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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we'll look abroad to a crisis of democracy occurring not in the United States, but in South Korea, one of the United States' strongest allies in that part of the world. On Tuesday night in the nation's capital, Seoul, President Yoon Suk Yeol declared martial law seemingly out of nowhere. While the order lasted less than three hours, the country plunged into a political crisis. Currently, the president there, President Yoon, faces calls for impeachment from both protesters in the streets and the National Assembly, Koreans' version of Congress. While Yoon still stands, his defense minister, Kim Yong Hyun, has resigned in hopes of appeasing the fury and protecting the leader.

Joining me now to recap the events in South Korea so far and also to talk about whether there's a lesson to be learned for the United States from a head of state trying to move toward authoritarianism in what we generally otherwise consider a democracy is Bryan Pietsch, reporter covering foreign affairs for the international desk at The Washington Post and has a South Korean background, and Anthony Kuhn, NPR international correspondent based in Seoul. Bryan, welcome to WNYC. Anthony, thanks for coming on, this one little NPR affiliate. Hi.

Anthony Kuhn: Hey, nice to join you.

Bryan Pietsch: Hi, thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Bryan, you want to start and define what exactly martial law is or was supposed to be in this context, what powers it would have granted to the president?

Bryan Pietsch: Sure. Essentially, martial law in this context gave power to the military to control everything in the country. This comes from Article 77 of the South Korean Constitution, which says that the president can declare martial law essentially to maintain public safety, limited to times of war, conflict, or another national emergency. Obviously, that was not quite expected.

Although Korea is technically at war still with North Korea, there was no major conflict happening Tuesday evening, at least militarily. Again, under martial law, the military is in control. You saw that exercise on Tuesday evening where there were military members trying to enter the legislative building. There were some military vehicles on the city streets. In that martial law that President Yoon declared, that was in a televised address Tuesday evening, late Tuesday in Seoul.

He made about six declarations. Some of them were quite broad. Other ones were quite specific like placing the news media under martial law control. He also ordered doctors to go back to work. They've been on strike. That's been a little bit of a political problem for him. The martial law that he declared was less public safety and more seeking solutions to some of his political problems.

Brian Lehrer: Anthony, give us a quick timeline of events. Can you take us through Tuesday night when the president declared martial law to where the situation currently stands right now?

Anthony Kuhn: Yes, it has moved really fast, let me tell you. As Bryan said, President Yoon went on TV late on Tuesday night, local time. A lot of people were getting ready for bed, had some drinks for the evening or whatever. He declared martial law. That went into effect immediately. Special forces troops were sent to the National Assembly, the parliament, to try to stop lawmakers from getting in there. At the same time, lawmakers headed there to try to overturn it, to try to demand that he rescind the martial law order.

I also headed to parliament. I was expecting tension, but things were pretty chill. There were tons of police on the street, but they seemed to be just waiting to be told what to do or waiting to see how things played out. The military did not stop the lawmakers from getting in there. They voted unanimously to demand that President Yoon rescind the martial law order. Their constitution allows them to do that. President Yoon, by law, has to do it. He has to rescind the order, which he did four hours later.

This attempt at putting the country under martial law basically lasted for about six hours. The following day, six opposition party lawmakers filed a motion for impeachment in parliament. The law says, from that point on, they have 24 to 72 hours to put the issue to a vote. That would mean this would have to go to a vote in parliament between Friday and Sunday. To pass it, they need two-thirds in parliament.

Now, the opposition does have a majority and that's what's frustrated Yoon so much, but they do not have two-thirds. Some of the ruling party, the People Power Party, would have to join them in voting to impeach the president. The ruling party says they're not going to do that. If they manage to get the votes, then the constitutional court will have to rule on it. If they find against Yoon, Yoon would have to step down. He'd be replaced by the prime minister and they would have to hold an election to pick a new president.

If he stays in power, if the Supreme Court rules in his favor, then you're going to have a lot of unhappy campers. A new poll came out today saying that 70% support Yoon being impeached because of what he did in declaring martial law. 74% of South Koreans think his actions could constitute treason. I think if the Supreme Court rules to support Yoon, then we could see a repeat of 2017 when huge street protests forced the impeachment of then-President Park Geun-hye. Any way you face it, the next few months are going to be rocky.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anyone with ties to South Korea want to call in and help us report this story or anyone at all want to ask our guests, NPR's Anthony Kuhn and The Washington Post's Bryan Pietsch, a question about what's happening in South Korea and interesting, at least hypothetically, potentially worst-case scenarios for the United States?

It's in a lot of your minds right now, listeners, probably. I'll say I've heard it from other people already who say, "Yes, I'm worried that Trump, who's already talked about declaring various states of emergency for various things on day one, might eventually declare martial law in this country." Is there a lesson to be learned from South Korea? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

Anthony, I want to follow up on something you just said. You said that in the legislature in the National Assembly, things were actually pretty chill after the president declared martial law. Then they methodically went about passing a measure to overturn it. There's been footage of lawmakers circulating on the web, seemingly fighting with members of the military, literally scaling fences outside of the National Assembly building. Some videos like that have gone viral. Did something like that happen?

Anthony Kuhn: Yes, the leader of the opposition was blocked and he had to go over the wall and he livestreamed himself doing it. Another image that's become iconic and become a meme is an opposition party spokeswoman named Ahn Gwi-ryeong, who was just furious and grabbed the special forces soldier's assault rifle and started struggling with him and saying, "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" This has become quite a meme. One thing that happened today was that lawmakers in parliament questioned the vice defense minister.

