Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today, we have a special edition of our show, listening in on the confirmation hearing for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to be Secretary of Health and Human Services. His confirmation is definitely not guaranteed according to news organizations doing Senate headcounts. HHS, so you have some background, has an annual budget of more than a trillion dollars. It includes the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Front and center, obviously, will be Kennedy's decades long campaign against vaccines and the implications for children's health, which has been very much in the news, but also, their parents and grandparents' health depending on if and how Kennedy changes things. As NPR's Morning Edition reminded us today, Kennedy compared the COVID vaccine mandate to Nazi Germany, even though if I may say, the mandate was intended to prevent mass death, while the Holocaust was, of course, imposed to cause mass death. Interestingly, Kennedy has opposition on the right as well as the left.

Mike Pence's current advocacy group is recommending senators vote no, because of Kennedy's support for abortion rights, there is reporting, and I assume he'll be asked about this, that he's made a deal with Trump not to speak about his position on abortion rights or push them in any way through HHS policy. We'll see if he's asked about that. The Rupert Murdoch newspapers, The Wall Street Journal and New York Post have also come out against confirmation. The Post, for example, says Kennedy is "still a radical left lunatic," which Trump once called him last year on Truth Social.

The New York Post says, "Kennedy led the campaign to shut down the Indian Point nuclear facility in New York, thinking it could all be replaced by green energy. Yet, hypocrite that he is, he opposed a wind farm off the coast of Cape Cod. Wouldn't want to spoil the views from the Kennedy compound," writes The Post. They also quote Trump from last year saying, "I lived with RFK Jr. in New York and watched him convince Governor Cuomo to make environmental moves that were outright nasty. Upstate New York was not allowed to drill or frack as Ohio, Pennsylvania, and others ripped off New York energy."

That's how Trump put it when Kennedy was running to oppose him. It's true, Governor Cuomo did impose a fracking ban in the state. For those of you who don't know, not sure what role RFK Jr. played in that. Also, The Post does support the importance of vaccines and distrusts how RFK would mess with them. The Post has this extraordinary vaccine-related video clip.

I'll play a minute of the audio of RFK at a dinner in 2023, attended and recorded by The Post, in which Kennedy gives credence to a conspiracy theory that COVID-19 may have been an ethnically targeted bioweapon aimed at infecting Black people and white people and to spare Chinese people and Ashkenazi Jews. Now, the audio is not fabulous on this restaurant table recording, but listen closely, and you'll probably get all the words. This runs one minute.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The technology that we now have all to develop these microbes. We've put hundreds of millions of dollars into ethnically targeted microbes. The Chinese have done the same thing. In fact, COVID-19, there's an argument that it is ethnically targeted. COVID-19 attacks certain races disproportionately. The races that are most immune to COVID-19 are, because of the structure of the genetic structure, genetic differentials among different races. Of the receptors of the ACE2 receptor, COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.

Brian Lehrer: There you go. I hope you were able to make that out. He goes on to say he's not sure if it was deliberate, but he's elevating this conspiracy theory that because China, like the US, is engaging in bioweapon research, it's very possible that COVID-19 was that targeting white people and Black people, sparing Chinese people and Ashkenazi Jews. Another thing that the senators will have to contend with, the very pointed takedown of RFK. Did you hear about this yet?

In a new letter from Caroline Kennedy to the heads of the two committees that will be holding RFK confirmation hearings, the Finance Committee today, that's what we'll be listening to, and the Health Committee tomorrow. Caroline Kennedy is the surviving child of President John F. Kennedy. For those of you who don't know, she has historically been very private in her life when it comes to RFK, her first cousin, or anything else relating to her famous family. Caroline Kennedy is 67 now. Here's a little bit of her letter. I'm just going to read a few lines.

This prints at two very tightly, very small print pages. She writes, "I have known Bobby my whole life. We grew up together. It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets because he himself is a predator." Wow, right? Even to just that. Then she goes on to back it up. It says, "Bobby preys on the desperation of parents of sick children, vaccinating his own children while building a following by hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs. Even before he fills this job, his constant denigration of our healthcare system and the conspiratorial half-truths, he has sold about vaccines, including in connection with Samoa's deadly 2019 measles outbreak."

We'll ask our guest to explain that outbreak and his connection to it have cost lives. Caroline Kennedy's letter continues. Now, we know that Bobby's crusade against vaccination has benefited him in other ways, too. They have to file an ethics report in conjunction with a nomination. His ethics report makes clear that he will keep his financial stake in a lawsuit against an HPV vaccine. We haven't heard much about Kennedy and the HPV vaccine. Usually, it's been others, but HPV vaccines too, she goes on.

"In other words, he is willing to enrich himself by denying access to a vaccine that can prevent almost all forms of cervical cancer and which has been safely administered to millions of boys and girls." All of that and actually much more from Caroline Kennedy. If the senators rise to the occasion, it should be very interesting and illuminating morning. As I said from the headcount reporting I've seen, his confirmation is not guaranteed.

With us now to further help preview what's about to happen and who will ride along with me for some analysis along the way is Dr. Daniel Griffin, MD, PhD, Chief of Infectious Disease Medicine for Island Infectious Diseases, the largest physician owned infectious disease specialist group on Long Island. Also, a clinical instructor of medicine at Columbia University, president of the group Parasites Without Borders, which sounds like a bad thing, but it's really a good thing, and co-host of the podcast, This Week in Virology.

Dr. Griffin, some of you may remember, was with us frequently for information and advice during the height of the pandemic and we're grateful that he's returning today for this. Dr. Griffin, hi and welcome back to WNYC.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Well, hello, everyone, and Brian, thank you for having me back. I'm looking forward to the next couple hours listening to the confirmation with you and our listeners.

Brian Lehrer: Indeed, thank you for joining us again. Can I ask you to explain something from the Caroline Kennedy letter first? We have talked about it on this show before, but I think most of the people are not familiar with it who are listening. This reference to a deadly measles outbreak in Samoa in 2019. Are you familiar as an infectious disease specialist with what happened there?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Certainly. Let me share a little bit with our listeners. It really was a tragedy. I think as we listen today, it's important to understand the context, like who is this, that is answering questions, what has this person done in the past? There was a tragedy in Samoa where nurses made a mistake. When they reconstituted a vaccine, they actually, instead of adding the saline that you would normally add to the powdered vaccine, they actually added a muscle relaxant, basically a paralytic. Because of this nursing error, you ended up with two children dying from this mistake.

RFK Jr. swoops in, with his wife, gets connected with an anti-vaccine person, and really uses this, unfortunately, as an opportunity to spread misinformation, to create mistrust. Unfortunately, to this island, a visitor comes who is infectious with measles, leads to a huge outbreak of measles, end up with dozens of people, mostly children, actually dying as a result. They do kick him out eventually, but really tragic. I think that this is what we're worried about, that this misinformation undermining trust in vaccines, really promoting an agenda that has actually enriched RFK Jr. to pretty considerable point is what he may use this HHS platform to promote going forward.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious if you happen to know and Samoa does not have a seat in the United States Senate, but whether he, Kennedy, for his role in that, in promoting the idea of not getting your kids vaccinated for measles and then there were all those deaths, is seen as a villain in Samoa today because of that or for that matter, if vaccine hesitancy has persisted.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes. There certainly are a number of people who view him as a villain. I think they've been very vocal. When you have dozens of children dying, it's hard to think that the person who did that was innocent. Unfortunately, once you start putting these seeds out there, if you start saying things enough and you notice the way RFK words things, it's that some people say it's been suggested. He says it in a way that leaves open a little wiggle room.

Brian Lehrer: Let me throw in. That was exactly what we heard in that clip about him elevating the idea that COVID-19 may have been a bioweapon developed with certain ethnic targets by the Chinese government. He said he didn't know, but he said, there's an argument that, and then he went on to spend that minute laying out the argument. A little more than that minute, there was more in that part of his dinner that we didn't play the whole thing of. That's exactly an example of that.

He said, "I don't know if this was happening, but there is an argument that says," so people start to think that a virus may have been developed as a bioweapon with certain ethnic groups in mind.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes, so that's exactly right. Hopefully, our listeners will be watching that when he's before Senate. Just the way he kind of avoids actually answering the question. There's an argument. Every time you bring up and give air to these conspiracy theories, another parent Googles, another parent is concerned, and unfortunately, another child can eventually be vulnerable to these preventable diseases. When a child dies, when a child is paralyzed, there's a responsibility.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of people have texted already asking to explain how RFK makes money and financially benefits from his anti-vaccine campaign, as Caroline Kennedy charged in that letter. I think the simple answer, I don't know if you have anything to add to this, Dr. Griffin, but the simple answer, and she did lay it out in the letter, is that he has been a lawyer who has been paid to file anti-vax related lawsuits. In fact, according to the way she laid it out, we'll hear if he disputes it.

He has said that he will not give up his financial stake in a current lawsuit against one of the pharmaceutical companies. I think it's Merck. He stands to benefit in that way. Anything to add to that?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes, Brian, I mean that is one side. The other, which I think as people have looked more into this, is that his association with the different nonprofits, where he claims to have gotten no money, but well, okay, $1.2 million, maybe that came his way, which maybe for him is not a lot of money, a rounding error. For most of us, that's a huge amount of money.

