[MUSIC]

Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior reporter at the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian Lehrer today. Now, we turn to New Jersey with Nancy Solomon, who hosted last night's monthly edition of Ask Governor Murphy. The call-in show airs once a month here on WNYC and public radio stations in Philadelphia and elsewhere in New Jersey. Nancy joins us the next morning each month, typically for excerpts, analysis, and, of course, your calls.

This month, Nancy and Governor Murphy covered what might be the end of the county line, that controversial ballot design system unique to New Jersey. It's now in court, of course. Why 140 school districts are having their school funding cut via the new funding formula. Nancy and Governor Murphy also discussed the newly approved New Jersey Transit fare hike that went through just yesterday. Nancy, thanks so much for joining us after working a very late night last night.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks for having me, Brigid.

Brigid Bergin: New Jersey listeners, you can also weigh in on any of these topics or others. The number, of course, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call or text. Nancy, up first, the county line. Now you have been covering this for years, but for our listeners who may be less familiar, maybe they haven't listened to the radio in the past two months, can you refresh our memories on what that ballot system is and why it's so unique?

Nancy Solomon: Right. It is unique only to New Jersey. I would say that it is arcane and complicated in a way that most people just had no idea anything about it, except for like 10 of us who follow this kind of stuff but now it has exploded. The county line is a ballot layout system on the New Jersey ballots. Each county lays out its own ballot differently and each county also has party organizations. These are huge elected bodies. Essex County, the biggest Democratic county in the state, has more than 1,000 members, so these are huge committees.

The committees endorse candidates for the primary, and all of those candidates, and in this election year, you'd start with the president at the top, and then you'd have who's running for the Senate, and then Congress, and then county commissioners and city council people all the way down, all in one line instead of the way the rest of the country does it, which is technically called an office block ballot, meaning everyone who's running for one office is in a block. You have the candidates for Senate, and you see all the names of the Democratic in the primary, the Democratic or the Republican candidates.

It's a confusing system because you have to look all over the ballot to find the people who are running for the same office as somebody on the line, but they're off the line. Research has shown that it gives an enormous advantage in a primary to the folks on the line. It makes sense because what people do is the state is largely Democratic and the biggest political machines are Democratic and so they go to their loyal Democrats, they want to vote Democratic. They look at the line, they see the president at the top or their Congressperson, and they're like, "Okay, these are the legit Democrats that I'm supposed to vote for, not some fringe candidate off in ballot Siberia to the right."

Brigid Bergin: Nancy, as you and I both know, I am a fellow election wonk. I can get nerdy on with this stuff with you and even I find that confusing. It sounds on its face like something that would put people who are obviously not on that line at a disadvantage. Yet the governor last night pretty much dismissed it, said the county line is a side issue. Democrats should be talking about their stance on other issues, health care, Gaza. Let's take a listen to that exchange.

Governor Murphy: All of those debates got crowded out by a discussion about a political process and tactic. I think that's a huge lost opportunity. I hope once it's resolved, we get back to policy. Unfortunately, Tammy will be there as first lady. She won't be there as a candidate.

Nancy Solomon: I understand your point. I would just say it's interesting that, to me, what it says that the county line, this obscure fact of the way our ballots are laid out became such an issue is an indicator of how upset and concerned people are about democracy. You have a corruption case against Menendez. You have the Trump presidency and now the resurgence of Trump. I don't think you can discount and say, "Well, this isn't a very big issue. It's about democracy."

Governor Murphy: Nancy, with all due respect, Trump has been indicted. I think he's under 91 counts. The case against Menendez, and again, he is innocent until proven guilty, is so graphic, it takes your breath away.

Nancy Solomon: The party bosses supported Menendez after he had been indicted the first time.

Governor Murphy: Nancy, this is all about this is my set of data versus your set of data. It's a tactic. It's an element of what it means to have a strong democratic organization. I think it's ridiculous the amount of airtime it's gotten.

Brigid Bergin: Well, the governor thinks it's ridiculous, Nancy, but some might argue it's about a fair shot at democracy. You were starting to say that. Can you summarize that viewpoint?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, I didn't really say very much about what I meant about Menendez. Let me just be clear that he's indicted for corruption and bribery now. He faces trial this coming May, but he's already survived one trial that ended in a hung jury. That's not an acquittal, let's just be clear. After he was acquitted, all the party bosses lined up behind him and he got the line. This is what progressive activists in the state, the case that they're making is that voters should be deciding in a primary between competing Democrats and that what the line does is it crowds out good candidates who aren't going to get the line, they don't have the support of the bosses, they're not the incumbent.

