Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We end the week with pickleball, the friendlier and more accessible cousin to tennis, which seems to be more popular than ever. Pickleball fever is catching the attention of millionaire investors, big brands, and celebrities too. J.Crew, the clothing store is selling pickleball paddles in six classic prints they say. Celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio and George Clooney are playing it. Wealthy investors are backing the sport with millions of dollars, but as efforts to professionalize pickleball have increased, so has its competitiveness.

It begs the question, under the pressure of these changes is pickleball known for good sportsmanship still nice, and how can it actually help unite us? Also what does all of this mean for the world of tennis? Can pickleball and tennis peacefully coexist? Joining me now to help us answer all of these questions is Sarah Larson, staff writer for The New Yorker and her latest article is titled Can pickleball Save America? The sport beloved for its democratic spirit could unite the country if it doesn't divide itself first. Hi, Sarah, welcome to WNYC.

Sarah Larson: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: For the uninitiated, those listeners who've never even heard of pickleball or not seen a pickleball cart, can you start by briefly describing the premise of the game? Is it just like tennis only smaller? Just like ping pong, only bigger?

Sarah Larson: It's a little like both of those things. It's basically a smaller lighter version of tennis played with a paddle and a whiffle-like ball that has holes in it on a smaller court, often a modified tennis court, but it could be an improvised court. It doesn't have as much running because it's often played doubles and it's on a smaller space and there's a non-volley zone in front of the net, so you can't smash it. Basically, it was designed to be friendlier and more equitable. Because it was designed to be played between parents and kids who are often of different heights. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Oh, designed to be played between parents and kids.

Sarah Larson: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Was that considered a way of teaching tennis, because I've not seen a pickleball court myself, but as somebody who's played a fair amount of tennis thinking about the much smaller court and that it's double as you say, it sounds like it would be kind of claustrophobic.

Sarah Larson: You will see a pickleball court, because pickleball is coming for everyone. It was invented in 1965 and it has a charming origin story. It was invented on Banbridge Island near Seattle by three dads who were summering there with their families. The legend has it that one of the kids was complaining that he was bored so the dads just came up with a game from whatever was lying around. One of their houses had an old badminton court and they had broken and half usable equipment.

They threw together a game with what they had there, which I think included a whiffle ball type ball and stuff. Then they actually worked hard on the rules and made it so that it could be played by the whole family. They did it very cleverly and very well and they were also very connected people. One of the inventors, Joel Pritchard became a US representative and so the game spread partly because they knew a lot of people who spread it around the country and the world, and also fell in love with it, because it is quite a fun game.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, do you play pickleball, or has the recent hype around it made you consider picking it up? If so, do you play to win or what do you play for? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Are you nicer when you play and are your opponents still nice to you or is the good sportsmanship nature of the sport already lost once you get out on the court and try to win a game? Maybe you agree that pickleball can unite us all and save America as the title of Sarah's New Yorker article puts it. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. By the way, why is the word pickle in the title of the game?

Sarah Larson: That's also a long story, but the families themselves had different explanations for why it was called pickleball. There's a story about a dog that it was named after a dog. That's not true, although they did name their dog Pickles later on. There's a story that it was from a pickle boat composed of different kinds of rowers, but I think really it was just a fun name and the ball looks a bit like a pickle. It's a ball with holes in it. It's a bit like a cucumber. I don't know. I think they were just trying to be fun and make it more appealing. You have to admit it's a funny name.

Brian Lehrer: It's a funny name. To the title of your article in The New Yorker, Can Pickleball Save America, the sport beloved for its democratic spirit could unite the country if it doesn't divide itself first. Let's take the divisions part of that first. How is pickleball dividing itself?

Sarah Larson: There are a couple of things. One is that people fall in love with it very intensely and they want to play it all the time because it makes them very happy and it's a very social sport and it's an intimate space and it's conducive to conversation. The games are often short, so people get to know each other. A lot of people who love pickleball came from tennis and find that it just has a different culture. There's a bit of some tension between tennis and pickleball, usually because they're competing for the same courts or the same space. There's that.