Brian Lehrer: Before we go to the hearing, the two heads of the committee, the Republican and Democratic heads, are giving opening statements. We're going to pick it up from RFK's opening statement which follows the two senators and then listening to questioning by various senators. Are there any particular senators that you're especially keen to hear from? Like, I'll be interested in Bernie Sanders for one, who's been supportive of RFK on some of his environmental and corporate processed food industry positions, to hear how multi-issue Bernie Sanders might become.

Some people say Sanders might even be a yes vote for RFK. I'd be very surprised, but I've heard people say that. Also, Bill Cassidy from Louisiana, Republican, who's an MD. Any particular senators who you'll be most interested to hear from?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Well, I think Cassidy certainly that I'll be interesting to see. How does someone who took an oath deal with RFK? Just the potential threat, like if he's given this opportunity, how does that impact someone who took an oath actually. I think we know Elizabeth Warren. A number of us have read her really pretty lengthy 20-plus page letter, I think it is. Yes, Bernie Sanders. I'm very curious about Bernie Sanders. I think this sort of brings out RFK's history. RFK previously was viewed as very libertarian.

"Women should have the right to end a pregnancy. I don't care if it's the day before they're about to deliver," is what he said in the past last year that kind of spun around. His anti-oil really questions where does he fit in with the Trump agenda. Yes, I am curious to see how he balances his history and his historic ideas that really have been more Bernie Sanders adjacent than adjacent to our current president.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener chimes in, in a text about how RFK makes money on this. "He gets a headhunter fee to refer people who claim vaccine harm to lawyers representing them." We'd have to confirm that that's exactly what happens, but a listener wrote that. Just reading that. Another listener, kind of supportive of RFK says, "He's really not a vax denier or anti-vax. He's vax critical as we all should be because science is about being critical and questioning." Don't you think that's how the listener wrote it? How would you answer that listener?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: I think that's great that we bring that up right now because that's how he's tried to recast himself. I want science, I want us to do more research. That certainly is what we're hearing in the last few months as RFK tries to remold himself to fit into potentially this new situation. Historically, he has said he does not view any vaccine as safe. He has spent 20 years basically saying, "I think that we should really get vaccines off the market. Remove people's opportunity, should they choose to have vaccines?"

I understand the libertarian, let's look at mandates more closely. No, he spent 20 years trying to take away our ability to access vaccines, to undermine a system that allows American children, American adults to actually get vaccinated. I think that's something, as we've seen in the last week, things can very quickly change. His skepticism, his wanting more science, does that end up with a 45-day pause, a six-month pause on our ability to access vaccines? Because during that period of time, we'll see deaths, we'll see paralysis, we'll see really negative impact.

I think we need to be careful and really ask, is he being sincere when he says he's just skeptical? Everyone in medicine, we're always, that's how we're trained. We want to be critical. We don't just put anything in our bodies or recommend anything to our patients and our children. The track record really has not just been skepticism. It's been a man who makes money and who's made a living off trying to away access to safe and effective vaccines.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and we're just about ready to go to the hearing. Just tell us one other thing that a lot of listeners may be wondering and might relate to something that RFK Jr. will say in this hearing, that he wouldn't take away people's right to have vaccines voluntarily. We may hear that he might make it HHS policy to disincentivize schools or even maybe ban schools if he has the power to do that, or if he can get Congress to do that, ban schools from requiring childhood vaccination, except in the case of medical exemptions for various reasons or religious exemptions to enter school with other little kids.

People may think, well, maybe that's fair, maybe that's a matter of letting everybody who wants to be vaccinated be vaccinated. If those other families want to take that risk, that's on them. It doesn't hurt me or my kids. Is that true or false?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Unfortunately, that's false. That's one of the challenges with vaccines. We, as a community, need to come together. We need to get those vaccination rates up to a certain level. If they're not at a certain level, then we see these outbreaks. Our vaccines are not 100%. It's not as though your child got the mumps vaccine, and now, they don't have to worry if there's a big outbreak, if there's lots of exposure. We see breakthrough. Our vaccines work when we all participate in this social contract. That's why we do this. This is not interesting historically.

A lot of this came from Republicans, a lot of it came from Democrats. This is bipartisan. People wanting to have a healthy country, wanting to feel it's safe to send your child to school. A lot of this misinformation, this concept that the vaccine, it's only about you and it should be an individual decision. Unfortunately, an unvaccinated person with measles is going to, on average, infect 20 other people, where a vaccinated person, you probably need 20 vaccinated people who get exposed before they're going to be seeing even one case of onward transmission.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Daniel Griffin, infectious disease specialist who practices on Long Island and also teaches at Columbia University, is going to ride along with us as we listen to stretches of the hearing, and we'll figure out where the brakes are to do some analysis of what we're hearing. Daniel, Dr. Griffin, thanks again for doing this. We'll talk to you later in the show.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Sounds great. Please feel free to call me Daniel.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll take a break and then we'll go to the hearing. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC Special Edition today, as we listen in on the RFK Jr. confirmation hearing to be HHS secretary in the Senate Finance Committee. We're a few minutes behind real time. We're going to pick it up, where Kennedy begins the content of his opening statement. Then what will happen after that is questions from the Finance Committee Chairman, Senator Mike Crapo of Idaho, and then the Ranking Democrat, Ron Wyden of Washington. Here is Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Crapo, Ranking Member Wyden, and members of this distinguished committee, I'm humbled to be sitting here today as President Trump's nominee oversee the US Department of Health and Human Services. I want to thank President Trump for entrusting me to deliver on his promise to make America healthy again. I also want to thank Cheryl, Kick, Bobby, and all of my other children who are here today and all the many members of my large extended family for the love that they have so generously shared.

Ours has always been a family that has been involved in public service, and I look forward to continuing that tradition. My journey into the issue of health began with my career as an environmental attorney, working with hunters and fishermen and mothers in a small town in the Hudson Valley and along the Hudson River. I learned very early on that human health and environmental injuries are intertwined. The same chemicals that kill fish make people sick. Also, today, Americans overall health is in grievous condition. Over 70% of adults and a third of children are overweight or obese.

Diabetes is 10 times more prevalent than it was during the 1960s. Cancer among young people is rising by 1% or 2% a year. Autoimmune diseases, neurodevelopmental disorders, Alzheimer's, asthma, ADHD, depression, addiction, and a host of other physical and mental health conditions are all on the rise, some of the them exponentially. The United States has worse health than any other developed nation, yet we spend more on health care at least double and in some cases, triple, as other countries. Last year, we spent $4.8 trillion, not counting the indirect cost of missed work. That's almost a fifth of GDP.

It's tantamount to a 20% tax on the entire economy. No wonder America has trouble competing with countries that pay a third of what we do for health and have better outcomes and a healthier workforce. I don't want to make this too much about money. It's the human tragedy that moves us to care. President Trump has promised to restore America's global strength and to restore the American dream, but he understands that we can't be a strong nation when our people are so sick. A healthy person has a thousand dreams. A sick person has only one.

Today, over half of our countrymen and women are chronically ill. When I met with President Trump last summer, I discovered that he has more than just concern for this tragic situation, but genuine care. President Trump is committed to restoring the American dream, and 77 million Americans delivered a mandate to him to do just that, due in part to the embrace and elevation of the Make America Healthy Again movement. This movement led largely by MAHA moms from every state. You can see many of them behind us today and in the hallways and in the lobbies, is one of the most transcendent and powerful movements I've ever seen.

I promise President Trump that if confirmed, I will do everything in my power to put the health of Americans back on track. I've been greatly heartened to discover a deep level of care among members of this committee, too, both Democrats and Republicans. I came away from our conversations confident that we can put aside our divisions for the sake of a healthier America. For a long time, the nation has been locked in a divisive health care debate about who pays when health care costs reach 20%. There are no good options, only bad ones.

Shifting the burden around between government, corporations, insurers, providers, and families is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Our country will sink beneath a sea of desperation and debt if we don't change the course and ask, why are health care costs so high in the first place? The obvious answer is chronic disease. The CDC says 90% of health care spending goes toward managing chronic disease, which hits lower income Americans the hardest. The President's pledge is not to make some Americans happy again, healthy again, but to make all of our people healthy again.

There is no single culprit in chronic disease. Much as I have criticized certain industries and agencies, President Trump and I understand that most of their scientists and experts genuinely care about American health. Therefore, we will bring together all stakeholders in pursuit of this unifying goal. Before I conclude, I want to make sure the committee is clear about a few things. News reports have claimed that I am anti-vaccine or anti-industry. I am neither.

Protester: You are.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I am pro-safety.

Protester: [unintelligible 00:28:20]

[background noise]

[applause]

Brian Lehrer: There's a protest breaking out in the gallery.

Chairman Crapo: Please proceed, Mr. Kennedy.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I am pro-safety. I worked for years to raise awareness about the mercury and toxic chemicals and fish, and nobody called me any fish. I believe that the vaccines play a critical role in health care. All of my kids are vaccinated. I've written many books on vaccines. My first book in 2014, the first line of it is, I am not anti-vaccine, and the last line is, I am not anti-vaccine. Or am I the enemy of food producers? American farms are the bedrock of our culture, of our politics, of our national security. I was a 4-H kid, and I spent my summer working on ranches.

I went to work with our farmers. I want to work with our farmers and food producers to remove burdensome regulations and unleash American ingenuity. I simply cannot succeed without a partnership, a full partnership of American farmers. In my advocacy, I've often disturbed the status quo by asking uncomfortable questions. Well, I'm not going to apologize for that. We have massive health problems in this country that we must face honestly. The first thing I've done every morning for the past 20 years is to get on my knees and pray to God that he would put me in a position to end the chronic disease epidemic and to help America's children.

