[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. There's breaking news from Albany where it looks like a historic housing deal might have been struck by Governor Hochul and leaders of the legislature that give some things to tenant leaders that they wanted, that give some things to landlord leaders that they wanted. Early political analysis is that neither side is actually happy. Maybe that means this is a good compromise, or maybe it just means nobody is happy, but we're going to talk about that as well as a few other things that are still in the balance.

Remember, the April 1st fiscal year is now two weeks old in New York State, but there isn't a budget yet for this fiscal year so they are two weeks late in Albany, and the complications of negotiating a housing deal have had a lot to do with that. We're going to talk to Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani from District 36 in Astoria now, also about one of his proposals that's gotten a lot less air time. Assembly Member Mamdani is seeking to expand the Fair Free Bus program that was piloted at the end of last year. We will talk about that too. Assembly Member Mamdani, always good to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Thank you so much for having me, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: First of all, can you confirm that there is a housing deal?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I can't confirm that. There is no deal that's been written or shared. It's just been proposals and a lot of press.

Brian Lehrer: Let me go down a few points that have been reported about this possible deal and get your reaction, hypothetically, if this were to be in a bill, what you would think of it, and if it would be a deal breaker with respect to your vote in some of these cases. I'm reading from some bullet points that were published in The Post over the weekend. One of them is, "Allow tenants in market-rate apartments who face eviction to challenge rent hikes if they exceed the rate of inflation plus 5% or a 10% rent increase overall." The Post describes this as a major win long sought by lefty politicians and tenant activists. I imagine you like that idea. It's called Good Cause Eviction. Do you have reason to believe that that's emerging? If it came through in that way, would you be happy?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I think that that is something that has been at the core of what we've been fighting for with Good Cause Eviction. The key issue is which tenants would have that right. Because that same proposal has been couched in a larger context where we are hearing that it may only apply to about just 30% of the tenants that we were intending to cover with Good Cause Eviction.

One of the most concerning parts of the exemptions that lead us to that number is this idea that there would be an exemption for a certain portfolio size. Renters do not know how many units their landlords own. Because Governor Hochul gutted Assembly Member Emily Gallagher's LLC Transparency Act, they never will. I myself pay rent to an LLC. I have no idea how many units that LLC or whether my landlord has other shell companies entirely.

Brian Lehrer: The size of portfolio exemption, is that supposed to be for small portfolios? In other words, they're trying to exempt small landlords from these rent protections for their tenants.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: That is, I think, the stated intention. The issue is that the idea of a small landlord has been used to create cover for LLCs and portfolio sizes where we have no idea if this is, in fact, a small landlord. The reason why Good Cause Eviction was written the way that it was is that it has a stipulation within it that exempts landlords that live in less than four units of a housing property, and that actually applies to a small landlord. The way that the proposals that we're hearing right now, they would apply to a far larger pool and actually exempt so many of the tenants who are being priced out of their homes right now.

Brian Lehrer: I see. On what is already seen as a pro-landlord point in this possible compromise, The Post lists, "Give developers a tax break if they set aside 20 to 25% of apartments and new buildings for middle-class families making 80% of the city's average salary." That's about $90,000 a year for a family of two or $113,000 for a family of four. Do you see something like that emerging? What would be your reaction to those numbers, I could see where you might say only 20 to 25%, that's a very low affordable requirement in a new development, and that that average income for the people who would be eligible maybe is too high. What is your take on what I just read?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: That is an attempt to create a new version of a program that has thus far been known as 421A. I represent parts of Astoria and Long Island City where those developments have proliferated around our neighborhood. Too often, they cost more than a million dollars to create a unit of housing that's called affordable, but too many of my constituents can't actually afford it.

My vision for housing in the future of New York State is one that veers much closer to a world of social housing, where we're not looking at profit as the imperative issue when developing. I understand that in coming to a housing deal, that you have to accept different parts of this compromise. I think the issue at hand right now, to quote Cea Weaver, is we don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good, but the good needs to be good.

Brian Lehrer: Cea Weaver is a tenant advocate, right?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: I never understood, even in the de Blasio city-level affordable housing programs, why there was so much reliance, and I realized it wasn't all this, and the de Blasio people would maybe object to me putting it this way, but so much emphasis on the mandatory inclusionary 20%, 25%. It seems low. If you take a neighborhood that doesn't want gentrification and you build big buildings that are 80% market rate, and so the average rent in the neighborhood goes up, but you're setting aside 20 or 25% of that building to be for targeted lower-income people, well, that might create more units total in the city by that number of apartments for people who could only afford that much but it pushes up the average rent in general.