The defense minister resigned. The vice defense minister and also the army chief of staff, who was put in charge of the crackdown of the martial law. The army chief of staff said he found out that martial law was being declared when Yoon declared it on TV at the same time with everyone else. He had zero time to prepare. Basically, they did not have their ducks in a row. If you're going to make martial law stick, you got to make sure that people don't get out on the street and protest in large numbers.

You got to make sure that the lawmakers don't vote to overturn the decision. They did not do that. Some of it seems to be poor planning on the government and military's part, poor communication. Also, there's a lot of discussion on whether the soldiers felt they were on the wrong side in this and they didn't want to use their weapons against civilians, against lawmakers, or any of that. As I told you on the street outside parliament, there were tons of police. They weren't doing anything. They were just waiting to be told what to do.

Brian Lehrer: Bryan, we've gotten several texts from listeners asking and we're going to put this to you because you're in Washington with The Washington Post. Anthony is in Seoul for NPR. A few people are writing in to ask if Trump has said anything in support or opposition of the president of South Korea declaring martial law. Have you seen anything?

Bryan Pietsch: I am not sure. I haven't seen anything directly from Trump about the matter. I know that the US was caught quite off guard. The Biden administration, of course, still in office for another six or seven weeks, they were caught quite off guard by this. They've said on the record and on background that they really were not expecting this to happen. They were quite disappointed in President Yoon honestly for doing this. Then, of course, six hours after he went and rescinded the martial law decree, the Biden administration put out statements.

The US Embassy in Seoul put out statements saying, essentially, they were just quite relieved that that was over. That's important to remember that, as you mentioned earlier, Korea is a really central ally for the US and the region with a more ambitious China in the region. Korea has moved under President Yoon's administration to really more closely ally itself with the United States and with Japan, which we have to remember has a lot of complications with Korea. That three-way alliance looked to possibly be in jeopardy for a few hours with this declaration. It was unexpected by the US. Things seem to have normalized a bit now.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one in a text question for you, Anthony, since you're in the country, "What effect would martial law have on human rights such as religious freedoms in South Korea?"

Anthony Kuhn: I think Bryan mentioned some of the stuff that's in the martial law order. Parliament would be suspended. Media would be subject to censorship. Anybody who bucked the rules or violated the martial law order could be arrested without a warrant. I don't believe there's anything specifically about religion, but the point of the martial law decree is basically to halt all political activity. The context is that it's happened more than a dozen times since the founding of South Korea, but it hasn't happened since 1980. At which time, South Korea was still under a military dictatorship. People in South Korea are determined not to go back to that. They mobilized quickly to fight the imposition of martial law.

Brian Lehrer: Anthony, I'm going to stay with you on this because, if impeached, Yoon would not be the first president of South Korea to experience this fate. The country has a history, from what I gather, of punishing presidents since its foundation, both during times of dictatorship and after its turn to democracy. You want to tell us just very briefly about this legacy of impeachment, jailing, and shame placed upon prominent South Korean politicians?

Anthony Kuhn: Yes. Well, the last conservative president to hold office, I mentioned Park Geun-hye, was toppled by a huge movement called the Candlelight Movement and was impeached. One of the most important figures in South Korean history was the dictator, Park Chung Hee, who ruled over South Korea for much of the '60s and '70s. He started out being democratically elected, but later essentially staged what you could call a self-coup. A self-coup being you're democratically elected. In order to hang on to power, you suspend civil liberties and you assume massive powers yourself.

That is a precedent, which people are comparing this to a self-coup. Of course, when you say "self-coup," some people compare it to January 6th in the US, an attempt to stay in power. The politics in South Korea remain highly polarized. Both sides accuse the other side of democratic backsliding. They accuse the other side of acting out vendettas against their predecessors. A lot of presidents have ended up impeached or in jail. It's part of the legacy of the post-authoritarian history of South Korea that's still in progress.

Brian Lehrer: That's part of the historical context-- [crosstalk] Bryan, a two-part question for you. Listener asks in a text, "Has North Korea issued a statement about this instability in South Korea?" I'll add, is there evidence for President Yoon's claim that the opposition party is engaging in "anti-state activities," presumably with North Korea?

Bryan Pietsch: I am not aware of a statement coming out from North Korea on this. Of course, a lot of the statements, the propaganda that come out, they love to take swipes at South Korea, at the West. To go back to your second part of your question, in the actual martial law decree, President Yoon cited concerns about anti-state activities and about North Korea.

He actually said, "Dear citizens, to protect the Republic of Korea," that's South Korea's official name, "from the threat of North Korean communist forces and to eradicate the shameless pro-North Korea anti-state forces," he was declaring emergency martial law. There's no base to the claims that the opposition party was, for some reason, acting on behalf of North Korea. That was mostly political rhetoric. Going back to what Anthony was talking about, about just how polarized the politics are in Korea right now, that was seen as just political rhetoric fueling what was essentially just a power grab. Of course, he had been facing so many political scandals. He just threw that one out there.

Brian Lehrer: Well, we're going to have to leave it there for today. Anthony Kuhn, NPR international correspondent based in Seoul. Anthony, I just want to say for myself that I think you've been doing a fabulous job covering this over there, an unfamiliar situation to most Americans but a really relevant one right now, both domestically here with what's on people's minds as the worst-case scenario of things that could happen here, and also in terms of US foreign policy and geostrategic relations around the world. Thank you for your great work for NPR. Bryan Pietsch, reporter covering foreign affairs for the international desk at The Washington Post, with experience in South Korea. Thank you for enlightening us here today too. Thank you both.

Anthony Kuhn: Thanks a lot, Brian.

Bryan Pietsch: Thank you.

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