Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We'll start today with the latest developments in the firestorm around the Trump administration dropping or trying to drop the corruption charges against Mayor Adams, and stating explicitly that it's not about his guilt or innocence, it's so he can help them with the immigration crackdown. I say trying to drop the charges because the Mayor and others are due back in court today to see if a judge will even allow that kind of arrangement.

Yesterday, Governor Hochul spoke with multiple New York City leaders, you probably heard that headline, to help her decide if she should remove Adams from office. Besides his actual legal and political fate, there may be a larger question. The backlash against dropping the corruption charges against the Mayor, it may be the most significant pushback outside of a lawsuit against the Trump administration so far on anything, as seven lawyers from the US Attorney's office and four of Adams' own deputy mayors have resigned in protest.

We'll discuss both the local and national implications, beginning with WNYC senior political reporter Brigid Bergin, and Albany reporter Jimmy Vielkind. Hi, Brigid. Hi, Jimmy.

Brigid Bergin: Morning, Brian.

Jimmy Vielkind: Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Here's something Governor Hochul said on MSNBC last Thursday, as this backlash and concern about a quid pro quo and Adams as a kind of hostage of the Trump administration, do what we want or we might restart the prosecution, began to grow. Here's what the Governor said.

Governor Hochul: I have to do what's smart, what's right, and I'm consulting with other leaders in government at this time.

Brian Lehrer: Very simple. Jimmy, the question is, yesterday, since she did just that, can you remind us who did the Governor talk to and what are some of the highlights of what she heard?

Jimmy Vielkind: Well, it was sort of a parade of prominent people going in and out of her Third Avenue office on Tuesday afternoon. She met virtually with people like Donovan Richards, he's the borough president in Queens, a Black leader who has significant overlap with Mayor Adams' most fulsome political base. Also, with the Reverend Al Sharpton. Richards' meeting was virtual, so we weren't able to speak with him, but Sharpton did stop and chat with reporters after his almost an hour with the Democratic governor in her 39th floor office.

Sharpton said that they discussed the situation, and he said that he communicated to the Governor that he has concerns about what is going on with Mayor Adams, and also that he doesn't feel comfortable with the direction of the city. At the same time, though, he's also very deeply mindful that the removal of a mayor would set a big legal precedent, one that hasn't happened in more than 200 years of the city and state's constitutional frameworks as we know them.

Brian Lehrer: Which is to say it's never happened, even though the Governor has had that power, right?

Jimmy Vielkind: That's right. It's never happened. After Sharpton, we also heard from some city officials, including City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams, and Brad Lander, the City Comptroller, who is seeking to challenge Adams in the Democratic primary in June and himself hopes that he should be the mayor.

Brian Lehrer: Before we bring in Brigid, how much is the fact that Adams is currently running for reelection playing into the Governor's deliberations, if there's any indication of that? Because one argument for the Governor not removing him is that he's up in a primary right now, that primary coming in just a few months, and the voters can decide pretty quickly.

Jimmy Vielkind: I think that that does weigh significantly in the deliberations. There have been some voices in the political center or right of the political center that have said, hey, Democrats say that they are the party that defends democracy, that stands for the rule of law. Why are you taking this extraordinary measure to remove a popularly elected official from office? I do think that Hochul is weighing that, particularly as she, not somebody who's from New York City, is examining the idea that she would remove the second Black person elected mayor in New York City's 400-year history. I do think that weighs pretty heavily.

Of course, on the other side is a concern articulated by the Governor and several other elected officials that with the resignations of top deputy mayors that occurred this week, there's real concern as to the functioning of the city and the implementation of regular services, and how city officials and employees may be cooperating with the federal government as the Trump administration pushes forward with immigration crackdowns across the country.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Brigid, I would imagine that that last thing is probably the primary concern for a lot of people. I heard Brad Lander on our air yesterday, the City Comptroller, who's also running in the primary, saying, "Look, the Mayor has to be able to not be distracted and carry out the functions of city government." Like, there's a snowstorm predicted on Thursday. I think that forecast has since been dialed back a little bit. It strikes me that, no, the sanitation department is going to be able to remove any snow, whether or not Adams is in this political mess. That the more urgent question might be, it's four months from now until the primary and how many, let's say, otherwise law-abiding, undocumented immigrants are going to be kicked out of the city, kicked out of the country, put into detention or whatever in this intervening time, right?