That's why I'm so grateful to President Trump for the opportunity to sit before you today and seek your support and partnership in this endeavor. I will conclude with a promise. The members of this committee, to the President, and to all the tens of billions of parents across America, especially the moms, propelled this issue to center stage. Should I be so privileged as to be confirmed? We will make sure our tax dollars support healthy foods. We will scrutinize the chemical additives in our food supply. We will remove financial conflicts of interest from our agencies.

We will create an honest, unbiased, gold standard science at HHS, accountable to the President, to Congress, and to the American people. We will reverse the chronic disease epidemic and put the nation back on the road to good health. Thank you.

Chairman Crapo: Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kennedy, I will begin. Each of us will have five minutes to ask you questions, and then at the conclusion of the hearing if there are further questions, there will be an opportunity for those questions to be submitted to you.

Brian Lehrer: This is the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Mike Crapo of Idaho.

Chairman Crapo: I ask that you respond to them promptly. Mr. Kennedy, you have emphasized the importance of nutrition in preventing and managing chronic disease, improving health outcomes and reducing health costs. I share your interest in the relationship between our diet and our well-being.

Brian Lehrer: Correction. They're starting with the Ranking Democrat. This is Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat from Washington.

Chairman Crapo: If confirmed, I look forward to partnering with you on those efforts. Would you share with the committee why you are passionate about the nutrition-oriented disease prevention and what you have learned?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I had 11 brothers and sisters. I had dozens of first cousins. I was raised in a time where we did not have a chronic disease epidemic. My uncle was president. 2% of American kids had chronic disease. Today, 66% have chronic disease. We spent zero on chronic disease during the Kennedy administration. Today, we spend $4.3 trillion a year. 77% of our kids cannot qualify for military service. When I was a kid, the typical pediatrician would see one case of diabetes in his or her lifetime, 40 or 50-year career.

A one out of every three kids who walks through her office door is diabetic or pre-diabetic. The most recent data from NIH shows 38% of teens are diabetic or pre-diabetic. Autism rates have gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 1,500 depending on what studies you look at. In my generation today, 70-year-old men, 1 in 34 in my kid's generation, we've seen this explosion of autoimmune disease, of allergic diseases. This is not just a economic issue. It's not just a national security issue. It is a spiritual issue and it is a moral issue.

We cannot live up to our role as an exemplary nation, as a moral authority around the world, and we're writing off an entire generation of kids.

Chairman Crapo: Thank you very much. If confirmed, how could we work together to integrate nutrition-based interventions into our health care programs, like Medicaid and Medicare?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Well, there are many ways that we can do that. A federal funding of the SNAP program, for example, and a school-lunch program-

Brian Lehrer: I apologize, folks. One more correction. This is Senate Finance Committee Chairman Crapo asking these questions.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: -could be a driver for helping kids. We shouldn't be giving 60% of the kids in school processed food that is making them sick. We shouldn't be spending 10% of the SNAP program on sugar drinks. We have a direct ability to change things there. Also, in Medicaid and Medicare, we need to focus more on outcome-based medicine, on putting people in charge of their own health care, making them accountable for their own health care so they understand the relationship between eating and getting sick.

Most importantly, we need to deploy NIH and FDA to doing the research to understand the relationship between these different food additives and chronic disease, so that Americans understand it and make sure that Americans are aware, but I don't want to take food away from anybody. If you like a McDonald's cheeseburger, a Diet Coke, which my boss loves, you should be able to get them. If you want to eat Hostess Twinkies, you should be able to do that, but you should know what the impacts are on your family and on your health.

Chairman Crapo: Thank you. Senator Wyden.

Ranking Member Wyden: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Before I begin my questions, I'd like to start by entering into the record a letter the committee received from Ambassador Caroline Kennedy outlining what she believes as Mr. Kennedy's lack of personal fitness for the office.

Chairman Crapo: Without objection.

Ranking Member Wyden: Mr. Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines. You say one thing and then you say another. In your testimony today, under oath, you denied that you were anti-vaccine, but during a podcast interview in July of 2023, you said, "No vaccine is safe and effective." In your testimony today, in order to prove you're not anti-vax, you note that all your kids are vaccinated, but in a podcast in 2020, you said, and I quote, you would do anything, pay anything to go back in time and not vaccinate your kids.

Mr. Kennedy, all of these things cannot be true. Are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro-vaccine or did you lie on all those podcasts? We have all of this on tape, by the way.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, as you know, because it's been repeatedly debunked. That statement that I made on the Lex Fridman Podcast was a fragment of the statement. He asked me, and anybody who actually goes and looks at that podcast. Well, see this, he asked me, "Are there vaccines that are safe and effective?" I said to him, "Some of the live virus vaccines are." I said, "There are no vaccines that are safe and effective." I was going to continue for every person, every medicine has people who are sensitive to them, including vaccines.

Ranking Member Wyden: All right, so--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: He interrupted me at that point. I've corrected it many times, including on national TV. You know about this, Senator Wyden, so bringing this up right now is dishonest.

Ranking Member Wyden: Let's be clear about what you've actually done then, since you want to deny your statements. For example, you have a history of trying to take vaccines away from people. In May of 2021, you petitioned the Food and Drug Administration to not only block Americans from having access to the COVID vaccine, but to prevent any future access to the life-saving vaccine. Are you denying that? Your name is on the petition.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: We brought that petition after CDC recommended COVID vaccine without any scientific basis or six-year-old children. Most experts agree today, even the people who did it back then that COVID vaccines are inappropriate for six-year-old children who basically have a zero risk on COVID. That's why I brought that lawsuit. I don't want to-- I want to emphasize that--

Ranking Member Wyden: Mr. Kennedy, the facts--

[background noise]

Brian Lehrer: Again, a protest from the gallery. There's Democratic Senator Ron Wyden, Ranking Democrat on the Finance Committee, representing Oregon, continues his question.

Chairman Crapo: To the audience, comments from the audience are inappropriate and out of order. If there are any further disruptions, the committee will recess until the police can restore order. Please follow the rules of the committee. Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I also want to point out that your recitation of what happened in Samoa is absolutely wrong. You know it's wrong.

Ranking Member Wyden: We'll get to that in a moment. Right now, we're talking about the petition that you filed to block Americans from having access to the vaccine and to prevent any future access to the vaccine. Those facts are on the record. My third question to you is, you made almost $5 million from book deals, mostly promoting junk science. In 2021, in a book called The Measles Book, you wrote that parents have been "misled into believing that measles is a deadly disease and that measles vaccines are necessary, safe, and effective."

The reality is measles are in fact deadly and highly contagious. Something that you should have learned after your lives contributed to the deaths of 83 people, most of them children in a measles outbreak in Samoa. My question here is, Mr. Kennedy, is measles deadly? Yes, or no?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The death rate from measles, historically in this country, in 1963, the year before the introduction to the vaccine, was 1 in 10,000. Let me explain what happened in Samoa. In Samoa, in 2017 or 2015, there were two kids who died following the MMR vaccine. The vaccination rates in Samoa dropped precipitously from about 63% to the mid-30s, so they've never been very high. In 2018, two more kids died following the MMR vaccine and the government in Samoa banned the MMR vaccine. I arrived a year later when vaccination rates were already below any previous level.

I went there. Nothing to do with vaccines. I went there to introduce a medical informatic system that would digitalize records in Samoa and make health delivery much more efficient. I never gave any public statement about vaccines. You cannot find a single Samoan who will say, "I didn't get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy." I went in June of 2019. The measles outbreak started in August. Clearly, I had nothing to do with the measles. Not only that. Senator, not only that--

Ranking Member Wyden: Mr. Kennedy, my time--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: If you let me finish.

Ranking Member Wyden: You have had some time and I'm going to respond.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: If you let me finish, Senator. If you let me finish. 83 people died when the tissue samples were sent to New Zealand. Most of those people did not have measles. We don't know what was killing them. The same outbreak occurred in Tonga and Fiji, and no extra people died. There were seven measles outbreaks in the 13 years prior to my arrival.

Ranking Member Wyden: Mr. Chairman, I would like to get my time back. The nominee wrote a book saying that people had been misled into believing that measles is a deadly disease. He's trying now to play down his role in Samoa. That's not what the parents say. That's not what Governor Green says. It's time to make sure that we blow the whistle on actually what your views are. At least we're starting.

Chairman Crapo: We need to move on.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, I support the measles vaccine. I support the polio vaccine. I will do nothing as HHS secretary. It makes it difficult or discourages people from taking those vaccines.

Ranking Member Wyden: Anybody who believes that ought to look at The Measles Book you wrote saying parents have been misled into believing that measles is a deadly disease. That's not true.

Chairman Crapo: We need to move on. Senator Grassley.

Senator Grassley: Welcome. I'm going to do, like I did in my office, I'm going to-

Brian Lehrer: Republican Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa.

Senator Grassley: -make some points to you. I got about seven I want to quickly get done, and then at the end, I'm going to ask if you disagree with anything I say and then address those things you disagree with. I'll make sure I save time for you to do that. A key responsibility of each member of Congress is oversight. Oversight allows us to hold bureaucrats accountable to the rule of law, and it helps keep faith with taxpayers. I expect HHS to provide timely and complete responses to congressional oversight.