Then there's also a developing pro-scene in pickleball, and there's just been-- In a new sport, it's like who's in charge of this sport? It's not a new sport, but it's newly popular and there are various governing bodies in the pickleball world that organize it and so on. It's not always been clear. No one's really in charge, but an investor came in and bought three of the biggest entities and is shaking things up. That's caused some of the-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: There's pro pickleball, you say. That's got to be competitive, playing to win, right?

Sarah Larson: Sure is. Yes. There are some excellent, excellent pickleball players who are very athletic, it's pretty amazing to watch them. Yes, that scene. The money is growing. The sponsorships are big. They're more than 300 kinds of paddle makers.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Sarah Larson: Yes, there's a lot happening, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: It must be very fast. I haven't seen it, but it must be very fast when the pros play. One of the reasons I like watching doubles tennis, which people don't pay attention too much at the pro level compared to singles men's tennis and women's tennis. Doubles tennis is fun to watch for me because it's really fast. Pickleball, two people on a side, on an even smaller court must be really fast.

Sarah Larson: It can be really, really fast and it can also be kind of slow and to some a little boring because some of the shots are very gentle and soft. You don't use as much power generally as you do in tennis. Some of these shots are like dinking is just setting people up and positioning the ball, but then there are these hand battles that are volleys in the air that are really fast. Yes, that's very exciting to watch.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine in Ridgewood, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine: Hey, how are you? I'm calling because I'm curious as to whether your guest has had experience with communities who complain about the noise of the pickleball, specifically the wonk of the pickleball as your screener helped me identify. If so, what have those communities done about that?

Sarah Larson: That's definitely one of the more contentious issues in the world of pickleball. Some people really can't stand the noise. It's this plastic pop, pop, pop sound. That is definitely unresolved. There have been well-publicized battles about pickleball noise all over the place from Provincetown to various islands, in British Columbia, and everywhere else. One community has solved it by using an indoor ball, which is softer and I guess quieter, but I don't really know the answer to this, but it's definitely an issue and people are upset about it. Is this happening in your community?

Catherine: Oh, I'll never say, but thank you for the recommendation.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine, thank you very much. Vicente in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Vicente.

Vicente: Hi. To build up on the last points, I would like to say that to me the interesting model to follow for pickleball would be padel, which is the Spanish and Argentinian traditional sport, where they have built their own designated facilities for it. I'm a tennis player, I'm a tennis coach in the New York area. For me, I think making this distinction would be a good spot for pickleball. I think it will give it the legitimacy that it deserves because I think that it's very positive, and it's great for older people to play a sport when still active. The fact that we are competing for real estate, between tennis and pickleball, I find problematic.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Vicente, thanks a lot. He makes a couple of points there. How about that competing for real estate with tennis? That's got to be a real thing. Park space is not unlimited, and parks with tennis courts, tennis courts take up a lot of space. If you want to put in pickleball courts too, it's got to take from something I guess.

Sarah Larson: Yes. Also, pickleball courts are smaller, so you can fit more in than you could a tennis court. People definitely need to figure out how to do this. In New York, people have been in the city. This is a hot topic, but in New York City, people have been just improvising courts all over the place. Handball courts are just paved lots. They have meetups and they coordinate. They're all BYON, which means bring your own net when it's going on. It's an incredibly vibrant and busy community of pickleball players. There are plenty of paved spaces all over the place that are empty at times, but they often are competing with kickball, or people doing other kinds of--

Brian Lehrer: Vicente's other point was that it's a lot of older people who may be slowing down physically, but this is still something that they can do that's active. If it started out as a game designed for parents to play with their children, as you said earlier, is it becoming a game that a lot of older people play with each other?