Brigid Bergin: Yes. To your first point, I think as you mentioned, City Comptroller Brad Lander has been raising this idea that there should be a real focus on whether or not the city can still guarantee its delivery of services. There is, of course, the argument that the machinery of government will continue to move forward and take care of the city streets, pick up your garbage, plow if there's a snowstorm, but there are other emergencies that could occur. There is rising concern related to bird flu. Obviously, there is this ongoing concern about how the Trump administration's immigration enforcement will play out on the city street, in neighborhoods near schools. Those are very real concerns shared by people who have been part of his administration.

I think there's a lot for Governor Hochul to weigh in this calculation. Yes, there's four months until the primary, but a lot of things can happen between now and then. If there is even a perception that City Hall doesn't have a leader who can stand up for New Yorkers, that can be a problem not just in terms of reelection bid, but in terms of how people feel about the way the city is operating day to day.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we invite you to weigh in. In your opinion, should the Governor or city officials, and we'll talk about how some city officials could do it as well, remove Mayor Adams from office, or should they leave it to the voters in the June primary? 212-433-WNYC, call or text us, 212-433-9692, or with any question or comment for our reporters Brigid Bergin and Jimmy Vielkind. 212-433-9692.

For his part, here's Adams, who denies all wrongdoing and also denies any quid pro quo on Sunday at the Maranatha Baptist Church in Queens.

Mayor Adams: You're going to hear so many rumors and so many things. You're going to read so much. I am going nowhere.

Congregants: All right.

Mayor Adams: Nowhere.

[applause]

Brian Lehrer: That, Brigid, obviously refers to any idea that he might voluntarily resign, and the calls for him to do that rather than leave it in the hands of the Governor or a group of city officials are growing. Who are some of the recent notable figures to call for that?

Brigid Bergin: Well, certainly, in the wake of the departure or the impending resignations of four of his deputy mayors on Monday, we heard City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams say that she thinks he should resign. State Senator Liz Krueger. There have been elected officials who have been already saying this. Members of Congress, including Congressmember Alexandria Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Nydia Velazquez, and just increasing pressure on the Mayor to really consider whether or not he has the support of members of his own party. I think it's clear that there are some very stark divisions right now.

As Jimmy was talking about, some of the most influential members of the party and elected leaders who met with the Governor yesterday were cautious in their statements when they came out of those meetings. Notably, Congressman Greg Meeks, who's also the chair of the Queens County Democrats, issued a statement that wanted to defer to the judicial process that we are going to see play out today. I think, as you mentioned, Mayor Adams is scheduled to have a court hearing related to his criminal case. That is where, potentially, the judge will decide whether or not to dismiss the charges, as the Department of Justice has requested. It was, from Meeks' perspective, important to allow this law and order to play out, that the Mayor had a right to due process. I think we will see, based on what happens today, if any of those postures continue to shift.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Marsha in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC, Marsha. Hi.

Marsha: Oh, hi. I didn't think you were taking me. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you.

Marsha: Yes. Okay, great. We have a law. It allows the Governor to remove this mayor. We have women commissioners and a deputy mayor known for their integrity and ability to work well with their New York City employee staff, saying they can't continue to work and do their jobs well. They take care of so many of the things we New Yorkers need [sound cut] [inaudible 00:11:35], from housing, to transportation, to infrastructure. Why should there even be a hesitation? Unless it has something to do with the more corrupted Democratic Party leadership of the five boroughs, of the state that's cautioning Hochul. I don't want that leadership. I want the women who have been running the city well while the Mayor has not been able to do his job, and the Governor has the legal ability to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Marsha, thank you very much. Jimmy, I'll bring you in, and then Brigid in, on different things that Marsha brought up. She accused the Democratic Party leadership of New York State of being corrupt. Are there political pressures on Hochul against the removal of the Mayor?

Jimmy Vielkind: There certainly are, and Marsha articulates the tension here quite well. On the one hand, people might remember that in the fall, when this indictment was unsealed and the question of whether Governor Hochul should move against the Mayor immediately rose, she absolutely punted. What she said at the time was, privately to Mayor Adams and then publicly in the recounting, that she wanted him to clean house. As a result, we saw the appointment of Maria Torres-Springer as first deputy mayor. We saw the empowerment of people who had been in their positions, like Meera Joshi and Anne Williams-Isom. I liked how Marsha used the phrase that I've been using as these are the women who run New York. Adams is the mayor, but these are the women who run New York along with other people in government as well, and Hochul was satisfied knowing that this team was in place and moving.