Number 2, PBMs, something you and I discussed in our office. I've been working to hold pharmacy benefit managers accountable in order to lower prescription drug prices. I expect you to work with us to hold PBMs accountable and that may even asking your support for legislation that's before the Congress. Drug pricing. Senator Durbin and I have for a while, been trying to get a bill passed that requires price disclosures on TV ads for prescription drugs. Knowing what something costs before buying it is just common sense. President Trump tried to do this by regulation in his first term.

Vice President Vance co-sponsored our bill last Congress. I ask you to support this bill, or if you can do it by regulation, to do it by regulation. On rural healthcare, the previous administration dragged his feet in opening up slots for rural community hospital demonstration programs. It also ignored concerns from rural pharmacies when implementing changes to Medicare Part D and ignored rural needs when it comes to distributing physician residency slots. I expect you to prioritize rural Americans health care needs. On agriculture, in our meeting earlier this month, we talked at length about agriculture.

You preface the conversation by saying you will not have jurisdiction over these issues. I expect you to leave agricultural practice regulations to the proper agencies. For the most part, that's USDA and EPA. On dietary guidelines, I've sent letters to the secretaries of Agriculture, HHS, requesting that they provide information regarding conflicts of interest on the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee to increase transparency. I expect you to provide Congress with confidential, financial disclosures from the Advisory Committee before finalizing dietary guidelines, so we know that nobody has a vested interest in it, is having undue influence. Lastly, HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement Oversight--

Brian Lehrer: We're going to jump in here to our live coverage of the RFK Jr. confirmation hearing as Senator Grassley is giving a long monologue. We're going to take a break that we need to take. Then we're going to bring back Dr. Daniel Griffin, infectious disease specialist, for a few minutes to go over a few of the things that we heard from that very fiery exchange between RFK Jr. and Senator Wyden. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're listening in this morning on stretches of the confirmation hearing taking place now in the Senate Finance Committee for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to be Health and Human Services secretary. For people joining along the way, I'll give you a quick recap of what I think was interesting from what we heard so far. He began his opening statement by centering environmental pollution's impact on human health and the chronic diseases that afflict the United States. He said over half the country is chronically ill, citing cancer, heart disease, diabetes, also depression and anxiety.

He also made sure to praise President Trump, which could help him with confirmation, saying Trump really cares about American's health. He then turned to why healthcare costs are so high in this country, something that's of concern to everybody but that has very different remedies if you ask Democrats and Republicans. He didn't state a remedy from his point of view, but he cited the cost of chronic diseases, which are very expensive to treat as the main source of the fact that we spend more on healthcare in this country than any other country, and yet we don't have the best outcomes.

He then, very interesting, soft pedal criticism of corporate America, maybe aiming for Republican votes saying their scientists care about health too despite his positions on the processed food industry. He said he is not anti-vaccination. He noted that his own kids are vaccinated, and then added that he's not anti-corporate. Came back to that and wants to ease regulations. Obviously, an attractive talking point to some of the Republicans whose votes will need to be confirmed. What does he plan to do about our chronic health problems?

Well, he said we shouldn't be spending 10% of the SNAP program, food stamps on sugary drinks. Also, on Medicare and Medicaid, we should make people accountable for their own healthcare when they're on those programs, making sure they understand the connection between diet and health. He then said he doesn't want to take away anybody's cheeseburgers or Diet Cokes, noting that President Trump, who he referred to as his boss, he's not confirmed yet, likes them.

Then Senator Wyden, the Ranking Democrat, asked him about his petition in 2021 to withdraw authorization of the COVID vaccine, which would have, in fact, made him anti-vax. It would have denied voluntary access to the COVID vaccine, and Kennedy did not deny it. He said his main concern was young children, and for example, a six-year-old is at such little risk from serious effects of COVID, why risk of vaccination? He didn't deny that he petitioned to ban it for everyone. Then RFK said he supports the measles and polio vaccine and would do nothing to discourage people from getting them.

We're going to bring back on infectious disease specialists and Columbia University Medicine professor, Dr. Daniel Griffin. Dr. Griffin, I guess I want to ask you first about the contradictions that we heard there. He said he doesn't want to take away people's choices. Then he said he supports the measles and polio vaccine. He said that, and would do nothing to discourage people from getting that. Senator Wyden's response was that he didn't believe him. How did the testimony so far strike you in that regard?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes, thanks for that. That was a great recap there, Brian. I was cringing a little bit as I listened. I'm going to sort of pick up a few of the points which are the classic vaccine undermining that even we saw in that brief interchange. One was his underplaying what a serious disease measles is. Here, in the US, in the last year, we've seen a significant rise in number of measles cases. The argument that RFK has always made is, well, you know, when you get measles and you're living in the third world and in an underdeveloped, limited resource, and you have bad nutrition, that's why people get sick.

Even actually called into question maybe those 80 plus people, children mostly that died, maybe it wasn't really even measles. They couldn't prove it to his standard. He threw out this back in the US, 1963, it was only 1 in 10,000 that would die of measles. Let's really dig in. Here we are, United States, 2024, all the advantages we have. The majority of the children that got measles this last year ended up in the hospital. When you look at what happened in Samoa, about 1 in 5 of these youngest babies under the age of 11.

In this 6 to 11-month, really vulnerable period, about 1 in 5, 20% of those little babies ended up getting measles, and 1 in 150 died. Measles is a deadly disease. Measles, a deadly disease. It ends up with people ending up in the hospital, and death is not the only metric. If your child ends up in the hospital, that's horrible. That is going to have an impact going forward. I think those are my biggest concerns. The issue with, again, it gets back to the-- well, you should be able to choose if you want to vaccinate your child, that's fine.

Unfortunately, as I pointed out, these are little babies under the age of a year and the vaccines, our schedule here in the US doesn't really start until after 12 months. You as a mother, you as a dad, you as a parent, grandparent, et cetera, you're actually relying on the community to protect your little babies. That's one of the issues, I think, there. The next, he says, I'm not going to-- I guess, now, he's seen the light or something. "I'm not going to take away your access to vaccine," but he specifically petitioned, "Let's take away everyone's access to COVID vaccines."

Not going after mandates. He was going after access. I'm taking away everyone's right to get everyone's access to vaccines because I'm worried about a six-year-old. I think you really have to look closely and say he hasn't really seen the light, he's just interpreting what he says in a different way to maybe get through this.

Brian Lehrer: One other thing in this stretch before we go back to the hearing, he seemed to suggest that he would make people, who get their health insurance via Medicare and Medicaid, accountable in some way for their own healthcare choices. Citing specifically, the connection between diet and disease. Did you take from that an implied policy change, an implied litmus test of some kind for how people are living for what they're consuming? I don't know how you measure it, I don't know how you actually find out what people's diets are.

Well, he said, "We shouldn't be spending 10% of the SNAP program on sugary drinks." Does that mean he might ban the purchase of certain things for people receiving food stamps or SNAP benefits? Or maybe it just means he'll try to have government policies that educate people more on the risks. On Medicare and Medicaid, he did say we should make people more accountable for their own healthcare. I wonder if your ears perked up at that, like mine did, on what the policy implications of that might be.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes, Brian, they did perk up. I think this is the challenge, right? I mean, physicians, all of us, no one is unaware of the advantages of regular exercise and eating a healthy diet. We know when we order that Big Mac and that super-sized Coca-Cola, that's not a good choice. We know when we don't make time for regular-- so he's not saying anything that is novel, but he does seem to sort of say it as though he just discovered that people are drinking too much soda and eating too much.

Yes, we have a problem in America, and physicians and really parents, I can say everyone is aware and this is an active concern. Then his response that he was going to somehow make people accountable got me like, "What do you mean you're going to make them accountable?" If someone makes bad choices, if they're overweight, if they don't have a great diet, are you going to financially penalize them? Are you going to restrict their access to things? I think the farmers out there are right to worry. What is he going to do with regard to the FDA?

Is he going to make some changes that are going to really impact the production? It's a balance. It's an interesting balance here between, I think, a positive message we all need to address. Better diet, exercise, all these preventive things that we've been talking about for quite a while. The other sort of this anti-libertarian is how is he actually going to make this happen? Is he going to do something that's going to impact our farmers? Is he somehow going to penalize people that don't make the right choices? Are we really going to see a huge education budget? Very curious what is he actually going to do.

Brian Lehrer: All right. After this break, we'll go back into the hearing. It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We're listening today to stretches of the confirmation hearing taking place right now in the Senate Finance Committee for RFK Jr. to be Health and Human Services secretary. We're going to pick it up now a few minutes behind real time with the questioning from one of the senators I mentioned at the top. I'm very interested in hearing and that's because he's both a Republican and an MD, this is Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. We'll pick it up from the beginning of his questioning of RFK Jr.

Senator Bill Cassidy: Mr. Kennedy, President Trump has sworn to protect Medicare. Republicans are exploring reforms to Medicaid that could help pay for Trump administration priorities. With this context, what will you do about dual eligibles.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: About?

Senator Bill Cassidy: Dual eligibles.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Well, dual eligibles are not, right now, served very well under the system. Those are people who are eligible for both Medicaid and Medicare. I suppose my answer to that is to make sure that the programs are consolidated, that they're integrated and the care is integrated. I look forward to working with you, Dr. Cassidy, on making sure that we take good care of people who are--

Senator Bill Cassidy: Thank you. How do you propose that we integrate those programs? Does Medicare pay more, Medicare pay less? Medicaid pay more, Medicaid pay less? How do we do that?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I'm not exactly sure because I'm not in there. I mean, it is difficult to integrate them because Medicare is under a fee for service. It's paid for by employer taxes. Medicaid is fully paid by the federal government, and it's not fee-for-service. I do not know the answer to that. I look forward to exploring options with you.

