Ask the Mayor of Paterson, NJ
Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now, the Mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, Andre Sayegh. He's been mayor since 2018. Paterson and Mayor Sayegh have been in the news for several reasons recently, including a guaranteed income experiment serving hundreds of low-income residents seen as a possible model for fighting poverty elsewhere. Also, the fight against floodwaters from the Passaic River, Paterson being one of the areas affected by many of the heavy rain events of 2023, and wondering what climate change holds for its future.
Mayor Sayegh has been controversial for the way he has supported police in his city after several shootings of civilians and the state last year actually took control of the city's police department away from the city. The mayor was on TV this week talking about the asylum seeker crisis. Though I haven't seen reports yet of buses from Texas dropping people off at the Paterson train station, only some stations further south, a little closer to Texas.
Paterson is about 15 miles west of the George Washington Bridge, along I-80, for those of you who don't know precisely where, population around 150,000. Paterson has been in the news for its concentration of Palestinian Americans. A New York Times article last month was headlined In a Place Called Little Palestine People Feel Afraid and Forgotten.
Mayor Sayegh himself, if I've got his bio right, is an Arab American of Lebanese and Syrian descent, has lived in Paterson his whole life, about to turn 50 this year. Went to Catholic school as a kid, followed by Seton Hall undergrad, and a master's degree at Columbia. Served on the Paterson Board of Education and on Congressman Bill Pascrell’s staff, among other things before being elected mayor. He and his wife are raising three kids in the city and he joins us now. Mr. Mayor, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC Today.
Do we have Mayor Sayegh? Well, I can't hear him. Can anyone else hear him? Let's see. Well, listeners, there's the content and then there's the technology. It takes both things to make a radio show, a radio station. Sometimes it's easy-- actually, almost every minute it runs smoothly because of our amazing engineering staff. Then sometimes there's a little gremlin in the machine. Oh, we're calling him back right now. Is that it? Okay, we lost his line.
I'm going to invite you in the short time that it's going to take to reconnect to call in. Anybody from Paterson listening right now? Any constituents listening right now? Hello, Paterson, call in with any question or anyone else. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for New York and New Jersey Public Radio on the New Jersey side now as we move from our Albany correspondent to the Mayor of Paterson. Mayor Sayegh, I think we have you now. Can you hear me?
Andre Sayegh: Brian, good morning. Happy New Year and I'm really encouraged to talk to a fellow Columbia graduate.
Brian Lehrer: Hah, thank you very much. Yes, both of us got master's degrees there.
Andre Sayegh: That's correct.
Brian Lehrer: First, I always like to give my guests biography correction rights when I get the details from reading and not from knowing you. Anything you want to correct or add there about yourself from my intro?
Andre Sayegh: Not at the moment, no. Thank you. By the way, I just want to know, you're from Queens, are you a Mets fan?
Brian Lehrer: Yes. Oh, don't get me started on my long history that nobody believes of being both a Mets and Yankees fan because my parents were from the Bronx, so I started off going to Yankees games and was imprinted as a Yankees fan, but grew up near Shea Stadium so went to Mets games all the time as a kid. Kind of into both of you, but absolutely a Mets fan.
Andre Sayegh: A fun fact, my eldest child, my daughter Sophia, her middle name is Shea for Shea Stadium.
Brian Lehrer: Wow.
Andre Sayegh: Yes sir.
Brian Lehrer: How did you become a Mets fan growing up in Paterson? Because it's usually the Yankees fans who live there because you can just come across the bridge and be at Yankee Stadium basically.
Andre Sayegh: That is correct, but what happened was-- Well, originally, my favorite player was Reggie Jackson and I also liked Rick Cerone, he went to Seton Hall University. But then when I was coming home from school, we’d put on Channel 9, we watched a little Batman and Robin and The Monkees, and all of a sudden, the Mets came on and it was 1983 so no one could accuse me of jumping on a bandwagon because they were really bad in 1983.
Brian Lehrer: All right. Then I have to ask you, being so close to the Meadowlands, Jets or Giants?
Andre Sayegh: Giants, but I root for the Jets out of sympathy. I hope the Jets fans don't take that the wrong way.
Brian Lehrer: Yes, somehow I never got the Giants thing. I'm a Jets fan all the way. All right. All this news and the issues. Can I start with the flooding?
Andre Sayegh: Of course.
Brian Lehrer: We do a climate story of the week on this show. I think repeated flooding in New Jersey River towns is one of the climate stories of the year. Many listeners from elsewhere in our region may not know that you had to close the schools in the week leading up to Christmas break because of the most recent storm. First question, are the schools back in session now and are they safe and dry?