I think the reason we're having this conversation now is because of those announced resignations. That's playing, on one hand, for Governor Hochul. On the other hand are political considerations, and I can think of a few of them. I already said that Governor Hochul is a white woman from Buffalo. If you look at the electorate in a Democratic primary, Black voters from New York City, in particular from outer borough areas of Brooklyn and Queens, are a major political force. Governor Hochul knows that she is planning to run for reelection in 2026. She does not want to take any move that would potentially alienate or sour this part of her political base.

We've heard Eric Adams often speak about his role as the second Black mayor elected in New York City, and we've heard him note that the first Black mayor, the late David Dinkins, did not win a second term in 1993. Here, we're set up for a similar dynamic where we can expect Mayor Adams to play the race card in a way that could be damaging to Governor Hochul's bid later on. There's also, and I'll let Brigid talk about this, the current Democratic primary as it's shaping up, and who may benefit or not from Eric Adams removal.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid?

Brigid Bergin: Well, some of that has to do with when and if he's removed before March 26th, which becomes a key date as we consider what could happen in the next steps or after March 26th. If he were to be removed from office before March 26th, that would trigger a special election. It would be a nonpartisan special election. We know that there are candidates who would consider running for mayor who may not have opted to enter the Democratic primary fray yet. In a nonpartisan special election, everyone can vote. It's not like a primary, though it would use ranked choice voting.

There's a lot of speculation that that would fuel, potentially, former Governor Andrew Cuomo's potential mayoral bid. There are other names that are picking up some buzz. A lot of people were telling me that City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams was getting a lot of support this past weekend during the Black, Latino, Puerto Rican, Asian Caucus weekend up in Albany. She delivered this really rousing speech where by the end of it, people were cheering, "Run, Adrienne, run." Then there's also Public Advocate Jumaane Williams, who would serve as the acting mayor if the Mayor were to be removed, and while he is currently running for public advocate reelection could decide to make a switch and maybe make a bid for mayor, particularly in that special election context.

Of course, we have the whole field of Democratic candidates who have been running in the primary, Brian, that we have talked about and that you have been interviewing on this show that could upend that whole field as well. There's a lot at stake in terms of what happens and when it takes place.

Brian Lehrer: One follow-up. Because the caller, Marsha, before we go on to other callers, brought up the women who've been running the city and the fact that they resigned out of principle. I think it would be worth taking a minute or two for you to go over for our listeners who those deputy mayors are. Because unlike the Mayor, they're not household names around the city. People who follow politics will recognize some of the names. Maybe tick them off. Who are these four deputy mayors who resigned? What did they do? They were all appointed by Adams. They were his people, establish that at the outset, but did they say they were resigning because the Mayor is corrupt or the Mayor let Trump trap him in a quid pro quo? What did they say the reason for their resignation was?

Brigid Bergin: First, the deputy mayors who submitted their letters of resignation. We should note that these individuals are all still in their posts at this time. They have not left the office. They didn't resign and walk out the door. They wanted there to be a smooth transition to ensure that New Yorkers are getting those services. Among the people who submitted those resignation letters on Monday, First Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer; Deputy Mayor Meera Joshi, who is in charge of day-to-day operations and infrastructure; Deputy Mayor Anne Williams-Isom, who's been handling health and human services. She's also been a leading figure managing the migrant crisis. Then one man, Deputy Mayor Chauncey Parker, the newest deputy mayor, who is the Deputy Mayor for Public Safety.

Now notably, in their statement to their staff, three of those deputy mayors, the three women, issued a joint statement and essentially said serving the city has been one of the greatest honors and privileges of their lives, but the closest thing to nodding to the chaos that has been going on at City Hall since they have been in their posts was this quote. They wrote, "Due to the extraordinary events of the last few weeks, and to stay faithful to the oaths we swore to New Yorkers and our families, we have come to the difficult decision to step down from our roles." Certainly, I think one could interpret the extraordinary events to speak to the indictment that Mayor Adams has faced since September and everything that has happened since then.