Senator Bill Cassidy: Republicans, again, are looking at ways to potentially reform Medicaid to help pay for President Trump's priorities, but to improve outcomes. What thoughts do you have regarding Medicaid reform?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Well, Medicaid is not working for Americans and it's specifically not working or the target population. Most Americans, like myself, I'm on Medicare Advantage and I'm very happy with it. Most people who are on Medicaid are not happy. The premiums are too high, the deductibles are too high, the networks are narrow. The best doctors will not accept it in the best hospitals. Particularly. Medicaid was originally designed for a target population, the poorest Americans. It's now been dramatically expanded. The irony of the expansion is that the poorest Americans are now being robbed. Their services have dramatically decreased. Even though we've increased the price of Medicare by 60% over the last four years, the target population is being robbed to figure out other options.

Senator Bill Cassidy: With that said, obviously you've thought about that and I appreciate that. What reforms do you recommend, again, that would improve services, I suppose, but also make it more cost-efficient?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: President Trump has given me the charge of improving quality of care and lowering the price of care for all Americans. There are many things that we can do. The ultimate outcome, I think, is to increase transparency, to increase accountability, and to transition to a value-based system rather a fee-based system-- rather than a service-based system.

Senator Bill Cassidy: Medicaid, in particular, can you just take those general principles and apply it to the Medicaid program?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Listen, I think that there is many, many options with telemedicine, with AI right now, including direct primary care systems. We're seeing that move and grow across the country. There is one of the largest providers--

Senator Bill Cassidy: Going back to Medicaid, though, and speaking of these specific advances, what reforms are you proposing with these ideas vis-à-vis Medicaid?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I don't have a proposal for dismantling the program.

Senator Bill Cassidy: I'm, of course, not saying that.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I think what we need to do is we need to experiment with pilot programs in each state. We need to keep our eye on the ultimate goal, which is value-based care, which is transparency, accountability, access.

Senator Bill Cassidy: One more thing going back to Medicare. You mentioned you're an MA. You mentioned earlier the Medicare fee-for-service. Do you have any thoughts as to whether or not patients on fee-for-service should move into MA, or how should we handle that?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Whether patients--

Senator Bill Cassidy: Who are on Medicare fee-for-service.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: And traditional Medicare?

Senator Bill Cassidy: Yes.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: That's their choice right now. We have, I think, 32 million Americans or 30 million Americans on traditional Medicare and then another 34 on Medicare Advantage, roughly half and half. I think more people would rather be on Medicare Advantage because it offers very good services, but people can't afford it. It's much more expensive.

In answer to your first question, there are all kinds of exciting things that we can be doing, including cooperatives, which President Trump has supported, including Health Savings Accounts, which President Trump has supported, all of these things to make people more accountable for their own health.

Senator Bill Cassidy: We'd bring the cooperatives and the Health Savings Accounts into Medicare and Medicaid?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Exactly. We try to increase the use of those and to direct primary care to continue to transition into a value-based program that is private. Americans, by and large, do not like the Affordable Care Act. People are on it. They don't like Medicaid. They like Medicare, and they like private insurance. We need to listen to what people-- they would prefer to be on private insurance. Most Americans, if they can afford to be, will be on private insurance.

We need to figure out ways to improve care, particularly for elderly, for veterans, for the poor in this country. Medicaid, the current model, is not doing that. I would ask any of the Democrats who are chuckling just now, do you think all that money, the $900 billion, that we're sending to Medicaid every year has made Americans healthy? Do we think it's working for anybody? Are the premiums low enough?

[clapping]

Chairman Mike Crapo: We do need to move on. Senator Warner.

Senator Mark Warner: Well, I got to tell you, for literally hundreds of thousands of Virginians-

Brian Lehrer: Senator Mark Warner, Democrat of Virginia.

Senator Mark Warner: -prevents them from health crises on a daily and weekly basis and some imaginary new plan. If there was a new plan that was to be the basis of what Trump was going to do when repealing Obamacare, I would have thought by now we'd have seen it. I got to tell you--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Listen, Senator, can I--

Senator Mark Warner: Excuse me, Mr. Kennedy, I got questions. I appreciate our visit. I know you take your views seriously, and I don't reflexively vote. I voted for four of President Trump's nominees already. Got a lot of grief from folks on this panel, but I got to tell you, I saw an email that you put out Monday night, or your campaign did. In a fundraising email, your presidential campaign celebrated that the freeze on all new regulations, guidance, and announcements is a way to protect unelected bureaucrats from further undermining our health freedom. Then you ask your donors to help pay for your campaign debt. Did your campaign and you put out that--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I don't think my campaign exists anymore.

Senator Mark Warner: Listen, I got to tell you this. Somebody's out there soliciting money for it. Maybe you ought to find out who is. The fact that you celebrate this freeze, do you think that was a good idea to put all of this on hold for 90 days funding and any kind of further work, NIH Research?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: As Chairman Crapo pointed out--

Senator Mark Warner: I'm not asking for-- I love Mike Crapo. I'm asking you. You're up very important position.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: As he pointed out, Senator, the portals that were closed were not closed as a result of the Trump administration.

Senator Mark Warner: Let me just tell you, I'd like you to explain--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Purpose or policy.

Senator Mark Warner: Excuse me, sir. I'd like you to explain to a domestic violence center in Richmond that's saying because this freeze, they may have to close down. Where are those battered women to go, or a rural nonprofit I've got in the Chino Valley who's saying that freeze is going to potentially shut down their ability to operate? I guess if you deny or don't know what your campaign's sending on, you don't know if you raised a lot of money Monday night [unintelligible 01:06:26].

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I'm saying that the Trump administration--

Senator Mark Warner: You don't know if you raised a lot of money.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The Trump administration has made clear that it does not want to freeze benefits for any Americans under Medicaid or Medicare, and I do not want to dismantle Medicaid.

Senator Mark Warner: The freeze is affecting beyond Medicare and Social Security. I would hope you would have known that to be able to answer some of this. Now, you've said publicly you want to immediately get rid of 600 NIH workers on day one. When we had our meeting, you said you'd actually like to get rid of 2,200 people from HHS. Which offices are you going to start cutting and riffing these 2,200 workers from?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, there's 200 political appointees that are changed during every administration.

Senator Mark Warner: If you got rid of those 200 political appointees, you're not going to replace them with your political appointees?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: President Biden this year changed 3,000 employees at HHS, 3,750 at NIH.

Senator Mark Warner: Your 2,200, what departments are you going to pick them from?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The same as President Biden did when he changed 3,000 out. Of course, all--

Senator Mark Warner: I'm down to 1 minute 30. The chairman's been generous with colleagues on both sides and may have to go a couple of minutes over, but let me just say-- let's just answer. This would be this, I hope, since you're asking to become the top healthcare official in the United States in terms of HHS, huge ramifications. Part of this job is to be the senior adviser to the president on health issues. When we're looking at this purge and we're looking at laying off workers, when we're looking at potentially the president's illegal offer to try to buy out federal employees, which I would say to any federal employees, think twice, has this individual in his business world ever fulfill these contracts or obligations to any workers in the past? If you are in this position, will you pledge that you will not fire federal employees who work on food safety, work on trying to preventing things like Salmonella?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, there's 91,000 employees.

Senator Mark Warner: I take that as a-- That's a simple yes or no. I'm going to take that as a no.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: [crosstalk]

Senator Mark Warner: Actually, we talked about protecting Americans from cybercriminals, something we need to do a lot more on. Will you commit not to fire anyone in the health arena who currently works on protecting Americans from cyberattacks in their healthcare files?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I will commit to not firing anybody who's doing their job.

Senator Mark Warner: Based upon your opinion or your political agenda or Mr. Trump's political agenda?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Based upon my opinion.

Senator Mark Warner: I guess that means a lot of the folks who've had any type of views on vaccines will be out of work. Will you freeze grant funding for community health centers? Will you freeze federal funds for community health centers the way the current administration has done?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The White House has made clear no funds are going to be denied to any American for benefits in any program.

Senator Mark Warner: Do you know what happens at community health centers? Those are direct--

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Are you talking about the Indian health centers?

Senator Mark Warner: No, I'm talking about community health centers across the country.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I understand that. I strongly support--

Senator Mark Warner: You're going to excuse Indian health centers, which is good, but others are not? They're going to get their funds frozen?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I strongly support community health centers as does the president. He does support--

Senator Mark Warner: Does that mean you're not going to freeze the funding that is currently frozen? You're going to unfreeze it?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The White House is clear that none of that funding is supposed to be frozen.

Senator Mark Warner: Sir, the direct payments are different than how the government operates. We fund the federal government down to community health centers. As a former governor, there's lots and lots of state programs that are related to healthcare that come from the federal government. They come down to the state, then it goes to local programs. All of those don't directly pay out a dollar at a time, but they come from federal funding.

Even though they keep changing the guidance on a minute by minute basis based upon 9:45 or 10:30 or 10:45, whatever time it is today, those funds are still frozen. Sir, honestly, I want to give you a fair shot, but I don't feel like you approach this job with the knowledge, and candidly, your willingness, not willingness not to commit, try to recommend to the president to make sure these funds are unfrozen and that people's lives were at stake is a very disappointing answer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Mike Crapo: Senator Lankford.

