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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good Monday morning, everyone. Hope you had a good weekend if you were off. Hope you hung in there if you were working. The main stage in American politics this week will probably be the United States Senate, where the confirmation hearings are beginning for various Trump nominees and particularly tomorrow for the very controversial defense secretary nominee Pete Hegseth, with his personal behavior issues and things he's written like about preparing for civil war and admiring the crusades.

The New York Times had an article last month, for example, headlined Pete Hegseth and His Battle Cry for a New Christian Crusade. It says the veteran picked to lead the Defense Department has praised the brutal religious military campaigns of the past and has called for a Christian approach to governing. Now, we may do a special coverage edition of this show tomorrow with stretches of the hearing live and analysis around the edges. We're waiting to see if their timing matches our time on the air. The Hegseth hearings and maybe a debate over what military would Jesus command starts tomorrow.

We begin the week with a member of the Senate, Senator Ron Wyden, and we're looking forward to it. He's never been on the show before. He's the second most senior Democrat in the Senate and has been in Congress since 1981. He also has a new book entitled It Takes Chutzpah. He's got a bill for more prescribed burns in national forests to help prevent wildfires. Very relevant, obviously, to what's happening in California now, as Wyden is from the neighboring state of Oregon, which also has its share of wildfires in recent times.

Before we bring him on, the fires, of course, are the other main stage in US politics right now, as well as, of course, for the emergency response. For politics, too, for better or worse. Here's one minute of California Governor Gavin Newsom on NBC's Meet the Press yesterday being asked by reporter Jacob Soboroff on the scene. He didn't go into the studio in D.C., Newsom. This was on the scene in Southern California. Jacob Soboroff asked him about President-elect Trump talking less about how to help and more about threatening the embattled state.

Jacob Soboroff: Multiple times Mr. Trump has threatened to withhold aid for California wildfires, both as president and now again as president-elect. Are you worried that he might actually do that?

Governor Gavin Newsom: He's done it Utah. He's done in Michigan, did it Puerto Rico. He did it to California back before I was even governor in 2018 until he found out folks in Orange county voted for him, and then he decided to give the money. He's been at this for years and years and years. It transcends states, including, by the way, Georgia. He threatened similarly. That's his style. We take it seriously to the extent that in the past it's taken a little bit more time. I've been pretty expressive about that in the context of someone threatening our first responders in terms of supporting the immediacy of their needs.

Jacob Soboroff: That's what he's talking about. President-elect Trump is threatening the first responders here.

Governor Gavin Newsom: It's what he said. He said, "I'm not going to support the firefighting efforts. I'm not going to support the state of California as it relates to its emergency management." He made this pretty clear during the election, unless they do my bidding.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Gavin Gavin Newsom on Meet the Press. With us now is Oregon Senator Ron Wyden, chairman of the Finance Committee, among roles he plays, and now the author of the book It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. It includes the 12 rules of chutzpah, which I will read. Ron's 12 rules of chutzpah, they call it. There will be a rare Ron Wyden sighting in New York tomorrow night in conjunction with the book. He'll be at the Strand Bookstore tomorrow night in conversation with Ezra Klein from the New York Times. That'll be 7:00 PM at the Strand tomorrow, and he's here live now. Senator Wyden, so nice of you to make this one of your stops. Welcome to WNYC.

Senator Ron Wyden: Brian, thanks so much for having me. My wife's been a big fan, and they've had the store for almost 100 years.

Brian Lehrer: Great to hear it. Can we start with some things in the news, and then we'll get to topics from the book?

Senator Ron Wyden: Yes. Let me just make one point with respect to the fire issue that you were talking about. I hope that insurance companies in Florida pay close attention to what Republicans do with the California wildfires, because this is going to set a national precedent and the stakes are very, very high, particularly for my constituents. The fires we're seeing today in Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest, they are not your grandfather's fire. They're bigger, they're hotter, they're more powerful, they're natural disasters.

