[MUSIC - Taylor Swift: Speak Now]

Don't wait, or say a single vow

You need to hear me out

And they said, "Speak now"

Brian:  No, that's not The Brian Lehrer Show theme song, that's Speak Now from the eponymous Taylor Swift album which was re-released this week. Why are we talking about Taylor Swift? As her Eras Tour comes to a close, at least here in the US, it is on track to amass a billion dollars in sales which would make it the highest-grossing tour ever. Elton John currently stands to lose holding that record, but there's more. Back in 1964, The Beatles famously held the record for the most songs in Billboards's Hot 100 at any one time when they claimed the Top 5 list.

Last November, Swift doubled that record. She locked down the entire Top 10 of Billboard's Hot 100 with songs from her album Midnights. She recently beat out Beyonce as the highest-earning female musician ever, bigger than Elton John, bigger than The Beatles, bigger than the Queen Bee. Whether you're a fan or not, she's come to dominate the music industry. Her success could say something about the future of it and how artists make money or sometimes don't.

Joining us now, not just on the historic popularity of Swift's music but how she's shaping the industry is Charlie Harding, music journalist and co-host of the Switched On Pop podcast. That's the Vulture podcast about the making and meaning of popular music. Charlie, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Charlie: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Brian: Listeners, this is for you too. It's probably not a stretch to say we have some Swifties listening right now. If you don't know, Swifties is what Taylor Swift fans sometimes call themselves. We'd really love to hear from you. What do you think Taylor Swift's contribution to music has been? Which milestones do you think are the most important? Maybe you went to one of the stops on the Eras Tour.

I think some people are still commuting home from the traffic at MetLife Stadium. How long ago was that? Or maybe you're buying the vinyl re-releases of her albums. Maybe you're what some would consider an unlikely Swifty. Why does her music appeal to you if you're not in the core demographic? Any parents of Swifties listening right now who've become Swifties yourselves through your kids? Tweet, text, or call, 212-433-WNYC. For your calls or texts, 212-433-9692.

We're going to get into the business of music here in a bit. To begin, Charlie, for those who are unaware, why does Taylor Swift seem even bigger all of a sudden, even bigger than she already was which was ginormous?

Charlie: Yes, she's never not been big since her 2006 debut, but as you shared, she's just been on her Eras Tour. At the moment, according to Chartmetric, she's the most streamed artist around the world. She's also released six studio albums since 2020, and three of those have been re-releases of old recordings. She just recently put out the album Speak Now, so there's any number of reasons why she's in the press, but largely from the tour and this new album.

Brian: To be really clear about this because it's really fascinating, she's not just re-releasing old albums on vinyl now, she's actually re-recording full previous albums of hers, the same songs and the same order, and she's doing those albums again?

Charlie: That's exactly right. She's updating them in a few places. There's a couple of updated lyrics. I think of these re-recordings as almost like the IMAX version of Taylor Swift. She is at her prime in terms of her vocal abilities. The production of these albums is supported by her live touring band, especially in the re-recordings we've heard so far which are largely in the country pop world. The organic feel, the bigness of her live band playing these recordings, they sound bigger, fuller, larger than life. They are quite remarkable.

Brian: Yes. It's artistically so interesting to go back and do the same album that you did however many years ago. Taylor Swift's first album as a point of history for those who don't know came out in 2006 back when she considered herself more simply a country singer-songwriter. Since then, she's reinvented herself a few times, I think it's fair to say, but she's faithfully written or co-written every one of her songs.

You've talked in the past about one of her signature items, something you call the T Drop. We've got a bit of the song You Belong With Me as an example. Just give our listeners a heads up what to listen for.

Charlie: We call it the T Drop. It goes ba, ba, ba. She uses it all the time. It's how you can identify a Taylor Swift song for sure.

Brian: Here we go.

[MUSIC - Taylor Swift: You Belong With Me]

Been here all along

So, why can't you see?

You belong with me

You belong with me

Brian: Back us out of that. What was the T Drop in there?

Charlie: "Can't you see? You belong with me." That little whine that she does is the T Drop. It just occurs through every one of her albums no matter what genre she's working in, whether it's country or pop or down-tempo things, you're going to hear that little melodic figure over and over again.