We have seen one of the letters of resignation that Deputy Mayor Anne Williams-Isom submitted. In that letter, while she did not explicitly refer to corruption, she did talk about that she is the daughter of immigrants. That in order to be able to do her work and to stand with her family, she had reached a place where she couldn't continue to do this work. I think that particularly when you think about the appearance of Mayor Adams with Tom Homan last week on Fox & Friends, talking about the Trump administration's immigration enforcement policy, and the way that he was forced to agree to a bargain that is unclear to the rest of us New Yorkers in terms of what he has agreed to allow ICE to do in the city, is something that I think raised a lot of alarms, was something that was troubling for these deputy mayors. There were many reports about how there were conversations throughout the weekend with the deputy mayors and the Mayor raising their concerns, and that ultimately by Monday, they decided that in order for them to stay true to themselves, they needed to submit these letters of resignation.

One other thing I will note, Brian, is these deputy mayors, particularly Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer, is someone who was seen as really a stabilizing force in this administration, has a long history working in city government, worked in the Bloomberg administration, the de Blasio administration, and was someone who Governor Hochul saw as someone who could bring a little order in the wake of that other round of departures from the administration last fall right after the Mayor was indicted.

Brian Lehrer: Here are some texts that are coming in, and we're getting texts with a lot of different points of view and a lot of different points to make. One listener writes, "Why didn't Eric Adams choose instead to go on trial if he believes he's not corrupt? However, he remains arrogantly defiant. His demeanor at the Fox News interview said it all." Another person writes, "Compared to people like Menendez, this whole case has been a colossal waste of resources and time." Contrasting viewpoints there.

Someone else writes, "If I were Adams, I would have demanded a pardon or asked for the trial to continue. This puts him in an untenable position." Another person writes, "Mayor Adams is not convicted. Removing him from office will make him a martyr to many and will become the biggest issue in the primary campaign, greatly benefiting Mayor Adams." A little political analysis there that, I guess, Jimmy, is analogous to what happened to President Trump to some degree, right? He was charged with all these crimes. It made him a martyr, a political martyr to certain groups of Americans, and may have actually enhanced his chances for reelection.

Jimmy Vielkind: That's right. It's just like what my parents told me about eating broccoli, "If it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger." There is, potentially, some kind of a backlash effect. What's been interesting in watching social media posts and talking with sources across the political spectrum is that there now seems to be more sympathy for Eric Adams in more conservative corners of our polity. They mention Trump. They talk about prosecutions. There are many people who had raised their eyebrows at what they perceived as a lack of strength in the initial indictment handed up last fall. Brigid and I and other reporters heard and read filings that alluded to additional charges to come to a superseding indictment. That never materialized.

You're exactly right, Brian, that this does parallel Donald Trump's experience with prosecutors. Indeed, we heard Donald Trump say that he empathized with Eric Adams because of his own experience dealing with multiple prosecutions, only one of which resulted, in the state of New York, in a conviction before Trump was elected to a second term last year.

Brian Lehrer: When we come back from a one-minute break, we'll talk to a caller from Manhattan who's a supporter of Eric Adams right now. Then we'll also get into what's going on in court today or what's going to go on in court because it looks like a judge is going to decide whether this whole arrangement with the Trump administration is corrupt, is a quid pro quo. Will the judge even allow the Trump administration to drop the charges? We'll get into that. Tina in Manhattan, you're next on the phones. Stay with us.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we continue to talk about the latest developments in the firestorm around the Trump administration dropping or trying to drop the corruption charges against Mayor Adams, and stating explicitly that it's not about his guilt or innocence. It's so he can help them with the immigration crackdown. We're talking about whether Governor Hochul should remove him, whether a group of city officials should remove him, as apparently they can do under the city charter. Should he resign?

Tina in Manhattan is calling in support, I believe, of Mayor Adams. Tina, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Tina: Yes, thank you for taking my call. I support Mayor Adams. I think the city has been better since he's been our mayor. The city is cleaner, there's more police on the subways, many fewer rats on the street. When the Southern District dismisses a case, of course they're going to say that they think that the case was strong. You always have that in criminal cases, but the fact that-- we don't know what the judge is going to do today, but the fact that the case was dismissed, that he wasn't found guilty, that they never superseded the indictment, and he was elected by the people of New York, he should stay in office, and let's see what happens when he runs for reelection.

Brian Lehrer: Does it bother you at all that the Trump administration stated that the reason they were dropping the charges weren't because the new Justice Department officials determined that he was innocent, but rather so he could help them with their policy goals on immigration?