Brian Lehrer: You were just in the news, in fact, in October, for a bill, you have to increase prescribed fires in national forests. Would that be relevant to Southern California with its terrain, or only Northern California and the great forest lands of Oregon, which I've had the privilege of going hiking in, even though I'm from the East?

Senator Ron Wyden: It has implications for the entire West. What they're dealing with mostly in California is brush. What happens is it gets really hot and dry out there. Climate change contributes to it. Again, you can have a fire take off really quick, you have a lightning strike, this sort of thing. I want to emphasize these are natural disasters. There are steps that we can take to help mitigate the consequences. What I've done with respect to prescribed burns has a big coalition of environmental folks and folks who come from the industry side, because what essentially we ought to be doing is going in there during, for example, the cold weather and bring together the scientists and people across the political spectrum and thin this material that is so susceptible to fire out.

We've had some success with it in the past. We got some money for these kinds of efforts earlier in the Biden administration, but we have so much more to do. That's the overwhelming sentiment that's coming out of the west right now is we're going to need help. We need help immediately, and we're going to need to find common ground in terms of changes.

Brian Lehrer: Is this an area of common ground between you and President-elect Trump? I believe he argues that environmentalists have gone too far in the forever wild direction by winning prohibitions against human designated controlled burns. Is that the right way to look at this issue?

Senator Ron Wyden: He certainly didn't get off to a good start in the last 24 to 36 hours, because when the people out there are saying, we need help, we need it now. We're dealing with a natural disaster. They didn't want to hear about planning and politics. I chose my words very deliberately here. Talking, for example, about the implications nationwide because we have hurricanes in Florida, we have tornadoes in the Midwest. That's why they're setting some precedents here. I want to make sure that they're precedents that are in the public interest, not to try to get a political ideological trophy.

Brian Lehrer: Even as Trump arguably tries to get a lot of political ideological trophies, Democrats should admit when he's right from time to time. Was he right about this when Democrats were resisting during his first term?

Senator Ron Wyden: It doesn't include all of the issues relating to disasters. What we're doing is saying that's what this is all about. Yes. At the end of it, after we've helped California get back to dealing with the emergency, people haven't even been able to go in and look to see about their things, then we can talk about the reforms. I'm prepared to do that. I'll work, as I say in the book, I'll work with anybody from any political perspective with good ideas.

Brian Lehrer: Are you concerned that once Trump is inaugurated a week from today, that federal help for the immediate disaster that is still unfolding will not be forthcoming for political reasons?

Senator Ron Wyden: I'm very concerned about it. He's all but said that. They're talking about tying strings to various kinds of assistance. That's why I'm mentioning that this has great implications for Florida. It has implications for Oklahoma and the Midwest, because this is going to set a precedent. People have come to believe that one of the areas of the federal government that is supposed to be outside traditional political fights is helping people with disasters. When you have a disaster, and that's what we say, we come to play every day. You focus on the priorities, and priorities are helping with disasters in this case, not politics.

Brian Lehrer: Pete Hegseth for defense secretary. His confirmation hearing begins tomorrow. What questions are you most eager for him to have to answer from your colleagues who are on the Armed Services Committee before any confirmation vote?

Senator Ron Wyden: I've certainly been concerned about the character flaws. I've been concerned about the flaws as a manager. Certainly, he's run some organizations, veterans organizations, into the ground. Those three areas, character, management, and particularly the treatment of the veterans, I'm focused on.

Brian Lehrer: There's been so much focus in the media about his personal behavior toward women and with alcohol. You also mentioned his record with respect to veterans, but you probably heard me mention in the intro his more extreme statements on actually running the military. Here's a little more from that New York Times article last month. It says Hegseth has spoken, "often about a medieval military campaign that he saw as a model for today, the Crusades, in which Christian warriors from Western Europe embarked on ruthless missions to wrest control of Jerusalem and other areas under Muslim rule."

The Times then quotes from Hegseth's book, American Crusade, published in 2020, "Voting is a weapon, but it's not enough. We don't want to fight. Like our fellow Christians 1,000 years ago, we must," from Pete Hegseth. Any thoughts on how your colleagues on armed services should question him on that tomorrow?