Brian: What should I ask you next? What's this thing about being bigger than The Beatles? Is there an Eras hahaha competition here?

Charlie: Sure. I think it's really important to note that when we say that she's bigger than The Beatles, part of that is that Billboard constantly changes how it counts sales. The bean counting methodology has just changed since then. It's easier now than ever before to have all of your songs chart on the Hot 100 because previously, you would have had to have all of your songs probably be radio singles and all sold as singles.

Now, if someone goes and streams your entire album all the way through and all of your fan base does as well, it's likely that all of the songs in the album may make it on the Hot 100. She's definitely breaking records, but a lot of it has to do with a change in how things are counted but also a change in how people are listening. Is she bigger than The Beatles? She definitely is having the biggest tour of all time, so she definitely is capturing certainly the same amount of global awareness I think that The Beatles were in their heyday.

Brian: Nina in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nina.

Nina: Hi, Brian. Love your show. Listen to you all the time.

Brian: Thank you.

Nina: I actually became a Taylor-- loved her music from the beginning when she first came out, but I really indulged and became a fan of her these past couple of years. I think she's one of the last great storytellers as far as our generation like millennial, Gen Z. I'm a young Black woman, mixed race, whatever people want to identify me as. For a lot of soul music, I grew up listening to rock, listening to Beatles, listening to rap, everything, I feel like her music collectively, especially with Midnights has really embodied just good times, a very relatable--

It's hard to find artists nowadays. Everyone's singing about sex, partying, and popping stuff, or whatever. I think she just really relates to people from anywhere, any background. The beats are good, it's put well together. Her lyrics are great, especially, the album Midnight, every song is dope including the one with Lana Del Rey. She's great.

Brian: Is it just good times for you because we're actually planning a separate segment on how Taylor Swift is apparently helping some of her listeners through hard times? Maybe you saw that op-ed in the New York Times recently by a psychologist who says so many of her clients, especially young adult women clients come in and like, "Oh, I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with that, and Taylor Swift songs really help me through."

Nina: Yes, they actually do because, again, my parents are like 14, 15 years apart. My dad's Italian. My mom is beautiful Black woman. I grew up also listening to a lot of country, so Bonnie, I think her name is and The Judds, they were storytellers. I feel like growing up listening to that, and now in my era, Gen Z, millennial, I feel like she's a good storyteller as a young woman. She relates to everything from breakups to empowerments, to our own personal flaws like Anti-Hero, Midnights, Snow On The Beach, Karma.

It's just like it's real without being raunchy, but it's still being sexy, it's still being a woman, it's still being relatable, and guys can jam to it too. I'll be in the car with my guy friends or my boyfriend, and the beats are vague. Yes, they love it and it's good.

Brian: Nina, thank you. Thank you.

Nina: She's a great artist.

Brian: Thank you. Please call us again. Charlie, what percentage of the audience at Taylor Swift concerts are male if you know?

Charlie: I was not privileged enough to get a ticket to the Eras Tour, but I did get to see the Reputation Tour back in 2018. As a male in my mid-30s, I definitely stood out like a sore thumb. There were a lot of moms and daughters, which was really fun to see. I think everyone in the audience was having a great time no matter what background you're coming from.

Brian: Danae in Georgia, you're on WNYC. Hi, Danae.

Danae: Hi. I think the reason that I've been able to listen to her for so long is she's so timeless. You can go back and listen to the same songs that she came out with 10-plus years ago. It's still like you know every single word and it never dies, so I love her so much.

Brian: Danae, thank you very much. Call us again. Sinai in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello, Sinai.

Sinai: I am so surprised I am on WNYC. I just want to say that ever since Taylor Swift's new album came out, I started listening to the album every day. I am, by the way, Liora Noam-Kravitz's son.

Brian: [laughs] One of the great engineers here at WNYC.

Sinai: I just want to say that I love WNYC.

Brian: You're Liora's son. That's amazing.

Sinai: Thank you so much.

Brian: I remember when you were born.

Sinai: Yes, you announced it.

Brian: That is great. We're getting them at all ages because Sinai is 10. We heard from the 20-year-old who called in before. Charlie the caller before that was a little older. Let's take one more. Mimi in Red Bank you're on WNYC. Hi, Mimi.