Tina: The new Justice Department will never determine that someone is innocent when they bring a case against someone. I have seen no quid pro quo coming from the Adams' camp. It doesn't bother me at all. I thank you for taking my call. I'm a criminal defense attorney, so I have an inside view about what happens in these cases.

Brian Lehrer: Tina, thank you very much. To one of her points, Brigid. The Mayor would argue, I believe, and other supporters of his would argue that he's always held positions on immigration enforcement that were consistent with what Trump is now trying to do. He always said Mayor de Blasio went too far with his version of sanctuary city policies and that there was more crime as a result, and he's been aligned anyway with what Trump wants to do. Is the quid pro quo on immigration, even if it's real, just something that's on paper because he wants to do these things anyway as what he thinks is right for the city?

Brigid Bergin: I think that it is true that the Mayor's positions on immigration have been certainly to the right of his predecessor, Bill de Blasio. I think the question that's in the minds of a lot of other elected officials and of some New Yorkers and particularly, New Yorkers in immigrant communities, is what exactly has he agreed to? How far does it go?

We've seen some signals, we've seen some shifts, certainly new changes at Rikers Island in terms of returning an ICE office there through executive order, but what else is coming? I think that question is something that we're not getting any answers from the Mayor. The Mayor has not spoken about certainly any of these policy decisions as this protracted back and forth has played out between his attorneys and the Justice Department. He hasn't held-- This time that we're talking to you now, Brian, is the time that normally our colleague, Liz Kim, would be here breaking down the Mayor's off-topic press conference. Well, he hasn't had one of those in two weeks now.

I think there's a real question about what is it the Mayor is willing to do, and what will be the line for him in terms of saying, "No, that is not something that I'll allow in my city," and I think people really don't understand where that line is at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Jordana in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jordana.

Jordana: Oh, hello. Hi. Alexa, turn off. First of all, I would love it if you were the mayor.

Brian Lehrer: I am not running, nor will I serve if I'm elected, but go ahead. I'm kidding. Go ahead. I mean, I'm not kidding. I'm not running for mayor.

Jordana: [chuckles] All right. I would like to start calling Eric Adams, "Eric quid pro quo Adams," because he has so obviously sold out. I don't see what kind of grotesque farce we're living that we can sustain our government this way. It's time for the Democratic Party to stand up for government and not being a corrupt government. I would love to see-- I'm just so curious about what would happen- if he was removed, what would happen to his case with the DOJ and resume his work. Because I feel like he's holding on for dear life and doing whatever corrupt, craven thing he needs to do to hold power just to not be prosecuted.

Brian Lehrer: Very different perspective from the last caller. Jordana, thank you very much. Jimmy, can you describe what is happening or about to happen in court? Is a judge hearing kind of two arguments from the same side, from Adams' lawyers and from the new Justice Department lawyers, and then the judge is going to have to decide, is this whole arrangement of dropping the charges legal? Is it corrupt? Should he even let the Justice Department drop the charges? Is that where we are today?

Jimmy Vielkind: It's something of an extraordinary hearing in that this is very much not a normal part of the criminal process. Generally, judges' hands are tied, especially when, as you just said, Brian, the parties before them are kind of aligned in their thinking. The Justice Department says we want to drop the charges, and Adams' team says that's great, please do. What Judge Ho has said is that he wants to hear arguments, and he really wants to hear the parties on the record in response to some of the concerns that were raised by acting US Attorney Danielle Sassoon in the letter she sent to Department officials in Washington, DC upon her resignation from office. That is where the suggestion and the allegation that Adams' team pushed for the charges to be dropped in exchange for him helping the administration came crystal clear or was crystallized.

Sassoon said in her letter that this amounted to a "bargain" that she was very concerned about. Of course, Adams and his attorneys have both denied any such quid pro quo, denied any such exchange. We have to see what Judge Ho will do. Again, many lawyers and legal experts say that his hands are pretty tied in this matter, but I don't think that there is a perfectly clear precedent that would prescribe his exact actions. That's why I think a lot of people, including Governor Hochul, including Reverend Sharpton and other prominent political folks who met with the Governor earlier this week, are all watching to see what happens in Lower Manhattan this afternoon.

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting. Brigid, could you explain for our listeners briefly this other mechanism for removing the Mayor from office? There's been so much discussion about the Governor's power to do that, but apparently a group of city officials could get together and do that under provisions of the city charter?