Senator Ron Wyden: It's blood curdling oratory. Remember, Senator John Tower was excluded from an important position for drinking. Ironically, the Crusades were [unintelligible 00:11:26] militarily.

Brian Lehrer: As ranking Democrat on The Finance Committee, are there any Trump nominees who you'll be questioning, who you're most concerned about?

Senator Ron Wyden: We're certainly at the top of our list concerned about Robert Kennedy. Some of his views are so outlandish, so extreme. For example, we've looked at the tapes on the vaccine issue, and he said point blank that no vaccine has ever proved to be effective. I wouldn't like to try to explain that to families in Oregon or Oklahoma or anywhere else who have seen for generations their family has benefited from the vaccines that they have been able to be safe as a result. That's at the top of the list of Billy Long, who's been nominated head of the IRS.

Certainly, is very troubling. We're looking particularly there's been a program, the employee retention tax credit, which has been tainted by fraud. He left the Congress and apparently has been involved with that. Billy Long and certainly the Secretary of Treasury, Mr. Bessent is coming before us here very shortly. The real question is, where is he on what is the distillation of the Trump economic program, which is basically to help the people at the very top, the billionaires, and have it paid for by Medicaid and cutting hunger programs and the like. That's what I want to know from him.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Is the Elon Musk Government Efficiency Commission going to wind up with some of its recommendations before your committee, the Finance Committee. If he's saying cut 2 or 3 trillion from the federal budget, there will obviously be controversial bills.

Senator Ron Wyden: Certainly. We're concerned. For example, we've been able to make reforms in terms of filing using the agency to help people with a program that means they can save hundreds of dollars on these tax prep firms. I want to know if he's going to make changes in that. Musk says he's for efficiencies. We're making them and people are getting help. They're saving several hundred dollars.

Brian Lehrer: For you as ranking Democrat and former chair of the Finance Committee, Trump would say his tax cuts and cuts to regulations in his first term led to economic growth, including that help people in the middle and lower and working classes, not just the rich, even though they got most of the dollar benefit from the tax cuts, and that there was low inflation at the same time. Your response?

Senator Ron Wyden: The money went disproportionately to the people at the top, number one. Number two, we were told that it wouldn't create big deficits, that it would pay for itself. The real question, Brian, is do you want a tax system that gives everybody in America the chance to get ahead. That's where we're at our best. That's not what the Trump program is all about. By the way, in his first campaign, he promised all these wonderful things he was going to take on the hedge funds and the like. Didn't do any of it. We'll see if these promises to help waiters and people on Social Security come to pass. Because the last time he made a lot of promises in his campaign and didn't do them, he would say most of what he's always talking about on these issues is helping the middle class, and he doesn't do it.

Brian Lehrer: Again, he says the record shows that there were more jobs, there were wage increases, and there was low inflation under his economic policies in his first term. Do you dispute that?

Senator Ron Wyden: Yes, I think that the low inflation comes from eight years of recovering up from the financial crisis. That's really what happened is that he basically said, we're going to actually help these working people. Didn't come to pass.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned two of the tax cuts that he promised during the campaign last year, specifically for waiters. I guess that's the no tax on tips and no tax on Social Security benefits. Would you vote for those things if they came before you in the Senate?

Senator Ron Wyden: Sure. If he writes a package that helps working people, he's going to get support from Democrats. Come back to his first campaign, Brian, it was just like the second campaign. First campaign, he promises all of these things that are going to help workers, and he's going to take on hedge funds and the like. Then when it comes to actually following through, he doesn't do it. Look at what he said about food costs already. He made a big deal in this campaign about how he was going to lower food prices. He was going to take on all of the big challenges there.

It didn't take but 10 days, and he walked it back. The real test is whether he's going to do it or whether he's just going to continue this pattern of making promises and never following through. He did that in the first campaign. I believe he's going to do it in the second campaign because he's got a government that he wants to stock with billionaires.