Senator James Lankford: Chairman, thank you.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to jump in here for some analysis of some very interesting and potentially consequential exchanges that that we've heard in the last few minutes, and then we'll pick it up with Senator James Lankford's questioning, Senator Lankford from Oklahoma. If you're just joining us on the Brian Lehrer Show today, we're listening to stretches of the confirmation hearing taking place now in the Senate Finance Committee for RFK Jr. to be secretary of Health and Human Services.

Riding along with us for some analysis along the way is Dr. Daniel Griffin, chief of infection diseases at Island Infectious Disease on Long Island, instructor of medicine at Columbia University and co-host of the podcast This Week in Virology, among other things, in his very active life. Dr. Griffin, Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican from Louisiana who is an MD, asked RFK about so-called dual eligibles. Cassidy said Republicans are looking for ways to reform Medicaid dual eligibles, people who are on both Medicare and Medicaid, so that's low-income older people or disabled people.

Cassidy said Republicans are looking for ways to reform Medicaid to help pay for President Trump's priorities and improve health outcomes. Didn't say whether those two things might be in contradiction with each other, but Kennedy said, "The poorest Americans," and I thought this was really striking. Kennedy said the poorest Americans who Medicaid was originally designed for are being robbed by the expansion of Medicaid. I presume, without saying the words Affordable Care Act, that was a criticism of the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare, which expanded Medicaid.

It got many more low-income Americans who are not the poorest of the poor but not otherwise covered by employer plans. It got them health insurance when they had not been able to afford it in the private marketplace. I'm curious how you heard that stretch, and if there's anything in your own experience as a practitioner that you were thinking about in terms of who's covered now compared to who was covered before Obamacare.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Sure. Maybe we shouldn't call it Obamacare. Maybe we should call it the Affordable Care Act, which is what a lot of Americans are benefiting from. Whether they're on one side of the aisle or the other, we have really seen in the last number of years an increasing number of Americans now actually have healthcare. That's great for everybody, actually. It's great for them. It's great for the individuals that have coverage. It's great for the hospitals. It's great for providers. It's great for employers. It's great really for our entire country that we actually have people with this expanded access.

One is, I don't think anyone is suffering from this. It unfortunately became a bipartisan issue, but part of it may be the way it was is named because when you actually talk to people and they realize, hey, forget about what you call it, such and such change may take away your access to affordable healthcare, that's a problem. I think we've seen pretty significant changes because of legislation that has gone in, that has benefited so many Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have anything on this claim from Kennedy that the expansion of Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act to more people who are not as low-income has somehow diminished the quality of Medicaid coverage and therefore hurt the poorest of the poor who it was originally designed for?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: I don't think that's true. I think the opposite, as Medicaid has expanded it as a more significant place in the market. We've certainly seen centers that actually really focus on caring for this population. There's even systems where if above a certain percent of your patients are Medicaid patients, you can get a different compensation to help take care of these folks. When you have a large number of Medicaid population, you could start working with ways to help address Medicine costs and the rest. I think it's the exact opposite.

Brian Lehrer: Kennedy called for a switch from a fee-based system to a value-based system for paying doctors and other health providers in Medicaid. He said people do not like their Medicaid coverage while they do like Medicare and they do like private insurance. Considering some of the critiques of United Health Care and other private insurers since the assassination of UnitedHealthcare CEO, that got some verbal reaction from some of the senators or maybe some of the people in the gallery. On this switch from a fee-based system to a value-based system for Medicaid, again, for you as a practitioner, do you think that would improve anything for the patients you serve?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Probably to give our listeners what is this concept of value-based. It's the idea, instead of just paying providers for the amount of stuff they do, there would be a focus more on outcomes. If your panel of patients is able to stay out of the hospital, if you're able to get the them routine screening, that's what actually gets you compensated. The interesting thing I think was that the whole idea was that the doctors would work really hard to take great care of their patients and then there'd be all this decrease in cost and improve outcomes for the patients.

I think what's made a lot of people unhappy is that the largest player, shall I say, in the space of this is actually UnitedHealth Group and Optum and UnitedHealthcare. What is really happening is we're actually, well, unfortunately starting to see a lot of anger rising to level of anger with regard to some of the private healthcare insurances and how they've been acting lately. I think a good point he did make is that there actually are a lot of people on Medicare who are quite happy. You're paying premiums that are usually reasonable and affordable for people who have access to this.

Some are choosing Medicare Advantage plans. He said it was outside the reach of folks, but a lot of those plans are about $17 a month premium, some even a no-charge, just because there's a certain advantage for some of the private insurers for offering these Medicare Advantage manage plans. I don't think everyone prefers that because as you see, about half of the people on Medicare are choosing not to go that route and just staying with the traditional Medicare approach.

Brian Lehrer: What struck me from that was that he very casually equated the satisfaction levels with Medicare and with private insurance. He said people don't like their Medicaid coverage. They do like Medicare and do like private insurance. Whereas, I think with this anger that you refer to that's been bubbling up recently, we hear that people generally do like their Medicare who are on Medicare, but with respect to private insurance, so many are so frustrated by all the deductibles and copays and delays and denials, and yet Kennedy just lumped them together as types of insurance that people do like. Were you surprised to hear that?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: I don't think it was accurate. His whole idea that everyone on Medicare, if they could, would rather be on private. No, I think Medicare is actually a very robust system. Most of my patients that are on Medicare are actually very happy with a straightforward approach to things as opposed to, as you mentioned, this delay, denial which we're hearing more and more of.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, there are things that Medicare doesn't cover that Medicaid does, like dental and vision and home healthcare, right?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Yes. That was, I think, interesting. I really appreciated that Cassidy-- the last few people, because they really asked RFK Jr. real details, "Okay, hey, you're thinking about taking over this job. Let's get into the weeds," and you saw he was lost. I think it's important that someone stepping in this role, actually, understands what would be responsible for.

Brian Lehrer: Right. He didn't seem to know what community health centers were outside of what he called for Indians. One more thing for your analysis in this stretch before we go back to the hearing. He said again, as he had earlier with another senator, that people need to be more accountable for their own health when they're receiving Medicaid. In this particular line of questioning, what do you take that to mean in terms of what kind of policies might flow from that position?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: I think, again, it raises this concern, what exactly does it mean? Hopefully, someone will ask him more details. When you say people accountable, is there going to be some penalty? Are you going to charge them more if they're not able to maintain what you consider an ideal body weight or if they don't adjust to diet in accordance to what you want? Hopefully, someone will get into. That does raise concerns about this someone who has a history of being a libertarian and giving a lot of freedoms to people, now what is he wanting to do once he gets this mantle of power? Will there be penalties? Will there be restrictions? Will there be punishments?

Brian Lehrer: All right. We'll go back to the hearing right after this. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we're listening this morning to stretches of the confirmation hearing and the Senate Finance Committee for RFK Jr. to be health and human services secretary. We're a few minutes behind real-time as we go back in. The next questioner is Senator James Lankford, Republican from Oklahoma. I think we're going to hear a lot of questioning here about Kennedy's position on abortion rights.

Senator James Lankford: Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Kennedy, again, we had some great visits in my office. We've done some follow-up calls to be able to go through. You and I have talked about 100 different issues and backgrounds and things. You've been able to address a lot of them today in just different questions to be able to clear up social media rumors and the things that are out there on it, so I do appreciate that. We've talked about pharmacy benefit managers. We've talked about the nursing home rule Biden administration put down. We talked about your views on agriculture and commercial and row crop agriculture. We've talked about food issues.

You made it very, very clear you're not going to tell Americans what to eat, but you do want Americans to know what they're eating. I think that's a pretty fair perspective on that. I do want to talk to you about some areas that you and I have talked about as well. We have some disagreements, you and I, on the issue of life and when life begins on that. You've been very outspoken on that, and we've had some good opportunities to be able to talk about that. Title X is specifically in the HHS area. This has been an area that has been interpreted for a long time.

President Trump in the first administration interpreted that rule to say that his administration will prohibit the performance, referral for promotion of abortion as a part of the Title X program. He made that very clear in the first administration. Obviously, that's his decision to make again on that, on how he wants to handle that. He's made a lot of public statements on that. The Biden administration not only reversed that, not only rescinded that rule, but they went one step the other direction.

In my state in Oklahoma, as you and I have talked about, the Biden administration cut off funding to the state of Oklahoma for AIDS testing, for breast cancer screening, and for other areas of poverty healthcare because my state didn't promote abortion. It wouldn't provide. If my state wouldn't promote abortion in the state, we got cut off for federal funds for AIDS testing and for other things. My simple question to you is, how are you going to handle Title X on that? I saw how President Biden handled that in the punitive measures that came on my state for those that are in rural health care. How are you going to handle Title X?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I'm going to support President Trump's policies on Title X. I agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy. I agree with him that we cannot be a moral nation if we have 1.2 million abortions a year. I agree with them that the states should control abortion. President Trump has told me that that he wants to end late-term abortions, and he wants to protect conscious exemptions, and that he wants to end federal funding for abortions here or abroad that's Title X. I serve at the pleasure of the President. I'm going to implement his policies.

Senator James Lankford: Thank you for that. President Biden, when he came in, immediately closed down the Office of Civil Rights and Conscience Protections within HHS. There's a statement that's come out recently that he's going to reopen that office again to be able to protect the civil rights of Americans. One of the things that Xavier Becerra did immediately when he came into HHS was conscience protections for medical professionals that were being compelled against their conscience to perform medical procedures that violated their conscience.