This doesn't matter whether we're talking the state legislature, Congress, whatever. You don't get competitive primaries in New Jersey. You don't get reform candidates and activist candidates and just plain old good candidates challenging incumbents and holding them accountable for the votes that they've made in their most recent term.

Brigid Bergin: Now tie this all back to what it has to do with First Lady Tammy Murphy dropping out of the Senate race.

Nancy Solomon: Right. September is when Bob Menendez is indicted in this explosive case that you know, and this time around, the party bosses and the governor come out against Menendez calling for his resignation. That was the signal. On the day he was indicted, that was the signal that Menendez is going to have a tough, tough road because he's not going to have the county line in his reelection bid. It was a very clear message for those who read the tea leaves. Now, the first thing that happens is on the day of the indictment, Andy Kim, congressman from the 3rd District, who was elected for the first time in the 2018 blue wave says he's outraged by the allegations and he's going to run.

Then in November, Tammy Murphy announces that she's going to run and within five days, the nine biggest Democratic county bosses all endorsed her. That was slam dunk game over. She's going to have the line where all the Democratic voters are, she'll be unbeatable. Then what proceeded to take place was really like the most amazing Democratic movement I've seen in New Jersey in a long time. We had a pretty interesting one that happened in 2018 with the blue wave and suburban women who got active all over the state.

This was truly amazing where you saw both rank and file members of their Democratic committees and activists and Andy Kim, the Senate candidate, all calling for an end of the line and for an open office block primary with ballots that would fairly present all the candidates in the primary for senator. Tammy Murphy, and so the three, Andy Kim and two other candidates, write letters to the county clerk saying we want you to do an office block ballot. They're supported by progressive activists all over the state. Tammy Murphy just doubles down and insists that she doesn't have a problem with the system. If someone's going to reform it and change it, she'll abide by the rules, but right now, these are the rules, and she's not going to call for an end to the county line. A week-by-week convention-by-convention fight takes place but meanwhile, Andy Kim files a lawsuit asking a federal judge for a preliminary injunction against the county line and to require an office block ballot for the primary this June. All of that is all happening at the same time and then it got even more amazing when the attorney general of the state wrote a letter on the Sunday evening before the Monday Federal Court hearing on this case.

He wrote a letter to the judge saying that he thinks the county line is unconstitutional and he's not going to intervene in this case to defend the state.

Brigid Bergin: This is the attorney general appointed by Murphy, correct?

Nancy Solomon: This is Matt Platkin, his former chief counsel and I would say at one time, inner circle Murphy. That showed a real streak of courage and independence on his part. Sorry to go on for so long, but at each point along the way from November through the end of March, what was so surprising was that the county line itself became like the central issue in the campaign which, of course, the Murphys are not happy about and they think that that was unfair. Tammy Murphy didn't create the line. She's just participating but the call was come out against it and she refused. Then at the end of March, a few weeks ago, when it became clear that the judge was going to rule against the county line. She stunned everybody and dropped out of the race.

Brigid Bergin: Because she didn't want to divide the party as that video she put out said and the governor reiterated last night. Before we move on to this point because we do want to get to a bunch of other issues that you talked about, I want to bring in Christine from Roseville, New Jersey, who wants to raise another point that Governor Murphy made last night, I think was something that troubled her. Christine, welcome to WNYC.

Christine: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I was concerned when he was defending the party bosses, especially in Essex County, because that's exactly how he got the top position to become governor and the same with Corzine. These rich people come in, they donate to these county parties and then all of a sudden, they're the big wig and they're the one on the top of the line. It happens all the time. I grew up in New Jersey. I even left a Democratic committee because it was all pre-ordained who you were supposed to rubber stamp.

Brigid Bergin: Christine, thank you so much for that call and for that perspective. Nancy, as you mentioned, one of the things that was so surprising about this county line issue was the surge in, small-d, democracy that came along with it that really has changed this race for New Jersey Senate. I want to move on, and before I do, to the issue of school funding and listeners, if you are a New Jersey parent or educator, anyone who wants to weigh in on the school budget cuts, please give us a call. The number's 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. Anyone in favor of school vouchers or deeply against them, we want to hear from you too. Nancy, let's move on to this issue of schools. About 140 school districts are having their school funding cut via the new funding formula. Let's take a listen to what Governor Murphy had to say about that.

Governor Murphy: In fact, this year we are increasing funding by $983 million per capita. We put more money into education than any state in America and we're proud of that. About 65% of the school districts saw an increase in their school funding year over year. A small number were flat. Then that leaves 30% or 140-something, I believe, districts were down. Now if you're way down, we have from moment one worked with you and we will continue to do that, give you advice, if there's money they get you money, and so we've been good partners all along on that.