Mimi: Hi, how are you doing? I'm one of the older Taylor Swift fans. I'm a songwriter, but more importantly, I teach songwriting. Even just this morning, I used You Belong To Me in one of my classes, and it's just like one of your last listeners said, these songs don't get old. I think one of the reasons is because Taylor Swift is such a great songwriter. She's changing traditional song form. Maybe where one song will have just a chorus, she'll put in a double chorus where that second chorus has additional lyrics, different lyrics. That's a more modern thing to do, a 2020 thing.

The other thing is, again, she's a writing genius, I think. If you take a look at Love Story, it's basically her rewrite of Romeo and Juliet. She manages to take, what, the greatest love story of all times, and she changes the ending. She gives it a new positive ending and she does all this in four minutes. Everyone can follow the story. It's accessible, and we love it. She sets up those courses. She's just got songwriting shots that are unbelievable. I think she's a genius.

Brian: E, e, e. Mimi, thank you very much. Mi, mi, mi, if that counts as a T Drop. Charlie, let's talk for a second about her influence on the music business because another time that we talked about Taylor Swift on the show was related to in 2014 how she pulled her entire back catalog from Spotify due to the low streaming rates that they paid artists. How is she affecting the music business other than with her own sales?

Charlie: Enormously. I think as our last listener just noted, she is a great songwriter and she understands narrative. She understands how to do that not just in her music, but also in the press. When she took her music off of streaming, I think she gave a voice to lots of other artists and musicians to be able to say, "Listen, streamers may be our partners, but they're not necessarily our friends and they aren't necessarily giving us our due."

She has also done the same in these re-recordings and shown people that you make music, you need to own not just your songwriting, your publishing rights, but also your master rights because, in streaming, 85% of your royalty comes from the master rights. If you don't own that, you're really not participating meaningfully in the revenue you're getting from streaming. She has I think used streamers as many times as the adversary in the narrative that she is building. She's always wanted to be and play the underdog role, and she's done a great job of showing other artists that they can also stand up to many of these tech company behemoths.

Brian: In the context of this show which more often talks about politics than pop culture, in 2018, Swift went from being apolitical to being political when she as a Tennesseean came out against Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn's campaign. Blackburn won and is in office to this day very far to the right senator. Swift said at the time, "As much as I have in the past and would like to continue voting for women in office, I cannot support Marsha Blackburn. Her voting record in Congress appalls and terrifies me." That was in a tweet, I think, or a written statement. Then she said some related things in the documentary about her Miss Americana that came out in 2020. Here's 40 seconds of that.

[beginning audio playback]

Taylor Swift: She votes against fair pay for women. She votes against the reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act, which is just basically protecting us from domestic abuse and stalking. She thinks that if you're a gay couple or even if you look like a gay couple, you should be allowed to be kicked out of a restaurant. It's really basic human rights, and it's right and wrong at this point. I can't see another commercial and see her disguising these policies behind the words "Tennessee Christian values". Those aren't Tennessee Christian values. I live in Tennessee. I am Christian. That's not what we stand for.

[end of audio playback]

Brian: Wow. Taylor Swift on Marsha Blackburn. My question for you Charlie is, and then we're going to be out of time, from what I've read, she had handlers who argued against coming out against Marsha Blackburn like that, like it would hurt her career. Has it?

Charlie: Oh, no. I think it has been very positive for her career. She came up in the world of country music, certainly with folks supporting handling her career. In country, you really don't want to make a stance about anything because you're really serving oftentimes a politically divided audience, and so most just stay out of politics. She did for a long time, often aggravating fans. It felt like she took a long time to come out on issues that were important.

I think ever since then, she has made countless calls of support to other important issues, and clearly she's at the height of her superstardom. I think that having a political stance has only supported her overall image.

Brian: We thank our guest from Vulture, Charlie Harding, music journalist, as we have completed Part I of our two-part look at Taylor Swift's impact on the culture this time on the music business. Charlie, thank you so much.

Charlie: Really appreciate it. I'll talk Taylor anytime.

Brian: Callers, thank you for filling all the blank space.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.