Brian Lehrer: He's got his ways that he says he's going to approach inflation. The cost of living, cost inflation's been coming down, but he says he's going to bring it down more and keep it down. I see that you were out there criticizing McDonald's for some price increases. How much do you think price gouging played a role in the recent inflation?

Senator Ron Wyden: Definitely was a big factor. Look what we've always said, and I said it again during the course of the campaign. We believe in markets, but we've got to have guardrails to protect consumers. Trump has no interest in doing any of that. That's why I think it's particularly striking. He made a big issue about food prices in the campaign. It took 10 days for him to walk it back. Mark my words, he is going to walk back these promises to middle class folks. We've seen the consequences in our part of the world with Albertsons and Krogers, which would have been the biggest foodmate merger in American history. Unfortunately, a judge that we've been supportive of said no.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some questions for you for Oregon Senator Ron Wyden. He's chair of the Finance Committee, among other things that he's been doing in the Senate for a long time. He's been in Congress since 1981 when he joined the House from Oregon, and the Senate since '96, you were elected. Do I have that right?

Senator Ron Wyden: Yes. I took Bob Packwood's place after he was forced to resign.

Brian Lehrer: he is the author of a new book called It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. He's in New York to do a book event at the Strand tomorrow night at 7:00 in conversation with Ezra Klein. You mentioned your wife is a listener to the show because she's been in New York for a long time. She's owned the store for a long time. The store, you mean the Strand? She's actually an owner of the Strand, right?

Senator Ron Wyden: She's the third generation owner, Brian. Tomorrow night, we're going to talk about these kinds of issues with Ezra Klein at 7:00 PM, and the reality is, and just want to tell people, I think that chutzpah, being bold and being willing to take on the odds is needed now more than ever. Across the country, whether it's somebody helping locally dealing with a safety risk on their corner or something, going to their legislature and taking on the drug companies and here in the Washington, D.C. Area, going for tax fairness and housing, getting rid of health care middlemen.

This is a time when we need people to be bold. What we do in this book is we say chutzpah is something that everybody has. Then I have these 12 rules of chutzpah that really give people a chance to polish up their ability to make change.

Brian Lehrer: The book, again, the title, as you just said, is It Takes Chutzpah, subtitle How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. Why title it around the concept of chutzpah?

Senator Ron Wyden: I think that people, and I've heard this from young people right now, are really worried. Certainly Democrats have grounds to be concerned about Trump policies like turning back the clock on women's health. Young people are worried about whether they can pay rent. They're worried about what careers they're going to have, whether they're going to have be able to get a starter home. What I'm trying to do is lay out policies that give them a chance, whether it's in terms of their local community or local government or other governmental, to make a big difference.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I invited you a minute ago to call in with questions for Senator Ron Wyden, but I don't think I gave out the phone number. It's 212-- For those of you who don't have us on Your speed dial, 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Call or text for Senator Wyden. Go ahead senator.

Senator Ron Wyden: Brian, the other aspect of this is it's not just on the government side. For example, I was looking at a study recently that showed that after the first of the year, a lot of people have thought about getting a promotion in their job or asking for a wage increase. What the studies are showing that are a lot of women who are reluctant to do that, they might be feeling they're going to rock the boat. Show your chutzpah, get the promotion, get the raise.

Brian Lehrer: Chutzpah. You framing around that probably some people who don't know you hear this and they go, "Oh, I guess he's Jewish. I hope he's Jewish if he's calling a book chutzpah." I see, in fact, your parents were Jewish refugees from the Nazis, and you write in the book about links you see between the Jewish American experience in the 20th century and today and the principles that underpin American democracy. What do you have in mind?

Senator Ron Wyden: What I'm concerned about is, again, people having these kinds of opportunities that my parents had. My parents fled the Nazis in the '30s. Not all got out. My dad was one of the famous richie boys that were in our army and dropped the pamphlets on the Nazis. The reality is that Americans today often feel that they don't have the same opportunities that my dad and my parents had, and what I'm trying to show people with these chutzpah rules and basically how they can be used today to secure these opportunities my folks have and that we can get through this period of exceptional stress that is being generated by so much in government.

