him when it comes to strategies around public safety. He's a former police captain. He's a huge advocate for the NYPD. I will note that he also did invest more money in the crisis management system, which is a network of community groups that are working to prevent violence without police. Their budget, of course, is substantially smaller than the police departments.

We're three years out of citywide, nationwide protests against the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. There was this moment in time when there was a huge push to think differently about how we fund public safety. There were movements called Defund the Police, which were, of course, politicized in every which way. That idea of essentially reallocating some resources that go to police instead to other community services that can be taking more of a preventative approach to public safety, that moment has come and gone, I would say.

There are still certainly plenty of advocates in New York City, in New York State, and across the country that are advocating for that approach, but the pandemic really changed things. We saw a nationwide spike in crime. We saw a spike in crime here in the city. A lot of people were scared and it has really shifted the conversation. Now, we're at this moment in time where we're waiting to see what will come of this pendulum swinging and where will it go next.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get to Edward Caban, the new police commissioner, whose name I mispronounced in the intro to this [chuckles] show, by the way. I said Cabán because we have City Council Member Tiffany Cabán. Other people I know named Cabán. Same spelling. He pronounces it Caban. We heard him do so in the clip. Before we get to Edward Caban, the brand new police commissioner, what's the best knowledge at this point about why the old commissioner, hardly old, had a year and a half on the job, but the outgoing commissioner, Keechant Sewell, left? Neither she nor the mayor have personally ever given a reason, right?

Samantha Max: Yes. Former Commissioner Sewell, she has not publicly spoken about why she left. She has not responded to my request to speak with her. What I did hear from policing experts and from folks who really keep a close eye on the NYPD is that it's a difficult dynamic when you have a mayor who is a former police captain and when you have a deputy mayor of public safety who is also a former police officer. They are, of course, going to have their own feelings about how the police department is run, especially when the mayor, his main campaign promise was focusing on public safety. I think it was just a very difficult dynamic.

Brian Lehrer: We will continue with our public safety reporter, Samantha Max, more of your calls, and get specifically into her article on Gothamist. Of course, there's been a WNYC radio version too on six challenges facing the new police commissioner. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay with us.

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Mayor Eric Adams: Now, some people may call it a micromanager. I call it being the mayor of the city that you love. Taxpayers elected me to give them the product they deserve.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams after Keechant Sewell left as police commissioner after being asked, "Did you leave because you're a micromanager? People say she found you a micromanager and she couldn't stand it." He defended being a micromanager. He said, "That's my job as the mayor of the city of New York to accomplish my goals." However Caban deal with that, I hear that they are close. We are talking with our Samantha Max, who reports on how safe New Yorkers feel and how good city officials are doing at keeping New Yorkers safe. She has an article out on Gothamist now called six challenges that Commissioner Caban will face. Samantha, they're close, right?

Samantha Max: Yes. A huge difference is that Caban, he's an insider at the NYPD. He has been there for decades, so he and Adams do have a relationship. He was in a leadership position in Brooklyn when Adams was Brooklyn borough president, so they work together in that capacity as well.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Your article on the six challenges facing him, I'm going to go down the list and ask you to describe each one of these a little bit. Challenge number one, kind of obvious, keeping crime rates down. Do you think he's going to do anything different than the Adams administration is doing already?

Samantha Max: That's a good question. I think chances are that he will probably be following in the lead of Adams as was the case with Sewell that Adams will continue to want to really play a strong role in the strategies that the department is taking, especially if the numbers are mostly trending downward.

Brian Lehrer: You wrote Caban will have to work hard to prevent another uptick, especially during the summer months when crime tends to spike. Here we are on July 19th already. Has crime been spiking the summer after going down earlier in the year? Do we know?

Samantha Max: No, it's still down. The downward trends are continuing and the July 4th holiday, which tends to be a real litmus test, it tends to be a particularly violent time. It was actually much less violent this year than it had been in recent years past.

Brian Lehrer: Number two, making straphangers feel safer on the subway. As you note, the department has flooded the system with officers to assuage people's fears and directed officers to take people to the hospital for an evaluation if officers don't think they can take care of themselves. Is it happening?

Samantha Max: There are certainly officers that I see around on the subways. I will say sometimes I see them as probably many people have, standing around in a group looking at their phones. I know that at one point, the mayor had told New Yorkers to take pictures and send them to him when they saw that. As one of the earlier callers was alluding to, I think there's definitely a question about how the officers are being deployed and how they're spending their time.

Brian Lehrer: The next one is fostering trust with communities. As you remind us under the Adams administration, the NYPD has brought back more aggressive law enforcement strategies that fell out of favor in recent years and made calls for police reform. The department has revived its controversial anti-crime units disbanded after the killing of George Floyd, which aimed to get guns off the street and neighborhoods with high levels of violent crime. Are those controversial anti-crime units doing controversial things? Are there incidents?