Andre Sayegh: Yes. Our students went back to school this Tuesday, January 2nd. All three of my children who are Paterson Public School students, thankfully they're in school as well as the 30,000 other students in Paterson.
Brian Lehrer: How bad did that storm get in the city? I was reading about water rescues by first responders, which sounds intense. How bad was it?
Andre Sayegh: Brian, let me drill down there. There was an elderly individual who needed dialysis treatment. If it wasn't for our first responders, police and fire coordinating their efforts, that man might not be with us today, and they got him to where he needed to go to get his treatment. There are other individuals that unfortunately were devastated by these floods that were rescued by boats. As a matter of fact, yesterday, we announced the creation of a fund for flood victims, and the one woman that came forward told us, "Yes, I was rescued by a boat."
Brian Lehrer: Wow, I see just yesterday you announced a new flooding victims fund with the United Way. How many people might be eligible from what kinds of effects?
Andre Sayegh: Yes, it's interesting. We're going to do case management so we can identify who is eligible to receive it. I can tell you that 31 people were initially displaced by the flood. We're thinking those 31 right off the bat, and then as word gets out and people come forward, we can provide them with assistance. I can tell you, yesterday at the press conference, we really encouraged. A local business owner found out about the fund. He came and he brought a $10,000 check. It was the first donation that we received through the mayor's office as a result of our recovery efforts for the residents of Paterson.
Brian Lehrer: Before we move on to other topics, what's the long-term prognosis or long-term plan? The climate isn't going away and neither is the Passaic River.
Andre Sayegh: It certainly isn't. We applied for a resiliency grant with the Department of Community Affairs, and this would help us build a flood-resiliency wall along the Passaic River near McBride Avenue to combat the severe flooding that ensues. Furthermore, I was in Dubai last month, courtesy of former mayor, Michael Bloomberg, and at the Climate Action Conference learned an awful lot. We're going to be applying for a grant to engage and empower our youth so that they're more aware of what's happening with the climate and what type of action they can take. Quite frankly, we want to cultivate the next generation of emerging leaders so they're aware of the severity of the situation as well.
Brian Lehrer: That's interesting. You were at COP28. We covered it a lot on this show, including the debate that I think wound up not satisfying a lot of people over whether they should come out with a statement at the end of the conference calling for a phasing out globally of fossil fuels. Instead, they talked about a transition, which is considered a little watered-down. I'm curious if you had an opinion about that, even though I realize you were there representing Paterson's interest in particular.
Andre Sayegh: Yes, it was more focused on my city and what we can do to help with flooding in Paterson and in the surrounding towns as well, because Little Falls and Woodland Park, they're adversely impacted as well. I didn't necessarily engage in that debate, but yes, I was curious to see what the outcome would be.
Brian Lehrer: Let me take our first caller for you because we have a caller on the flooding issue and it's George in the Bronx, but who I think has a history in Paterson. You're on WNYC, George. Hello?
George: Yes, good morning, Brian. Mayor, I'm curious. I know the area quite well. I often attend meetings that take place at the former Rogers Locomotive Works, so that whole series of buildings below the Falls, and of course, know a great deal about the federal historical park, the national historical park that's been being developed around the falls and the raceways and the rest.
I also know there's a new stadium nearing completion, and as it happens, a friend of mine is your parks commissioner and was the liaison with the federal government in terms of going forward with the park. I'm a little curious though, even when you were talking about what you just did, I'm not clear about where actual- -flooding took place when the Passaic overflowed. For example, to the west of the Falls when it's still higher elevation, was there a lot of flooding along that area? Once the water came over the Falls, did it flood an area like where Rogers is in that lower ground to the west of the downtown part of the city?
Brian Lehrer: George, thank you very much. Mr. Mayor, briefly on this?
Andre Sayegh: Sure, George. Thanks for your question. Also, as far as the stadium is concerned, it is completed. That was a historic one of only two stadiums still standing that hosted Negro League Games, Hinchliffe Stadium. This past May of 2023, we had a rebirth of the stadium. Whoopi Goldberg, Senator Cory Booker, they all joined us. He's more than welcome to come across the bridge to watch a New Jersey Jackals game because we lured them away from Little Falls to call Paterson home.
Now, as far as flooding is concerned, that adversely impacted the north side, which is flood-prone zone. You're talking about East Main if you really want to get granular, Bergen and a lot of the rescues took place there. As far as near the Falls, there wasn't as much flooding. In fact, not flooding near the immediate area of the Falls, but if you go towards McBride Avenue where I said we would like to install that flood resiliency wall, that's where you see some flooding and that's why we have identified that area in this grant application to address, or should I say, combat flooding that takes place there.