Brian Lehrer: Today, we have the simultaneous problems of rising antisemitism and widespread condemnation of how Israel is fighting the war in Gaza, which is not always about antisemitism. Do you have a position on continuing to arm Israel? One version of the argument against says, of course, Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas after October 7th, but the Netanyahu government has essentially disabled Hamas now, and yet they continue with an aggressive military campaign that is killing so many civilians, bombing all the hospitals, so many schools. It's time for the US to stop being a party to that. That's the argument. How close is that to your own position?

Senator Ron Wyden: That really, in my view, misses the point. I believe you don't turn your back on Israel because you disagree with the leadership. What you do is you roll up your sleeves and say look, we're going to focus on getting the hostages out. We're going to get humanitarian aid in. We're going to continue to make the case that Netanyahu basically is interested in, first and foremost, in himself. He wants to be able to benefit himself, make sure that he isn't prosecuted and faces legal consequences.

What we need is, is a policy where the United States recognizes that there are a lot of young people in particular who are making important points with respect to humanitarian aid and the like. I don't take a backseat to anybody in terms of supporting it. I don't think you turn your back on Israel because you disagree with Bibi Netanyahu and their leadership.

Brian Lehrer: Is it turning our backs on the Palestinian civilians, though, to keep sending weapons for Netanyahu to use in what I think you just described as in his own political interest?

Senator Ron Wyden: My sense is that you have to see this through a prism of both the Palestinian mom and the Israeli mom. That's why I'm such a strong supporter and have used the Senate Finance Committee to promote two state solution where you have respect coming for both the Palestinian mom and the Jewish mom. I hope we can accelerate that. You ask about things you can do. The Abraham Accords, I wouldn't have written them that way. They've done some good. Let's build on them.

Brian Lehrer: As the child of refugees from the Nazis, what do you think of the comparisons of Trump to the 20th century fascists by his former national security appointees. How worried are you about anything that he might do specifically that you might label fascist or authoritarianism or in the mold of Hitler?

Senator Ron Wyden: I'm very troubled by some of these appointments, and I'm, for example, concerned about Tulsi Gabbard. That would be one that would come up and we'll see what those hearings look like as a member of the intelligence committee.

Brian Lehrer: What does that mean in terms of American democracy? I know people suspect that she's too close to Putin, that kind of thing, but what about in terms of American democracy and how Trump would govern based on the question I asked?

Senator Ron Wyden: Whose side are you on? I'm on the side of protecting Americans privacy and their values. Talk about privacy in the book. Tulsi Gabbard may in fact be someone who, based on her record with Assad and Putin and others, is not paying the commitment to American values that we have a right to expect.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Senator Ron Wyden. I will read his Ron's 12 Rules of Chutzpah. That's what that page is called, Ron's 12 Rules of ChutzPah. They're very short. I'll just read through the list and invite him to expand on a few, and then we'll take your phone calls, 212-433-WNYC. Call or text and stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with veteran Democratic Senator Ron Wyden from Oregon. He's in New York for an event at the Strand tomorrow night, seven o'clock, for his new book, It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. It includes Ron's 12 rules of chutzpah. Here they are. Number one, if you want to make change, you've got to make noise. Number two, in a world where everyone thinks and acts for the short term, always play the long game. Three, leading is coaching. You've got to bring people and ideas together around a shared goal.

Four, show up every day. Prepare to play. Five, there are two equally important paths to progress. Start good things and stop bad things. Six, embrace the unscripted moments. Seven, ideas are the seeds of change. Find them and plant them wherever and whenever you can. Eight, pay attention to your friends because they can be far more unpredictable than your enemies. Nine, don't push rocks up hills. Push boulders. They will fall back on you, but you'll gain the strength to get to the top.