I've always wondered, why couldn't there be much higher requirements? I know in some buildings, some developments there are and various administrations are very proud of when they get 100% affordable into a rezoning plan and things like that. Here, again, is this 20%, 25%. Do you think developers wouldn't have enough incentive to build with 50% affordable housing, 75% affordable housing, if they still got those tax breaks?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I'm always skeptical of when developers say that they can't afford to do something because what they deem as a deal worth doing is baked in with large profit incentives for themselves. I think that you're absolutely right, which is that we have provided massive public subsidy to the tune of more than a million dollars per unit for the creation of "affordable housing" that oftentimes is creating housing that the market is already creating, when in fact, our subsidies should be creating housing for those who the market has left out.

I think when I've met with developers, they say that they need to have a 6% return on some of these developments. It makes you think just how much more housing we could develop if we stripped away the profit incentive and focused purely on creating affordability and paying workers what they are actually doing in order to do so.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call on this. Oksana in Washington Heights, you're on WNYC. Hello, Oksana.

Oksana: Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. I work on public policy in New York City and have been looking at rental policy specifically for a little bit over 10 years. If you take a law and add a bunch of carveouts to it, it doesn't work. It seems like from what we've been hearing with what Good Cause is going to look like in the budget, there are going to be a bunch of carveouts. My question to the Assembly Member if there is still room for negotiation to make the law functional because if it passes the way that it seems like it's going to pass, it's just going to fail within the first year.

Brian Lehrer: Assembly Member, go ahead.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I think that until the ink is dry in Albany, negotiations continue. I think we should all treat it as such because at this moment in time, there are many who share the same concerns about the fact that there are so many loopholes in these proposals that landlords could drive a truck through them. We need to ensure that we deliver on actual protections, not just protections which sound as if they do so, but in actuality cannot be enforced.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to take one more phone call on this, Assembly Member, and then we're going to get to what I know you really came to talk about, which is your bill to expand free bus travel. One more call. Canyon in Albany, you're on WNYC. Hello, Canyon.

Canyon: Hi. How are you today? Assembly Member, my name is Canyon. I'm calling from upstate New York. I wanted to ask, as a tenant who recently had their lease non-renewed, the current proposal, as for New York City, even if upstate New York opted in, would not protect me. What is the likelihood of seeing a housing deal that includes strong protections for upstate New York tenants?

Brian Lehrer: Is there a geographical limit on everything we've been talking about so far? Is it just for the five boroughs?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: In some of the proposals that have been put forward, there are clear differences between what applies to New York City and what applies to the rest of the state. Granted, these are still proposals. This is all provisional. That is a deep concern in these negotiations, is the idea of pitting one set of tenants against another, whether it be New York City tenants versus Albany tenants, or rent-stabilized tenants versus market-rate tenants, all within New York City.

What we've been fighting for is a deal that provides the same protections to every single New Yorker, no matter where they live and no matter how many units their landlord owns.

Brian Lehrer: Still being negotiated is what I hear.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Why don't you tell listeners about the fare-free bus program launched last year? Some of our listeners certainly know and have been taking advantage of it. Which bus routes are free in New York City? What are you proposing at the state legislature level to expand the program?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Thank you for the question, Brian. We, in last year's budget, won a fare-free bus pilot which made five routes free across the city of New York, one in each borough. It's the B60 in Brooklyn, the BX18 A and B in the Bronx, the M116 Crosstown in Manhattan, Q4 local limited in Queens, and the S 46/96. These launched on September 24th of last year. They will continue until late September this year.

What we've seen has been a resounding success where ridership across these five routes has increased by up to 20%. We're hearing it from riders that this gives them an easier way to get around their neighborhood. It makes sure that they can actually do the things that they want to do, whether it's a medical appointment, a job opportunity, just seeing their loved ones.

We've also heard from the bus operators who keep these buses moving, that making these buses free has made for a safer commute for them as well, where they haven't had to worry about the assaults that so often have stemmed from fare box conflicts. Now they can just focus on opening the doors, the front and the back, and ensuring that their passengers get to where they're going.