Xavier Becerra stepped in immediately into HHS and withdrew that and said, ""No, the federal government will tell you what you believe about these issues. You don't have conscience protections anymore and refuse to protect those folks." Will you step in and say that healthcare individuals have the right of conscience, again, as the federal law allows?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: The first thing that occurs to me when you ask that question is what patient would want somebody doing a surgery on them that believes that surgery is against their conscience being forced to perform that? I don't know anybody who would want to have a doctor perform a surgery that the doctor is morally opposed to. Listen, I came from a family that was split on life and choice. I have cousins today who believe that abortion at any stage is equivalent to homicide.

Now, there are other people who believe the opposite. The good thing in my family that I really loved is that we were able to have those conversations and respect each other. I wish that we could do that nationally. If forcing somebody to participate in a medical procedure as a provider that they believe is murder does not make any sense to me. We need to welcome diversity in this country. We need to respect diversity, and we need to respect each other when we have different opinions and not force our opinions on other people.

Senator James Lankford: Thank you for that. The FDA, under the Biden administration, changed the rules for the chemical abortion drug and said you no longer need to see a physician. If you have an ectopic pregnancy or all kinds of other-- don't even go anymore to see a physician. They also changed an area, something that's been very particular you've talked about a lot, and that's transparency. They changed the position and said, don't tell us if there's a side effect on this drug unless she dies. Other than that, don't tell us anymore. Literally, don't give transparent information to the American people or to the women who take this drug anymore. We don't want that reported.

My question to you is, will FDA move to be able to actually give transparency to the American people and to say this drug is no different than any other drug, we are going to protect it just because it's political for some folks? People should know side effects on this drug and there should be reporting.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: It's against everything we believe in this country that patients or doctors should not be reporting adverse events. We need to know what adverse events are. We need to understand the safety of every drug, mifepristone, and every other drug. President Trump has made it clear to me that one of the things he is not taking a position yet on mifepristone, a detailed position, but he's made it clear to me that he wants me to look at safety issues. I'll ask NIH and FDA to do that.

Senator James Lankford: Thank you.

Chairman Mike Crapo: Senator Whitehouse.

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, I only have five minutes with you. [crosstalk]-

Brian Lehrer: Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: -experience with CMS, so you're just going to have to listen. Two things. One, if you want to move from advocacy to public responsibility, Americans are going to need to hear a clear and trustworthy recantation of what you have said on vaccinations, including a promise from you never to say vaccines aren't medically safe when they in fact are and making indisputably clear that you support mandatory vaccinations against diseases where that will keep people safe. You're in that hole pretty deep. We've just had a measles case in Rhode Island, the first since 2013, and frankly, you frighten people.

Two, I want to air harms that Rhode Island has experienced from a remorseless, senseless CMS bureaucracy. CMS has for years maintained a reimbursement system that the bureaucracy could never explain, never justify-

Brian Lehrer: CMS is the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: -[crosstalk] pays Rhode Island providers less than neighboring Massachusetts and Connecticut providers, a differential of 23% and 26% in our regional healthcare market. The pending AHEAD program can begin to remedy this, at least for value-based care, and it must. There has to be payment parity in the region. Rhode Island's healthcare system is bleeding out because we aren't paid what neighboring hospitals and doctors are paid, and the one act CMS took on this years ago was to make it worse.

The CMS bureaucracy has also attacked one of the best accountable care organizations in the country, Rhode Island's Integra family doctors, tried to throw them off the Shared Savings Program because they said Integra years ago briefly fell 137 patients short of the 5,000 patients that ACOs need. CMS wouldn't listen until a court found that to be unjustified, likely illegal, irreparable harm to this high-performing ACO and its patients, and contrary to the public interest. That must stop.

Last, CMS has refused to approve waivers granted elsewhere for Rhode Island from rules that are stupid for Medicare patients who are nearing the end of their days. Here's what families see. Granny is home dying. She needs to transfer to a nursing home, and Medicare insists on putting her three days and two nights in a hospital. Expensive, frightening to Granny and the family, and stupid. Granny's home dying and can't get palliative and curative care together. Inhumane and stupid. Granny's home dying and can't get home care. If she can still get out into the yard or be driven to see the shore, to see Narragansett beach, say, one more time to recall childhood memories before she dies. Inhumane and stupid.

Granny's home dying and the family's exhausted. The respite care benefit is not to send a nurse or a caregiver but to stuff Granny in an ambulance and haul her off to a hospital. Some respite. It's all expensive, frightening, inhumane, and stupid. The insensate CMS bureaucracy takes a court order to be awakened to the harm they cause. I have had enough. CMS should let Rhode Island try humane end-of-life care through CMMI. Let's see if it works at a state. I bet it will save money, serve families better at a very, very delicate time, and perhaps even make a model for better healthcare everywhere.

I've said a lot. My time is out. You're welcome to respond in writing. I ask unanimous consent that the order declaring CMS's actions to constitute irreparable and illegal harm be put into the record without objection.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Let me just respond very briefly, Senator Whitehouse. I'm an implacable enemy of tyrannical insensate bureaucracies and stupid rules. I will work with you to make CMS responsive to the needs of Rhode Island and to remedy those disparities that you talk about. I am familiar with the Integra health plan, and it is the template for what we ought to be doing as a value-based plan. I look forward to you to making sure that we create pilot programs like this around the country.

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, one of the things I've learned in my tenure in the Senate is that a nominee saying that they're willing to work with me amounts to exactly zero. We need to get this fixed. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We've been listening to questioning of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. in his confirmation hearing in the Senate Finance Committee to be the Health and Human Services secretary. We'll go back into the hearing for one more stretch toward the end of our show this morning, but we'll talk first briefly about what we just heard from the latest two senators that we heard. We heard Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma and Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. Senator Lankford characterized Biden administration policies on abortion rights as withholding funds from Oklahoma because they didn't promote abortions, not just make abortions available.

Kennedy said the number of abortions being performed in this country is a tragedy, and he supported the idea that doctors who are morally opposed to abortion rights should not be forced to perform the procedure. Lankford then asked about Biden rules that allowed women to obtain medication abortion pills without seeing a doctor. He then asked if Kennedy would support reversing a Biden position that side effects of mifepristone should not be reported unless the woman dies. Kennedy said he would support that kind of transparency.

Joining us again for a few minutes of analysis of what we just heard from those two senators is Dr. Daniel Griffin, chief of infectious diseases at Island Infectious Disease on Long Island, instructor of medicine at Columbia University, and co-host of the podcast This Week in Virology. Dr. Griffin, maybe you're out of your portfolio on the abortion questions. Any reaction to anything that I just said there, including the truth or falsehood of the claims by either the senator or Kennedy?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Certainly. Yes, you are correct. For a decade, I was primary care, internal medicine, so a little broader than my current focus on infectious disease and vaccines and the like. This is one of those topics that I think has conservatives as Republicans concerned about Kennedy, what exactly is he going to do with regard to abortion and women's rights and choice, really, with his libertarian track record? Up until May of 2024, he was actually on podcasts, which he seems to do a lot of, basically saying that, "Hey, if it's eight months into the pregnancy and a woman wants to make a choice that maybe he wouldn't want to make, that that should be up to the woman."

It's really May of 2024 that he made a pretty dramatic pivot to a basically anti-abortion platform, pro-life platform. I think it's even though I think a lot of our listeners are more concerned about is anti-science, is lack of empathy, I think for the fact that a lot of individuals get sick, it's not necessarily their choice. It's not bad character. It's not because they made a bad choice. Some folks end up with cancer and other issues.

I think the abortion is an issue that a lot of Republicans, a lot of conservatives, a lot of Catholics, are a little worried. Can they trust Kennedy? Is he really someone who has his own opinions and his own agenda, or is he going to really fall in line with the Trump White House agenda?

Brian Lehrer: Do you know if there's really any ban, and it's fine if you don't know, just say so, on reporting side effects of mifepristone other than death?

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: There's no such ban. I think it's pretty straightforward. If an individual has a side effect from a medication, there's a whole process that we go ahead and report.

Brian Lehrer: It was striking to me that it was noted, and I don't even remember whether it was Kennedy or the senator who said it, that Trump has promised to review the safety of mifepristone. There was just that recent court case that tried to get a reversal to make the courts withdraw the authorization for abortion medication based on their claim that it was not adequately reviewed, and that was turned away. It looks like Trump, if we take that one line from the hearing at face value, is going to try to get that going again, perhaps in support of those who are anti-abortion rights who supported him. Could you tell from that?

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse: That is a concern. With this position of HHS sitting above the FDA, can they do some pause while it's being reviewed further? This medicine has been fully reviewed. We are well aware of the risks and benefits. It clearly falls into a medication that should have FDA approval, which it does. It's a political move. I think we've learned that we have to be careful with someone like Kennedy, who if he's going to actually fall in line with what he's being asked to do, can he use the FDA under a guise to keep us safe?

Can he actually go ahead and remove women's access again, access, which he seems to be talking about, removing our access to vaccines here, removing our access to a medication that a woman and her doctor may want access to?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. To my ear, Kennedy did not make any statement affirmatively supporting abortion rights even if that's his position. He made sure to stick to the areas that might question the limits of abortion rights. That would make the Republicans happy. Then we heard Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat from Rhode Island, saying he needs a clear statement from Kennedy that Kennedy supports mandatory vaccination when that's been proven to keep people safe and to not ever say vaccines are unsafe that have been proven to be safe.