Sarah Larson: It actually was popularized as a sport that older people really-- It first got popular in retirement communities and RV parks that had pickleball courts. Also in schools with kids, but it has a stereotype as being an older person's sport. I talked to lots of older players who were thrilled to have something that was a bit more accessible to them and had less running than tennis had been. A lot of young people are playing it too a lot. It's growing quickly among young people.

Brian Lehrer: Christina in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Christina.

Christina: Hi, Brian. I love that we're talking about pickleball. I was introduced to the sport in 2020, and have really gotten into it just with my family in the last couple of years. Everything's been very hard and tense and the news is just like every day is just something that's more upsetting than the next. My sisters and I, our parents lean on a different political side than we do, and in another wide tense time where sometimes conversations can be a bit stressful, pickleball was something we could always do and it was just definitely something that we could all play together and put things aside for a moment, and just all have a nice time.

Yes, I love pickleball, and they do. They also are from the retirement community as well. They're in Florida. It is something that we all love.

Brian Lehrer: Did you say you're politically liberal, but you play pickleball with your conservative family members, and it eases the tension?

Christina: Exactly that. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Christina, thank you very much. Does that get to the title of your article in The New Yorker, Can Pickleball Save America, Sarah?

Sarah Larson: Yes. I should point out that's the web title. The print title is One More Game. There's a guy I quote. I talk about the book Bowling Alone Robert Putnam about community and the loss of community and community groups in American civic life. One of the people who's a big investor in the sport, who's very creative and funny, and just a fun character Steve Kuhn is a big strong believer in creating community through pickleball, and that's part of what he's been trying to invest in.

I did definitely get the feeling that everybody is so happy playing it and they do put these things aside. There were definitely different political leanings among the players I was talking to and they really don't talk about politics or anything. They're just happy. Often they know that they have different political views, but they're happy to just put it aside and play together. The idea really-- Because it's so intimate and people get to know each other, I think that it creates community, and that's the real idea of how it can save America. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Jondro in Monroe who says he makes pickleball courts. Jondro, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jondro: Hi, Brian. Yes, I actually make pickleball courts. It's like she said they're often tennis courts, but with different lines. I actually make the whole thing the tennis courts. Then a lot of towns are actually putting pickleball in their towns in their parks. I also make them privately. It's quite a lot of work.

Sarah Larson: I bet. Are you finding that people are installing private courts too? I've heard about people doing that at their houses.

Jonjo: Yes. In some places, some families do have tennis courts. Also, in apartment communities, we'll get called to make the pickleball courts inside.

Brian Lehrer: Jondro, thank you very much. Logan in Crown Heights isn't buying it. Logan, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling.

Logan: Yes. Good morning, Brian and your guest. I remember when the Williams sisters started establishing themselves in tennis, David Dinkins decided to put a whole bunch of tennis courts all over the city. The funny thing is that black people couldn't afford tennis, even in their neighborhood. Now, we have to speak about things that are supposed to unite New York, another bourgeois that black people won't be able to afford? Because it sounds more like affording black people out of New York, than uniting New York.

Brian Lehrer: Logan, thank you. What about that?

Sarah Larson: What about that? Pickleball is not as expensive as tennis. One of the things a lot of players have talked to me about is that the equipment is pretty affordable, and it's very accessible. Socially, it is friendlier in all ways. It is a very white sport, I have to say. A lot of the players I've talked to were well-off white people and one of the people in the pickleball world referred to it as the Tesla crowd.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, boy.

Sarah Larson: [chuckles] It was very diverse. The tournaments I went to and certainly in New York City, and there are a fair number of black players.

Brian Lehrer: We have 10 seconds left. Is the Olympics in Pickleball's future?

Sarah Larson: If people are dreaming of the Olympics and trying to make it happen, I think the next step is to get it as a demonstration sport, which seems like it's in the works so stay tuned.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah Larson's article in The New Yorker, Can Pickleball Save America? At least that's the online version. Who sees the print edition anymore. Sarah, thanks a lot.

Sarah Larson: Thanks so much, Brian.

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