Brigid Bergin: Well, that is the argument that City Comptroller Brad Lander is laying out and also spoke with the Governor about yesterday. There is a provision in the city charter that refers to a "inability committee" that could be established to remove a mayor. Now the origins of the inability committee date back to the '87 Charter Revision Commission. There was a provision added to the city charter shortly after then Mayor Ed Koch had had a minor stroke, and it was unclear what was going to be the mechanism to deal with that at that time. It's really premised on this idea that someone would have a medical issue, that they would be physically or mentally incapable of doing this work.

However, the argument that the Comptroller made was that if the Mayor is so hamstrung from the ability to do his job, if he's not responding to requests, if he's not responding to New Yorkers, well, then potentially that makes him unable to do this work. Specifically, he cited the departure of those- or the pending departure of those deputy mayors. If that starts to hinder the city's ability to provide services, well, then potentially this inability committee would need to be called together and consider how to move forward.

The committee itself would be made up of five members, including the city's Corporation Counsel, the City Council Speaker, the longest serving borough president, who we name-checked earlier, Queensborough President Donovan Richards, would be that. Then a deputy mayor of the Mayor's choosing, and it's unclear who that would be, certainly because four of them are on their way out.

What would then happen is you would need four of those five members to agree that, yes, the Mayor is unable to serve. They would have to send their certification to the Mayor himself. He would have 48 hours to respond. Then it would actually go to the City Council, who under the charter would be called the Panel for Mayoral Inability. Then the Council would be required to hold a vote within 21 days, two-thirds would be needed for it to pass, and that could potentially result in his removal.

Now I spoke to lawyers yesterday who took differing opinions on whether or not this particular mechanism could be applied in this case. There were some who said absolutely not, that that is not what-- the origins of this provision are this was really intended to be much more like the 25th Amendment, if the person was physically incapable of serving. Others said, given the framework that the Comptroller has laid out, potentially there is an argument to be made that this would be a potential option.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like if city officials did try to pull that trigger, it would probably wind up in court.

Brigid Bergin: Most definitely. Many of these mechanisms-- Even, I think, there are questions around what would happen if the Governor moved forward because these are not things that have been tested before. As we know, as you are making law, it is often in the court where you test what the boundaries are.

Brian Lehrer: Last two texts that I'll read from listeners out of the two billion that have come in in the last half hour. One says, "There's a larger issue here. If any replacement mayor adopts the de Blasio approach and fully resists every Trump initiative, that could cost the city in terms of federal funding." Listener adds, "I am not a Trump supporter, but have that concern." Here's a question, Brigid, for you from a listener. "If Mayor Adams is removed from office, can he still run for reelection?"

Brigid Bergin: I think the answer- and I want to preface this by saying I have to confirm this, but I think the answer to that is yes, that he could be removed and then potentially run for office. The only provision under state law that would prevent him from running for office falls under the public officers law, and that relates to whether he's been convicted of a crime, which in this case we haven't gone through the whole criminal trial yet.

Jimmy, feel free to jump in and fact-check me if you have a differing opinion.

Jimmy Vielkind: I don't know what the brass tacks of the law are. I think you just said it very well, Brigid, that we are in uncharted territory, and that litigation is going to be happening no matter what kind of removal course takes place, if one were, in fact, to take place. We have seen in New York politics several instances where people have been ousted from office as a result of criminal convictions, and then they have run again and secured their seats. F. Scott Fitzgerald said there were no second acts in American lives, but in New York politics, voters tend to be forgiving, and we could see if Mayor Adams brings that to a new level.

Brian Lehrer: 100 years after The Great Gatsby, here we are quoting F. Scott Fitzgerald. Jimmy, last question. When is Governor Hochul expected to make her decision about whether to remove the Mayor?

Jimmy Vielkind: Brian, that's a great question that I will be asking people about in the days, hours, and weeks ahead. The short answer is we don't know. There is no prescribed timeline. The Governor was urged yesterday by the leaders she met with to wait and to see what the results are of Judge Ho's decision, but this could stretch on for a matter of days or it could stretch on for a matter of weeks. We just don't know, and we're going to have to stay tuned.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC and Gothamist's, Brigid Bergin and Jimmy Vielkind, thank you both.

Brigid Bergin: Thanks, Brian.

Jimmy Vielkind: Thanks, Brian.

 

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