Brian Lehrer: The Falls are a site to behold, by the way, which I have done. For those of you who've never been in Paterson, worth a look at some point. I guess the last thing I thought we would be talking about in this segment is baseball in any way, but you brought it up at the beginning and now with your reference to the stadium, do I see correctly that there's going to be a Negro League museum in Paterson?
Andre Sayegh: That is correct. We plan to open it up within the next month or so and it'll be the second Negro League baseball museum. My wife and I actually went to the other-
Brian Lehrer: Kansas City, right?
Andre Sayegh: -[unintelligible 00:11:59] Yes, Kansas City, Missouri. Bob Kendrick, a friend of mine is the president of the museum.
Brian Lehrer: He's been on the show.
Andre Sayegh: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, I wasn't aware of that. Nevertheless, when we met with him this past April, we asked if there could be a partnership, an affiliation between the two museums. Of course, he said yes and he'll be there. Brian, we'll extend an invitation to you when we cut the ribbon on our Negro League baseball museum because if people can't make it to Missouri, if you can't go to Kansas City, you can come to Paterson right there at Hinchliffe Stadium, where 20 Hall of Famers who played in the Nero Leagues, they played on that field as well. It's our field of dreams.
Brian Lehrer: Good to know. Definitely, a good thing for people in our area to put on their list if they're baseball-interested or Black history interested at all. Maybe we'll do another segment after it opens when Black History Month comes around next month. Next topic. My guest is the Mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, Andre Sayegh if you're just tuning in. Asylum seekers coming up from Texas. I see you were on Channel 11 this week talking about that. With Mayor Adams new limits on when the buses can arrive in Manhattan, Texas Governor Greg Abbott is circumventing that by sending buses to New Jersey transit stops for people to then take the train into New York, but not Paterson Station as far as I've seen. Is it happening there?
Andre Sayegh: No, it hasn't happened. However, I will tell you this. It sounds like you're fond of the Great Falls and so was Alexander Hamilton. He was the founder of Paterson. That's where he found Paterson at the Great Falls. Brian, another invitation when we cut the ribbon on a river walk at the Falls, and we'd like for you to join us, we'd be honored to have you here, but as far as that situation is concerned, it's very serious.
I reached out to the colonel of the State Police here in New Jersey because we need a state-wide strategy. There has to be a state-wide solution. I've heard other mayors and other municipalities weigh in, but I think what we have to do is coalesce because quite frankly, look, Paterson is a nation of immigrants. We're the most diverse city in the state of New Jersey. Immigrants built this city, but it's a matter of bandwidth. Do we have the capacity to take in more people, but we also have to bear in mind these are human beings and we can't outright say, "Well, you're not welcome here.” There's got to be a compassionate strategy around how we resolve this situation.
Brian Lehrer: Well, the train stations they're using are further south and east, which makes sense. Why go up to Paterson when they can drop people down in Edison or Fanwood or Trenton, but you said on TV in that interview that Paterson welcomes immigrants. I'm curious if you want Paterson to be a new destination from the people coming up from the border. If Governor Abbott hears this interview, depending on what you say, you might suddenly have your hands full. Are you ready for that?
Andre Sayegh: No, that's why I want to emphasize the bandwidth. We may not have the capacity, but in the past, what we've done is when there were immigrants coming from Peru, or Dominican Republic, or Turkey, or Syria, we've done an assessment to see if we can accommodate them. That's what I'd like to do. See, if we can accommodate these individuals, like I've said, Paterson is a nation or we're a city of immigrants within a nation of immigrants. Quite frankly, I think what we need is a comprehensive immigration reform on federal level.
Brian Lehrer: Paterson is over 60% Latino population, right?
Andre Sayegh: That is correct. You've done your homework. Very good.
Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams is looking for other places in our area to take up some of the demand for housing and services. Have you been in touch with his office to offer anything specific?
Andre Sayegh: No, I have not. However, I do have a direct line to Mayor Adams.
Brian Lehrer: All right. You may be getting a call this afternoon. Here's another call on the river flooding. Big problem if you're just joining us listeners in Paterson this year and other Passaic River towns and it's only going to get worse if the climate keeps going in the direction it's been going. Jack in Rockland, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jack.
Jack: Hi, mom.
Brian Lehrer: Hi, mom.
Jack: Hi, Brian.
Brian Lehrer: Hi, Jack.
Jack: I just calling up to my wife to tell her I was on. Brian, your guest is a Pirate. Before we start, I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Wildcat. Did he frown and get nasty or anything?
Brian Lehrer: Is that a Seton Hall reference?