Whitehouse said in his state of Rhode Island, they just recently had their first case of measles since 2013. He didn't say, but he implied that that was because of vaccine hesitancy, which, of course, Kennedy is helping to foster, especially in these pandemic years. I'm curious for you as an infectious disease specialist, if you've been seeing any more measles or other infectious diseases as a result of increasing vaccine hesitancy because of the recent politics of vaccines in your practice on Long Island?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Unfortunately, we are seeing a number of diseases increasing. I think Long Island, maybe people are well aware of the significant, dramatic quadrupling of pertussis, the whooping or whooping cough. Actually, one of our nearby hospitals, we had a woman not much younger than myself, who actually ended up dying in one of our local hospitals from a really severe case of pertussis. When we were having a discussion, I had to call in some of the older pulmonologists, who, like myself, remembered when we used to see these cases. Most of the younger doctors at the discussion had not seen a severe case of pertussis in their career.

Brian Lehrer: Because pertussis or whooping cough is one of the childhood vaccines these days.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: It is, and it's actually another vaccine that we recommend repeating and repeating if you're going to be around newborns, pregnant individuals, and with this anti-vaccine messaging. We're seeing an impact on vaccines all across, not just children. We're actually seeing an impact on adult vaccines as well.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We're going to go back into the hearing for one more stretch. Next up is Democratic Senator Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire.

Senator Maggie Hassan: Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member Wyden, and welcome Mr. Kennedy, and to your family as well. I want to start with a couple of concerns I have and just briefly on Medicaid. States share in the funding of Medicaid. Millions of disabled children in this country are alive because of Medicaid. Millions of people with addiction in this country are in recovery because of the services provided to them by Medicaid. Millions of chronically ill people who until Medicaid expansion was enacted, who couldn't get healthcare and therefore couldn't work because they were too sick, got healthcare through Medicaid expansion, then went back to work and now they're on private insurance.

Those are some facts about Medicaid that you might want to brush up on. Now, I'm also extremely concerned about your endorsement of radical fringe conspiracies that if implemented at HHS would put American families' lives at risks. Vaccines are one of our greatest public health triumphs, and you don't need-- I'm not talking about abstract medical science. One of the people who helped raise me was my grandfather, who was a pediatrician. He practiced medicine in this country from 1921 until the mid-1980s. I heard details about the difference those vaccines made in saving lives in the children who were under his care.

Vaccination has helped to eradicate many deadly diseases in the United States, including polio and smallpox, something we should be proud of as Americans. I am extremely concerned that as secretary, you would be able to halt critical vaccine research and to exploit parents' natural worries by advising them not to vaccinate their children. This will lead to more children getting sick, and some will even die.

Before the measles vaccine, about 500 American children died a year from measles. This is too much of a risk for our country, and there is no reason that any of us should believe that you have reversed the anti-vaccine views that you have promoted for 25 years. For example, you have previously falsely suggested that the polio vaccine killed many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did by causing fatal cancers, while rigorous safety studies show that to be completely false.

Now, let's go to something we agree upon. I am really heartened to see that one area where we agree on is on women's reproductive freedom. In your own words, it's not the government's place to tell people what to do with their bodies. You said that, correct?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Yes.

Senator Maggie Hassan: Mr. Kennedy, in 2023, you came to New Hampshire and said, "I'm pro-choice. I don't think the government has any business telling people what they can or cannot do with their body." You said that, right?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Yes.

Senator Maggie Hassan: You also said, "We need to trust the women to make that choice because I don't trust government to make any choices." You said that too, right?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Yes.

Senator Maggie Hassan: It is remarkable that you have such a long record of fighting for women's reproductive freedom and really great that my Republican colleagues are so open to voting for a pro-choice HHS secretary. Mr. Kennedy, I'm confused. You have clearly stated in the past that bodily autonomy is one of your core values. The question is, do you stand for that value or not? When was it that you decided to sell out the values you've had your whole life in order to be given power by President Trump?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, I agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy, that we can't be a moral authority in this country.

Senator Maggie Hassan: Right, but that isn't what you said back in New Hampshire in 2023. My question is, exactly when did you decide to sell out your life's work and values to get this position?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Senator, I agree with President Trump. Every abortion is a tragedy.

Senator Maggie Hassan: What you're telling us, just to be clear because my time is limited, is that regardless of what you believe, regardless of what values you have, if President Trump tells you to do something, you're going to do it. You said just now the discussion about mifepristone, "Oh, he's asked me to study the safety of it." Here are the safety studies that tell us mifepristone is safe and effective, and I ask Mr. Chair that these, about 40 studies be admitted to the record by unanimous consent.

Chairman Mike Crapo: Without objection.

Senator Maggie Hassan: The studies are there, the safety is proved, the science is there, but what you're telling us is if President Trump orders you to take action to make it harder for women to get direly needed healthcare, you'll follow his order. If Mr. Trump, as he did yesterday, orders a halt on Medicaid payments that are essential for taking care of people with disabilities all around this country, you're going to follow that order because you are willing to sacrifice your values, your knowledge, if President Trump tells you to do that. That, to me, is unacceptable in a secretary of Health and Human Services.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: As I explained before, the White House has issued a statement saying that that policy will not deprive any American benefits.

Senator Maggie Hassan: The problem is, the White House issued that statement only after we pointed out the damage it would do, and it became politically uncomfortable for them. You know what else that freeze on federal funding did? It halted funds for critical research that could cure pediatric cancer. If the president tells you to do that, you're going to stop that too. That's enough.

Chairman Mike Crapo: Thank you. Senator Cortez Masto's next.

Senator Cortez Masto: Thank you. Mr. Kennedy, thank you for coming into my office and having the conversation that we did. I appreciate your passion and your belief and you spent years really [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: We were just listening to Democratic Senator Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire with RFK Jr. in his confirmation hearing. That's the last set of questions we have time for. We'll get one more set of thoughts before we run out of time and then turn it over to Alison for a regular All Of It today. She's not going to be doing special coverage. One more set of thoughts from Dr. Daniel Griffin, chief of infectious diseases at Island Infectious Disease on Long island, instructor of medicine at Columbia University, president of the group Parasites Without Borders, and co-host of the podcast This Week in Virology.

Dr. Griffin, it was notable to me after we played the stretch with Oklahoma Republican Senator James Lankford earlier where he was pressing RFK to take positions against abortion rights or at least limiting abortion rights or being more critical of mifepristone. I said after that last stretch that what we didn't hear from Kennedy was any straightforward statement of his long support for abortion rights.

To my ear, that's exactly what Senator Hassan picked up on. She was trying to get him to just say, like he said on the campaign trail when he was running in the Democratic primary for president last year, that "I support a woman's right to choose and it's a woman's judgment that should pertain over the judgment of the government," and he wouldn't say it.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: I think Senator Hassan-- I was rather impressed. She really called him out. She said, "Listen, you've spent decades being anti-vaccine, being anti-gas and oil, being anti-big industry, being pro-women's rights, pro-choice, to an extreme most people would not support that eight, nine-month abortions.

Here, I think she was rightfully saying, should we say that you're telling us that forget about all those core values, forget about what you've devoted your life to champion. You're going to tell us that whatever Trump says, you'll follow, you'll do that? Because I think that's what we're hearing. We're hearing decades of anti-vaccine, anti-science, all these other things, and she's really asking, is this true? Are you following your core values or are you going to tell this panel, and I think that's what the Republicans and the people confirming are going to need to hear, is that your core values are not as important as your loyalty to the Trump agenda?

Brian Lehrer: I wonder in our last minute and a half or so, if you were a journalist and not a doctor, maybe it's unfair to even ask you hypothetically about this, what your headline from this morning, from what we've heard, would be so far.

For me, it would probably be two things. One, what we were just discussing, RFK refuses to restate his long support for abortion rights, only repeating that he agrees with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy, and that RFK said earlier in the first hour that he supports the measles and polio vaccines and would do nothing to discourage people from getting them, but Democratic Senator Wyden from Oregon, who was questioning him at the time, said he doesn't believe him. Those are my headlines. What's yours?

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Thank you. I don't know if this will be my new day job, but RFK frightens Democrats and Republicans because I think I can look at this two ways. One, we know that Mitch McConnell, we know President Trump were big pro-vaccine folks, actually. What was Operation Warp Speed, $1 billion, maybe more, to really quickly develop a COVID vaccine? I know it was troubling for Trump that he couldn't get the credit that he probably should have gotten for all that effort. We have Trump saying he's going to protect our vaccines and other things.

Then from the Republican side, Trump saying that he is not pro-choice and he's going to go with the agenda on that. That's going to make Catholics and others comfortable. I think he's frightening everyone. Is he going to follow the Trump agenda, or once he gets this position, is he going to unleash his green agenda, his pro-choice, all the other things that his libertarian followers have really come to love him for?

Brian Lehrer: Right. I think one thing we cannot say yet is how the vote will go in the Senate and whether he scared enough Republicans enough either about his positions on vaccines or his more liberal stances. Dr. Griffin, thank you so much for riding along with us this morning. You've been great. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Daniel Griffin: Oh, thank you, Brian. It's been a pleasure. To all the listeners, be safe.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll be back with our regular show tomorrow. Stay tuned for Alison.

 

 

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