10, be a principled bipartisan. Work with anyone who is serious about moving forward. 11, compromise isn't about horse trading bad ideas for each other. It's about blending good ideas together into a whole that's better than the sum of its parts. Number 12, political capital doesn't earn interest and is worth nothing if you don't spend it. Ron's 12 rules of chutzpah from his book. Senator, would you like to pick any one of your choice from the list and talk a little bit about how you've used it in your work as a senator?

Senator Ron Wyden: Yes. Why don't we use number one, Brian? If you want to make change, you've got to make noise. I was a young member of Congress and I had begun to hear, as the chair of a small subcommittee that had not really been involved in health care, about the opportunity for a non surgical alternative to abortion. I held in 1990, you can see them on C Span, the first hearings on mifepristone, which of course was the breakthrough drug that provided the non surgical alternative.

At that time I was dealing with people like Jesse Helms, the noted right winger from North Carolina, and held hearings and in particular brought in the FDA. They said things like, "We didn't really have any evidence on why we should block this drug, but it was just our intuition, it was just our general sense that it was a bad idea." I basically developed this theory of government by intuition. This was eventually when Bill Clinton took office after George Herbert Walker Bush. I said, "We're going to make decisions not on the basis of politics, but on the basis of good science."

Here we are 20 years later dealing with exactly the same issue where the far right is trying to basically do politics and take this away. The scientific evidence is overwhelming. I think this is also important because it shows that political change isn't really linear. It doesn't necessarily move from point A to point B in a particular period of time. We won that fight essentially 20 years ago, but here we are still battling for the very same idea, which is we want good science which comes out of laboratories and independent analyses to prevail, rather than politics.

Brian Lehrer: I think Kathy in Nyack might have a relevant question to what you were just talking about. Kathy, you're on WNYC with Senator Ron Wyden.

Kathy: Hi, thank you for taking my call. It's a complicated question, but I'm very concerned about the cost of food, and everybody is. As you said before, the new president has promised to do all of this stuff. You were also talking about that he is even backing off on now. You were talking also about the nominees for the cabinet that you were most concerned about. I'm very concerned about the nominee for agriculture secretary who can do something about food and needs to do something about food. You didn't mention her, Brooke Rollins, and she is a climate change denier, as is Trump, of course. The changing climate is going to be affecting and is already affecting our food system and the cost of food.

Brian Lehrer: Kathy, thank you very much. Senator, do you have an opinion about Brooke Rollins, and do you see her as the Agriculture secretary nominee as a climate denier?

Senator Ron Wyden: Certainly, I want people to know my position on climate and then we can talk about her. She has not been one of the nominees that has gotten the most visibility. I'm glad that our caller has put this nomination on the radar. I wrote in the last Congress the law that constitutes the biggest investment in fighting climate change in American history after decades and decades of gridlock on ideas like cap and trade and carbon pricing and the like.

I basically, over a multi year period, developed the clean energy tax credits which have resulted in hundreds of billions of dollars in new investments in cleaner energy. I'm all in with respect to how we're going to deal with this food issue. That's why I fought the Albertsons-Kroger merger so aggressively because one of the reasons we have grocery store prices going through the roof is consolidation, lets them jack up prices. We need certainly that agency, agriculture, we need the FTC, the justice, the White House department.

I want you to know that with Rollins, we've got to take a look at a relationship on a number of issues, including trade, which has a dramatic effect on food prices. Three chairs for you on a Monday morning highlighting the cost of food. This agriculture appointment hasn't gotten the same visibility and attention, but I hope I've been able to reflect my commitment to climate change in the authoring of the law that is the biggest investment in fighting climate change in American history. Hundreds of billions of dollars of investment already.

Brian Lehrer: Should your party be humbled by this election result, including on the topic of climate? I know it was still a close election, but with all of Trump's character issues and legal issues, some analysts say it shouldn't have even been close. Except that the Democrats are seen as out of touch by a lot of working class America and increasingly across racial and ethnic lines on topics like immigration and going too hard on supporting the climate at the price of increasing the cost of energy too much for too many Americans.