Andre Sayegh: Wait, is Jack a Villanova Wildcat? Is that what he's saying?
Jack: You bet. I'm flashing my [unintelligible 00:16:24].
Andre Sayegh: You own us.
Jack: I've been listening today.
Andre Sayegh: Unfortunately, you own us.
Jack: Well, yes, we're doing great. We owned Creighton too, but you guys are doing, you beat Connecticut.
Brian Lehrer: This is not the sports talk station. What's going on here? [unintelligible 00:16:37] Go ahead. Go ahead.
Jack: Anyway, mayor, I've listened to you. Just that I wasn't aware they-- I can look across the street and see New Jersey. I have two degrees in political science. You probably have one yourself. I could [unintelligible 00:16:54] New Jersey.
Andre Sayegh: [unintelligible 00:16:57]
Jack: I'm old in New Jersey, and I've been to Paterson, I know all about it. I'm 83. I'm an old Wildcat. Anyway, I also was serving on the Sovereign Village Board, and in the 1950s in New York, you can allow a thing-- that the county planning board recommended against this development because it's in a floodplain, but the village had a supermajority of four. The guy who voted against it, I became his deputy mayor anyway. There were 150 units built there, and then most of them were gone because it's been flooded out and there's a lot of tragedy, anyway.
Brian Lehrer: Jack, I'm going to jump in just for time purposes. I appreciate your call. Mayor to the issue that he raises, I'm sure Paterson needs more affordable housing, like a lot of other places in our area do as we were talking about in our previous segment with our last guest, but does the relationship with the river change what kind of development you can have there?
Andre Sayegh: Of course. If I may, I'd like to elaborate because as far as affordable housing is concerned, as a part of the restoration of Hinchliffe Stadium, we’ve built affordable housing on the site on that footprint, 75 units for senior citizens. Then we also put the ribbon on a 75-unit affordable housing project called Grandparents Raising Grandchildren. We just did that this fall to accommodate the real need that we have grandparents who are raising grandchildren in Paterson and I'm sure in other cities as well. Those are two projects.
Then I think Brian, you’ll appreciate this, another affordable housing project. It's been called innovative. It could be a model to emulate in other municipalities. We have a 56-unit affordable housing project that accommodates individuals with chronic medical conditions. In fact, some of those individuals sought shelter. They were homeless. They were seeking shelter in our hospital's emergency room, so we needed to make sure they had permanent housing. That was another affordable housing project. We've actually developed about 500 units in 5 years of affordable housing, but Brian, you're right, you could always use more.
Brian Lehrer: Let me raise another serious issue with you. 2023 was a year in which the state of New Jersey took over Paterson's Police Department and the State Attorney General charged a police officer with shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect, Khalif Cooper in the back, paralyzing him. You had defended the officer and he was not charged locally, I gather. It seems like your administration and Governor Murphy's administration have pretty different takes on good policing and criminal justice reform. What's your side of this?
Andre Sayegh: Prior to the takeover, we're talking about the first three months of 2023, there were strategies that we had in place to help us reduce- -crime, because it was a priority. I was reelected in 2022 by a large margin. There was a mandate there and public safety is paramount. First three months of last year, we saw a significant improvement in public safety. Homicides were down 66% year over year and overall shootings down 30%. I've said this ad nauseam, Brian, that you cannot police all your problems away. You can arrest everyone you want and confiscate all the guns, but you got to focus on your rate of recidivism and what are the alternatives to people succumbing to the scourge of the streets?
Here are some of the alternatives. We founded the first financial empowerment center in the State of New Jersey where we provide assistance to people who are struggling with their finances. We relaunched a guaranteed income initiative to provide financial assistance to low-income families. We have a reentry program outside of my office. We provide reintegration services for people who have been recently released from prison or jail.
Before mentioned Hinchliffe Stadium, the historic ballpark, 100% of the employees are Paterson residents, whether they work in maintenance, security, or concession, and a number of those individuals are getting a second, third, or maybe even fourth chance at life.
Brian Lehrer: That doesn't answer the question of, do you think State Attorney General Matt Platkin is a progressive prosecutor whose ideology will make Paterson less safe from civilian crime, or is that not how you would put it?
Andre Sayegh: Yes, I disagree. That's why I'm actually challenging it in court, the takeover. He has to be able to cite a specific state statute that says he has the authority to take over. My model is through collaboration. I believe in the power of partnerships, the power of participation, and quite frankly, there was never that conversation. One night we went to bed, the next morning we woke up and the Attorney General was in the police department.