Brigid Bergin: Nancy, can you tell us a little bit more about these funding cuts and who they're expected to impact?

Nancy Solomon: What this is about is the state aid to school districts. The bulk of each New Jersey school district in most cases, maybe not in low-income cities in New Jersey, but generally property taxes are what pays for the schools. The state does give state aid and it's meant to even out the problems where you have wealthy towns in school districts that people can afford to pay more in their property taxes. They vote their school budgets up and up and up to keep their schools good and strong and they pay for it with very, very high property taxes. Obviously, towns that are low-income or towns that are working class or even lower middle class, they can't keep up.

It became a very unequal system and the way the state has tried to deal with that is with this funding formula. What the governor said last night was that it's based on two things. One is that population and school enrollment numbers over the years change and so they're constantly looking at towns that maybe they don't want to close the school, but they really don't have the school population and so it warrants to cut their aid. Another factor is the wealth of the town and the need of the residents of the town.

They're constantly readjusting and that's what those 140 districts all fall largely into those two categories as the governor explained it. Either they've seen population and school enrollment changes or income changes in their town in terms of the income demographics of their town.

Brigid Bergin: Nancy, I want to get into how this might bring up the issue of school vouchers. We're going to listen to a clip about it from last night. First, can you just talk briefly about how this issue is starting to play out in New Jersey?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. Let me say one more thing about school funding because this is a really tough issue. Nobody wants to see their school funding cut in their town and nobody wants their property taxes to go up. I think the governor's caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. There are going to be winners and losers in this process. That school funding, the vouchers it's a separate thing. It really doesn't have to do with the formula per se. There are 14 democrats in the legislature who have sponsored a bill that would create a tax credit for families who pay private school or religious private school tuition and they're calling it a tax credit, but opponents are saying a tax credit for tuition is a voucher, so I did ask the governor about it.

Brigid Bergin: Let's hear a little bit from Governor Murphy. He says he is not a voucher guy. Let's take a listen.

Governor Murphy: I'm not a voucher guy. I'm not a take the money that is in the public system and take it out of the system as places like Florida and others do, and put it into the private side of the house.

Nancy Solomon: This particular bill is proposing to do this by way of a tax credit, so they can say it's not a voucher program, it's a tax credit, but a tax credit is still a voucher program. Would you veto this if it came through as a tax credit?

Governor Murphy: Nice try but as you know, we never talk about bills that are not yet on our desk. This was barely introduced and I give them credit for creativity.

Brigid Bergin: And you get credit too, Nancy, for trying to get an answer while the bill is still working its way through the process. Do you think he's going to stick to that position or are there some greater political forces at play here?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, as you well know, there are always greater political forces at play. That's our bread and butter of our jobs. I think there are. I think what's happening is that there is a large and continuing-to-grow Orthodox Jewish community in the Lakewood, Toms River area. That's Ocean County and there's a new member of the state legislature, Avi Schnall, who is from that community. One of the biggest backers of the bill is a PAC called Teach NJ that is supported by the Orthodox Jewish community. They donated $116,000 to Democrats in the weeks before the contested legislative races that were just up in last November's election. I think there are some pressures at play to be sure.

I think the governor hinted last night that he's going to try to split the baby a little bit by supporting more public funding to go to private and religious schools. He talked about security at those schools. There have been a rise of bias incidents, both against Jewish institutions and Muslim institutions in the state, so he talked about security. He talked about maybe funding school bus transportation for private school kids. I think he's going to continue to say that he doesn't support vouchers and that he won't support a voucher program per se, but maybe offer up something in exchange.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, if you're just joining us, I'm Brigid Bergin in today for Brian Lehrer. My guest is the great Nancy Solomon, WNYC reporter and host of Ask Governor Murphy, a monthly call-in show here on WNYC. Before we move on from education, I want to bring in one of our listeners. Ahmed in Paterson, New Jersey, you're on the Brian Lehrer Show.

Ahmed: Thank you for taking my phone call. Good morning to both of you. Nancy, you've been doing a great job. I'm one of your followers on the show all the time. Nancy, the biggest political boss that takes advantage of voucher was Steven Adubato in Essex County. He created two charter school under his daughter. I live in Patterson. Patterson is becoming like bunch of Turkish guys. They come from Australia. They got money for Charter School. Charter School is the biggest scam that was created in this country just to destroy the public schools.