Senator Ron Wyden: Brian, nobody ever beats inflation. We saw it in the '70s. Certainly that's what we were up against. It's why I came out so aggressively on the food issue, saying this is about markets, but what we've got to do is have guardrails for consumers. Zeroed in on the Kroger-Albertson issue. There is no question that when you're dealing with inflation in a campaign, nobody ever beats it.

Brian Lehrer: On immigration, a big reason Trump got elected, is it just common sense, as some would argue, to build a wall? Mass deportation maybe is another question. On a wall, you can say we need many more immigrants, not fewer, for many economic reasons. It's true, I imagine you hold that position as ranking Democrat on the Finance Committee. Many people would be more open to having that conversation, arguably, if it was in the context of a real border. The country is actually in control of that choice. What do you think about that argument?

Senator Ron Wyden: Brian, we've got a rule on this point we're talking about, which is essentially block bad things and be for good things that actually help people. The reality is, and certainly this was something that could have been better addressed in the campaign as well, we were for a bipartisan effort. It was led by Chris Murphy, James Lankford, certainly he would consider himself one of the most conservative members of the United States Senate. We wanted to put that on the floor of the United States Senate and start debating the varied and sundry changes.

Donald Trump barked, and suddenly it disappeared. That's why we had a crucial vote here a couple of days ago where we were talking about whether we should actually have a debate on it. I voted for it because I said all through the campaign, we talked about how we wanted to have a debate. Donald Trump blocked it. Now it's time to get at it. I will tell you, apropos of my position, I think what we ought to do, which people over the years have said was really the path to build on what Ronald Reagan was talking about, which is take steps to better secure the border and provide a path to citizenship.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think something like that bipartisan immigration bill will be reintroduced by your Republican colleague and co-sponsor, Senator Lankford, or anyone else once Trump is inaugurated?

Senator Ron Wyden: We'll see. I doubt whether Trump is actually going to be able to find a way to turn back as many illegal immigrants as Barack Obama did. He's demonizing things and that wins votes.

Brian Lehrer: One more call, Fidel, in Jersey City, you're on WNYC with Senator Ron Wyden. Hi, Fidel.

Fidel: Yes, good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for taking my call. Senator Wyden, I want to go back to the point that you admitted, and this is piggybacking on Kathy's point about food. You just admitted at the beginning of the conversation that there was price gouging. My question is, why were you and the Democrats-- full disclosure, I don't believe in any one of the two parties because we've only had two parties and here we are. Getting back, why weren't you able to curtail the price gouging? This just didn't happen overnight. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about that. Again, thank you so much.

Senator Ron Wyden: Good question. I think if I were to put my finger on one kind of problem, the effort to beef up antitrust laws, both in terms of moving on existing law and looking at ways to strengthen it, is probably the other big factor in this. As I said, I led the effort against more concentration with Kroger and Albertsons, got more than 20 members of Congress to participate in the legal brief on this. Antitrust enforcement has basically been gutted for years and years. I cite that as another factor that you correctly state is something that's got to be addressed.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing before you go, a number of listeners are chiming in to say that you misused the word chutzpah in your book title. One says, love him, but he's misusing chutzpah. It's nerve and audacity. Another one says he conflates it with the word bold. Its generally accepted meaning is effrontery. Yet another one, Wyden, confuses chutzpah with courage. He has chutzpah to redefine chutzpah. You want to respond to any of those listeners?

Senator Ron Wyden: I think we're using the word correctly. Rabbi Freeman and Chabad laid this out very well. Chutzpah is inherently good, in my view. What Trump has done is really warp the reality of it. Here's what Rabbi Freeman says. "To be a good Jew, you need two opposites. A sense of shame that prevents you from acting with chutzpah to do the wrong thing and a sense of chutzpah that prevents you from being ashamed to do the right thing." That's essentially what I'm talking about.

Brian Lehrer: The book is called It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat from Oregon. He'll be in conversation at the Strand tomorrow night at seven with Ezra Klein from the New York Times. If you're in New York and want to see him in person. Senator, thank you so much.

Senator Ron Wyden: I applaud the listeners. Chutzpah questions are important.

 

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