Brian Lehrer: Have you proposed including specific bus lines in the fare-free program's next iteration? I'm sure plenty of listeners are ready to advocate for their specific bus line, "BX12, Fordham Road. BX12, Fordham Road." Nothing unbiased. Are you hearing those requests?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I'm hearing many, many requests. As somebody who represents parts of western Queens where we haven't yet had a free bus, many of my constituents have said, "Why don't we have the Q101 from Steinway to Midtown free? Why don't we have the Q104 across Broadway?" The dream is to be able to finally bring this pilot to the neighborhoods that have yet to experience it because we've had success with five.

The point of a pilot is to show that you can actually bear out what you're hoping for. Now we're proposing, myself and Deputy Majority Leader Mike Gianaris in the Senate, that we expand this 5 to 15 and make it 3 bus routes per borough so that we can ensure that when you get on the bus on Fordham Road, it can be a faster, safer commute.

Brian Lehrer: I see that Congressman Dan Goldberg wrote an op-ed, along with Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine and Brooklyn Borough President Antonio Reynoso in support of your proposal, and they connected your free bus fare issue to congestion pricing. Can you make that connection?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Yes, absolutely. What we've seen is that the entire New York City Democratic delegation has joined in support to say that this is the year to invest this $90 million. The reason is that with congestion pricing coming online in a few months, we need to follow the example of what other cities across the world did when they brought on such a tolling system. When you look at London and you look at Stockholm, they paired the implementation of congestion pricing with substantial investments in bus service.

What we're saying is now is the time to show New Yorkers that when we've talked about this program transforming public transit, it is something they will feel from the first day. They'll feel it because they'll have more free buses. They'll feel it because their bus will be more reliable and more frequent, so they can actually believe what they're seeing and not just have to believe what they're told.

Brian Lehrer: Listener asks, "Where is the money for free buses coming from when the point of congestion pricing is to get enough funding for the MTA, which is short of funds to begin with?"

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: The point of congestion pricing is to raise money for the MTA's capital budget. What would pay for this is from the MTA's operating budget. What we're asking for to expand the fare-free pilot is $45 million. Right now that is pretty much the same amount of money the MTA spends on a failed fair evasion policing strategy called the EAGLE team, where they spend $40 million, and as Hell Gate has reported, oftentimes lead to paying customers being yanked off and given $100 ticket because the EAGLE team scanners can't actually read an omni Swipe.

This money is there. It's just a question of how do we want to spend this money, and can we spend it to get more New Yorkers on public transit and have their commutes be what they want them to be?

Brian Lehrer: One call on this before we run out of time. It's Jolisse in Crown Heights, you're on WNYC. Hello, Jolisse.

Jolisse: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to thank the Assembly Member for fighting for this bill to get put in the state budget. I know the question was already asked about which free routes would be put in each borough if the bill were to pass. I'm advocating for the B12. Besides that, I just wanted to say that the fare keeps going up and the buses aren't getting any better, and especially with inflation, the cost of things going up, I know that working-class people are really struggling.

I was wondering if the Assembly Member could talk a little bit more about the stories that he's hearing from bus riders across the city about how this program would really, really impact their lives.

Brian Lehrer: Jolisse, thank you. We have one minute left, Assembly Member.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I think Jolisse hits the nail on the head, which is that, at this point in time, one in five New Yorkers say they can't afford the fare, and that's because of the skyrocketing cost of living. I've heard it from so many riders on these five different routes, which is that putting this $290 back in their pocket is $290 they can put towards the rest of their life.

Everywhere else, their rent, their Con-Ed bill, the cost of eggs, of milk, everything else is going up. Here is one place the government can intervene and look at working-class New Yorkers and say, "We are actually going to take care of this because we know that doing so helps you, helps New York City, helps our environment, and helps us get towards the city that we want to live in."

It's incumbent that we get to the B12 and we get to more and more routes so that more and more working-class New Yorkers can have one thing in their day be a non-stressful event.

Brian Lehrer: Real quick, do you expect that a version of this will be in the budget? When do you think this will all be finalized, this and the housing and everything else?

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: I'm confident that we still have a fighting chance to be in the budget because this is something that has united the state Assembly, the state Senate, the entire New York City Democratic congressional delegation. You never know until it's done. To your question of when this budget will be done, Brian, I have to use the word inshallah because I have no idea when it will be done, but soon. It may be a couple days, it may be a week. I'd be an idiot if I gave you an exact date.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Hopefully, it's in the hands of humans and not God. Hopefully or unfortunately, I'm not sure which, but we will leave it there with Zohran Mamdani, New York State Assembly Member representing District 36 in Queens and proposing expansion of the fare-free bus routes program in the city. Thanks for coming on. We always appreciate it.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.