Samantha Max: Yes, so those are called the Neighborhood Safety Team. Their goal is to get guns off the streets in neighborhoods with high rates of crime. There was just a report that came out a few weeks ago that found that those teams were conducting stops that were having a disproportionately high number of illegal stops or stops that were made without proper cause. That is definitely something to keep an eye on.

Brian Lehrer: Advocates as you report have urged Caban to reverse the proactive strategies Adams has championed and to discipline police who have harmed or killed New Yorkers like Kawaski Trawick and Delrawn Small. Any indication that there's any daylight between Caban and Adams on these so-called anti-crime units?

Samantha Max: I think it's a little too soon to say at this point, but he definitely hasn't come out opposed to them.

Brian Lehrer: How about your number four, holding officers accountable for misconduct? Actually, the mayor recently was controversial for overturning a recommendation of the police commissioner or am I getting this wrong? I'm remembering it wrong? She was controversial for overturning the recommendation of the Civilian Complaint Review Board in a particular case?

Samantha Max: Both of those things are true.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: You're letting me off the hook.

Samantha Max: [laughs] Yes. The Legal Aid Society had done an analysis that found that Sewell had turned over a very high number of recommendations for the Civilian Complaint Review Board. That's an agency from the city that investigates certain kinds of allegations against police officers. According to reporting when it came to Jeffrey Maddrey, who is in a leadership position in the department, she had recommended discipline that, apparently, the mayor had wanted to overturn. That came just in the days before her announcement that she was going to resign.

We're currently in a moment where we're waiting to see what's going to happen with the disciplinary matrix. This is something that was created after George Floyd was killed in order to standardize police discipline. It's basically a rubric that says, "If you do this, you can get this kind of discipline." If it's the first offense versus the second offense, it was part of a real movement in City Hall to be reforming the police department. Now, there's a chance that some of that could be rolled back or that discipline could be made a little bit more lenient.

Brian Lehrer: Your number five challenge for Police Commissioner Edward Caban, boosting morale. We certainly hear this from the police union all the time. That New York Post feed that I referenced before, there are articles that pop up fairly frequently about how fast people are leaving the NYPD. How is morale? Mayor Adams is their champion compared to Mayor de Blasio as they see it, so how is police morale?

Samantha Max: I think it is still a struggle. It's something that Sewell actually considered one of her biggest priorities and achievements was really trying to boost morale. From the officers who I spoke to, they had a really high perception of her and felt like she was what they described to me as kind of a cop's cop. I actually don't know if all the members of the rank and file feel the same way about the mayor. I think it's a bit more of a nuanced dynamic than that, even though he is a former police captain.

We are seeing lots of officers that are leaving the department and it's not keeping up with the rate at which they are recruiting people. This is something that I had reported on in the past. It's difficult to know exactly all the reasons why people are leaving. Some of it might honestly just be attributed to the fact that after 9/11, for instance, there was a huge surge in people who joined the department.

Now, we are far enough away from 9/11 that those people may be reaching retirement age, but it's also definitely a morale issue and people feeling frustrated by the climate around policing, by the job requirements, by the fact that they're having to do all this over time and be redeployed whenever, for instance, President Trump has to come to town. They have to spend all day standing around, making sure that there isn't some sort of chaos around that.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I guess the mayor himself does not have the power to set the conditions of morale for the NYPD. There is also, as you're saying, the general environment public perception of the police these days in the population at large. Obviously, not just what the mayor does. Hey, for our caller from Crown Heights before who wanted to know if it's legal to carry a Taser in New York City. It seems like we can't give you a good answer because it does seem to be a gray area in the law right now. We've been looking it up.

One of our producers even called a gun shop just in the last few minutes and did a little reporting for you. What we can find more or less is this. They are currently illegal to own in New York State, but a 2019 federal court case ruled that Taser bans are unconstitutional. I'm not sure they've worked that out yet with regard to where the line is in New York State. The law itself is still on the books, banning personal ownership of Tasers as far as we could find.

The gun shop person who answered the phone when we called said they are still illegal in New York, but also said it's a gray area. The gun shop person said if you're attacked and tase your assailant, you could both be arrested for having a weapon, both of you, but you could claim self-defense. He pointed out he's not a lawyer, but there you go. You probably don't want to find yourself in that position of having a weapon, a weapon that might be illegal under any circumstances. There you go. Let's get another few callers in here to end the segment. Ellie in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ellie.

Ellie: Hi. Hi. Hi. Oh, my goodness. I didn't think I'd get on. I was just calling about the subways. I just feel about 60 years old. My mom's 88. We've both been on the subways recently. In fact, she took a bus up from South Jersey to the Port Authority and then got on the A train and came to Brooklyn to meet me. She had no problems. Yes, it was late afternoon and whatnot.