I think we should have had a conversation, especially since I had just been reelected maybe six months prior to say, “Wait a minute, what is being done and what can be done?” Because quite frankly, there are some initiatives we were pursuing that seemed to be a duplication. He has an ARRIVED Together program, we have a Connect and Protect program, where if we get a call for service for a mostly disturbed person, not only will be a police officer that arrives at the scene, but also a mental health clinician. We want a professional on the scene as well.
Brian Lehrer: There is a question about whether that's good enough. I'm going to read from a New York Times article in June that was headlined, “For a Notorious Police Department, this killing was the last straw.” It says, "After a string of police shootings and abuse in Paterson, the killing of Najee Seabrooks led the State Attorney General to seize control of the department.” It describes how Mr. Seabrooks age 31 was ironically an anti-violence worker in his community in Paterson.
After a four-hour standoff where he was locked in a room in an apparent mental health crisis, not threatening anyone else, he emerged with a knife, but the cops had guns and he was killed. Many people, as you know, are outraged. They also question the program of matching police officers with mental health professionals in cases like that, where the call is just about a person in emotional distress, that maybe it should be mental health professionals without the triggering presence of armed police officers in cases like that. What's your view on this after the killing of Najee Seabrooks?
Andre Sayegh: You are correct. It was actually almost five-hour standoff and yes, he was wielding a knife, and it was a tragedy, total tragedy. Police officers exhausted everything they had and there's so much involved. Even the Attorney General in his statement said that the young man was hallucinating. There was a lot at stake. If anyone wants to hear the 911 tapes, I believe they can access those and hear for themselves what was happening.
We equip these officers with body cameras. We asked the Attorney General to release that body camera footage immediately so people could see what was taking place in that apartment. We emphasized the need for this transparency so that there isn't confusion or chaos that ensues as a result of a tragic incident with something of the nature of Najee Seabrooks.
Brian Lehrer: All right. Last thing or second to last thing. I mentioned the recent New York Times article headlined, “In a place called Little Palestine, people feel afraid and forgotten.” It describes Paterson as having one of the largest Palestinian communities outside the Middle East. Can you describe, just very briefly, we've got about two minutes left, the size and makeup of the community for us and what it's been like for some of them as members of the diaspora the last few months?
Andre Sayegh: Brian, we have the largest Palestinian population percentage-wise in the country. They are really contributing to the economic and social fabric of Paterson. In fact, where they're concentrated, Palestinians is the most vibrant section of our city and there's a lot of pain, a lot of pain. There's a prominent business owner, Amjad Abukwaik, he owns Sheefa Pharmacy, which is named for the hospital in Gaza, Shifa. He lost 30 members, 30 members of his family killed.
Also the most prominent Muslim cleric, the imam of the Islamic Center of Passaic County, Sheikh Mohammad Qatanani, he's lost 15 members. Like I stated before, there's a lot of pain in Paterson and Palestinians just want peace. When I talk to them, "We want peace. We don't want any more suffering."
Brian Lehrer: Well, does that mean as you beg a follow-up here that you see anger in the community toward both parties in the current war, outrage at Israel for the extent of civilian casualties that their military is inflicting to be short, but also maybe Hamas? “What were you thinking on October 7th killing babies, raping women, taking 85-year-olds hostages? You provoked all this destruction in Gaza.” Do you hear it as complicated like that at all coming from the community?
Andre Sayegh: Like I said, there's a lot of pain and they feel like peace is the solution. The two-state solution can't be just a campaign slogan or a throwaway line. It has to happen. Israelis, Palestinians, they need to feel safe. They have a right to self-determination. They both should live in peace.
Brian Lehrer: Last question, for you as a Democratic Party politician with five years as mayor under your belt now, you obviously have an out-there style trying to relate to people. People can hear that in this conversation. You're in the prime of life. I think you're going to turn age 50 in a couple of months. Are you thinking about any of these statewide races coming up for US Senate if Menendez is on his way out or for governor when Phil Murphy is term-limited after next year?
Andre Sayegh: Brian, as of now, I'm focused on being the mayor but I have never said that I would limit myself. I sincerely believe for anyone in elected office that if you have ambition, you also have to have to have the ability to match that ambition. It helps to have five-plus years’ experience as mayor of the third largest city in New Jersey and leading it through a pandemic to boot.
Brian Lehrer: Sounds like aiming for a next step. I have a feeling we'll be talking again, maybe in that context or maybe again just to talk about the city of Paterson and life in our area. Mayor Andre Sayegh, thank you very much for joining us today.
Andre Sayegh: Brian, we could talk about the Mets winning a World Series. What do you think?
Brian Lehrer: There you go. Hopefully, it won't be another 40 years.
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