I am a father of four kids. I need the public school because I can't afford. Most of these charter school, what bothers me, Nancy, and this is you should be investigating with your team. How many of these people get college degrees when they coming from these charter school? We know what the politician they do. The charter school is the money money. There is a guy I met one of my friends in New York City. He was the biggest fundraiser for Bloomberg, a minority person. Now he has one of the biggest charter school in Harlem. The charter school is just the kickback. Steve Adubato was one of them. I never [unintelligible 00:22:47] because he was the most corrupted person in the country, but that's what it is.

Brigid Bergin: Ahmed, thank you for calling. A lot going on in that call, Nancy. I don't know about all the connections. Certainly, there's some more reporting to be done before we share them as fact. Any reaction to some of the concerns Ahmed raised with the charter school movement in New Jersey taking away potentially from the public schools.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. Ahmed, thanks for your call. Thanks for your support. You're going to fill up my inbox if I start talking about charter schools, I can guarantee you that. Obviously, New Jersey's like anywhere else in the country. The charter schools are very controversial. The supporters of them, love them and fight passionately for them. Those that oppose them and see it as a way to siphon money, not just siphon money out of public schools, but also make money and profiteer from them in some cases, by people who are politically connected is definitely issues that come up frequently.

For instance, there is a connection between one of the most powerful party bosses in New Jersey, George Norcross in South Jersey, and a network of charter schools down there. Camden has gone through a massive transformation where it has converted a lot of its public school system to charters. Yes, there is a lot to dig into and a lot to look at. I think the research on charter schools is pretty lukewarm.

There is no research to suggest that charter schools are outperforming public schools. When you look at the large numbers of them, yes, there are some very good charter schools but there are also some not-so-good charter schools just like the public system. I think those are generally it, but I do think it is worth looking into who gets the charter, and where the money comes from, and where it's going. I think that's all a very valid point to make.

Brigid Bergin: Nancy, we have a couple more topics and one more chunky clip to play, and I want to get through it with you. As I mentioned in the intro, the New Jersey Transit fare increase went into effect yesterday. Can you refresh our memories and tell us what the new fares are?

Nancy Solomon: Right. It's a 15% hike. It depends how much you pay for your ticket because it depends on the distance you go. Buses are different from trains and then different train trips, of course, vary based on where they are and where they go. It's 15% and it's indexed to inflation. In coming years, as the cost of living goes up, the fares will go up, they won't stay static. Governor Murphy points out that this is the first fare increase of his administration. He's in year six, halfway through his second term, and that Chris Christie had raised fares over his eight-year term by 38%.

He feels that while there's no joy in this for him, that it was necessary. He's taking the heat on it because there are a lot of people who are unhappy about it.

Brigid Bergin: Well, let's hear just how the governor justified that fare hike.

Governor Murphy: I would welcome that day where they were breaking even or making money and those realities could come to pass so we shall see.

Nancy Solomon: What about low-income riders? Because this is really going to hit people, especially bus riders who are low-income and rely on the bus to get to work. Are you going to do anything that's going to help those folks?

Governor Murphy: We'll see. We have to be better at micro-transit. We have to be better at densifying routes where working folks are using them the most. 15%, I'm not making light of it, is a fraction of the $15 congestion fee that New York City is trying to put on our working families who also can't afford it, and that's a much bigger tax on them. It's horrific. That is where my big fight is right now.

Brigid Bergin: Nancy, your one takeaway from that exchange.

Nancy Solomon: He's certainly not going to back down of the fare hike. He has the ability to veto it, he's not going to. Let me add one other point of context. He is proposing a corporate transit fee, which is basically a tax on the largest, most profitable companies in New Jersey that would raise, to start, $800 million. It could go up over a billion as profits increase over the next 5-10 years.

I just thought it was interesting that he just immediately jumped on his anger about the congestion pricing toll that is going to happen in lower Manhattan for drivers of all drivers, but he cares about New Jersey drivers. The state is suing the MTA over this. It's an interesting blind spot, I would say with Phil Murphy that he wants to do something about climate change, but he hasn't done a whole lot to get people out of their cars. I think environmentalists and transportation alternatives people and tax fairness people, people who want to see good funding for the right things are all unhappy with him about this.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we are going to have to leave it there. Nancy Solomon is WNYC reporter and host of the Ask Governor Murphy monthly call-in show. Nancy, I have to tell you the number of calls and texts that we got related to the county line issue is not insignificant and a real tribute to the reporting that you've done to help our listeners understand what exactly is going on there. Kudos to you on that.

Nancy Solomon: Thank you. Thank you very much, Brigid.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.