Next day, we took the train to Queens. I just feel like I'm not fearful. I'm not going to be scared. I'm not going to let anybody make me scared about riding the subways. I've ridden them all times of day and night. Same with my kids. Yes, I worry about my kids a little bit more so, but they're usually in groups of people. The more people on the train, the more safe it all is. Go on.

Brian Lehrer: No, you're not running into incidents like some of our callers from earlier have and you're feeling safe while you're riding the subways?

Ellie: Yes, I'm not totally ridiculous. I'm not getting on. I've made the choice not to get on an empty train car. I'll go look for the car that's got a few people on it. I'll avoid a car with this or that. I've taken the train out to LaGuardia super early in the morning to catch a six o'clock flight. There's less people there. Also, early in the morning, you find a lot of working people, tradespeople getting on the train with their gear and whatnot.

Brian Lehrer: Right. In the early-morning commuting hour. By the way, we don't have a subway that goes to LaGuardia, do we? [chuckles]

Ellie: Well, you take the F to Roosevelt Avenue, Jackson Heights, and then you catch the free bus.

Brian Lehrer: There you go. Ellie, thank you very much. Sunny in Lower Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sunny.

Sunny: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Sunny: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Hear you.

Sunny: Okay, perfect. Should I start or did you want to ask me?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, no, no, you start. You called us.

Sunny: Okay, so I'm Asian American and I point that out because I know that there's been a lot of attention to my community in terms of the increase in crime. I wanted to just speak on what I observed. I feel like sometimes the word "safety" and increasingly more is being used by some people to more openly speak out about their biases and bigotry. It's really about some people just make me feel unsafe. Those groups tend to be vulnerable people.

I see it a lot when people talk about the unhoused and people who are mentally ill, who are more likely to be victims of crime. I think it's the combination of politics and the rise in technology and social media and right-wing media sites, just the anecdotal stories so that people don't really listen to reality. When Ron DeSantis came to New York to talk about how people in New York City were fleeing to Florida cities because it's safer, I was enraged that nobody pointed out. That's actually ridiculous because every major city in Florida has much higher property and violent crime rates.

I understood that the rise in crime was specific to the pandemic and, for me, the anti-Asian rhetoric by leaders. That's what I blamed. Of course, I want all of us to be safer. At the same time, people are using it for political reasons. I feel like we're living the Willie Horton commercial, but it's become reality in stoking fear of some groups. I just want to also point out that I was actually physically attacked on Passover on my way to the train station and it was random.

When I made the police report, I just realized that despite me saying that I was assaulted, they actually put harassment. I'm going to go back and have them change it because I think they did it for stats. I went to the police. They actually said I wasn't attacked even though I had been pushed down by somebody. Again, I just want to voice the other side saying, yes, when there's increased crime, we need to do something. Just be careful about generalizing and also exploiting anecdotal stories to make some people who are already more vulnerable become the face of crime. That's what I see happening.

Brian Lehrer: For people who are listening to you and thinking-- Well, on the one hand, you're saying this is over-reported. On the other hand, you were a victim of exactly the thing that you're saying is over-reported, random crime on your way to the subway. How do you square that?

Sunny: It was because there's been a specific change in the environment and the culture. In particular, I think that the Asian rhetoric that came from leadership where Asian people were-- I see it as there's a specific change in our culture that led to this kind of activity, but being reactive and not thinking about solutions and blaming an entire group is not going to solve this. All these people who are also buying more guns, that only leads to more gun violence. It's like the self-perpetuating cycle. Yes, I acknowledge that there was increased Asian hate crimes.

There was increased violence, but it was under a specific set of circumstances that are easing. Instead of addressing the root causes, we're like, "Okay, let's get rid of--" I'm exaggerating obviously, but, "Let's lock up unhoused people who may be mentally ill against their will." It's just going the other way. That's what tends to happen. We swing from one extreme to the other. I for one would never minimize the crime against a certain group of people, but we have to say, "Well, why did this happen?" instead of saying this random person, so that means that this group is more violent. It just makes me very uncomfortable.

Brian Lehrer: Sunny, thank you. Thank you so much for adding your voice. That's the last voice we're going to hear in this conversation, except to say goodbye to our Samantha Max, who reports for WNYC and Gothamist specifically on whether New Yorkers feel safe and whether the institutions that are supposed to protect them are working. I guess all we can really say with an unscientific sample as it always is on a talk show, Samantha, that there are eight million stories in the city. We've heard a bunch of them that are either reassuring or not.

Samantha Max: Yes, and I just want to give a shout-out to anyone with a story who wants to reach out to me. My email is smax@wnyc.org and happy to hear about how you're feeling about safety in the city right now.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks, Samantha. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

 

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