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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz, reporter in the WNYC newsroom, and I'm sitting in for Brian today. Fires from lithium-ion batteries used in e-bikes and other similar vehicles have become a scourge in New York City, causing hundreds of fires and killing 31 people since last year. The FDNY has been trying to tackle the newest fire threat in the city through a range of enforcement measures and with the backing of new laws from city council. Now, there's a new face of that effort. Last month, Mayor Eric Adams appointed Robert Tucker as the 35th commissioner of the Fire Department of the City of New York. Now, we're going to get to know him a little bit and learn about what the FDNY is up to when it comes to tackling these battery fires. Commissioner, welcome to WNYC.

Commissioner Robert Tucker: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really delighted to be here with Chief Flynn.

Matt Katz: Yes, that's right. Also, on the line is the city's chief fire marshal, Daniel Flynn, who is the point person when it comes to investigating these fires. He can walk us through some of the difficulties related to extinguishing and investigating the blazes. Hi, Fire Marshal Flynn. Nice to talk to you again.

Fire Marshal Daniel Flynn: Good morning. Nice to talk to you as well. Thank you for raising awareness, this important issue.

Matt Katz: Listeners, are you worried about lithium-ion battery fires? Are there e-bikes parked in your building that you're worried might explode? Are you not sure what to do with spent e-bike batteries? Any other questions for the commissioner and fire marshal? Give us a call or send us a text, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Commissioner, I thought it might be nice for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself by way of background since you're new to our listeners and to the city. Tell us about yourself so listeners can get to know you.

Commissioner Tucker: Great. Happy to do that. Thank you. It's the honor of a lifetime to be the 35th fire commissioner of the city of New York. I've been an unapologetic supporter and buff of the fire department since I was a little boy. My very first job as a summer intern was with the FDNY in the Manhattan communications office. I've been chasing fire engines on my bicycle since I was 15 years old or even younger. This has been a lifetime dream for me to work with the members of the greatest fire department in the world, our EMTs, our paramedics, our fire inspection or protection inspectors, and our firefighters. I'm just thrilled.

Matt Katz: Is it unusual for a commissioner to not have come up through the ranks as a firefighter or does that sometimes happen and you bring another skill set?

Commissioner Tucker: My predecessor didn't come up through the ranks. Great fire commissioners like Nick Scoppetta and Howard Safir and many, many others, Joe Spinnato, others didn't come up through the ranks. More commissioners have been appointed outside of the ranks than have been appointed from within the ranks, so it's definitely not unusual. I've been in the public safety business my entire professional life, whether it was as an assistant district attorney or running a large global security and investigations business. I bring skills and awareness that is new to the department and a lot of understanding of the FDNY.

Matt Katz: Are lithium-ion batteries, Commissioner, the single biggest challenge that the agency is facing right now?

Commissioner Tucker: Well, look, again, it's the greatest fire department in the world. There is no question that lithium-ion batteries are a huge priority for the FDNY to understand, to enforce, and to put out the fires they are causing. We are seeing it a lot. It's a big problem. The department has done a lot of work around lithium-ion battery legislation and fire prevention, but we have a lot more work to do.

Matt Katz: Tell us about some of the work that has happened, some of the things that the department and in conjunction really with city council has been able to get through in order to try to address this.

Commissioner Tucker: Yes, the department has offered a lot of legislation that I think Chief Flynn wants to talk about. We're doing a tremendous amount of public awareness and training, both inside our department for our members and public awareness for people about where they should and shouldn't store their e-bikes and micromobility devices, how to charge them properly, to please only buy UL-certified batteries, and most of all, not to put them on charge in places near egress or fire escapes.

Matt Katz: Chief Flynn, can you explain why extinguishing fires from these batteries isn't like, say, putting out a fire caused by a cigarette on the couch? What is the challenge for firefighters when they show up to the scene of one of these things?

Fire Marshal Flynn: Sure. When you mentioned couch fire with the cigarette, those fires start very small. It takes some time for them to fully develop. With these batteries, they go from zero to 100 in a second. It's almost like a blowtorch effect like an explosion. We don't have that time for people to recognize the danger, smell the smoke, have their smoke detector go off, and allow them to either extinguish the fire safely at an early stage of the fire or exit that building safely and let us know so we have time to come out there and extinguish it. These fires don't offer that opportunity for them. They block egress as the commissioner mentioned. They fail without warning. Just be aware of the dangers and respect them and understand that they do pose this danger.

Matt Katz: What do your firefighters do when they get out there? They can't just put a hose on it, right?

Fire Marshal Flynn: Well, when the firefighters arrive, they generally don't know that they're fighting a lithium-ion battery fire.

Matt Katz: Okay, right.

Fire Marshal Flynn: They're usually encountered with an advanced fire due to the speed that the fire travels. They're seeing a fire that's heavily advanced when they arrive, which traditionally, to us as firefighters, has presented itself almost as an incendiary fire like an arson. Now, these fires are traveling so fast when they get there that they do extend to other combustibles in the area. They're producing so much heat in such a small amount of time if you have it next to your couch. By the time the firefighters get there, they're not only fighting the lithium-ion battery fire, but they're also fighting a content fire.

Matt Katz: We have a couple of questions coming in via text message. One question, "Lots of products seem to have lithium-ion batteries now. Is it only e-bike batteries that are worrisome?"

Fire Marshal Flynn: Well, I would say that--

Commissioner Tucker: I'll take that. Sorry.

Matt Katz: Sorry, guys. Commissioner, you want to take it?

Commissioner Tucker: Sure, yes. The answer is no. We're concerned about all lithium-ion-battery-operated products. We are seeing the majority of our fire activity around micromobility devices, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't all have awareness around everything that contains a lithium-ion battery.

Matt Katz: We had another listener texting, "There is bike storage in the basement of my large Brooklyn condo building. I often see an e-bike parked down there. Are all e-bikes a risk? If not, is there a way to tell whether the bike or brand of battery is safe or potentially dangerous?" Now, e-bikes themselves are not the danger. It's when the battery is in the e-bike or when the battery itself is in the apartment, right? Is there a way for somebody to maybe see a battery charging in the basement of their building or a bike with a battery in it in their building? Is there a way for them to tell whether they should maybe call the FDNY?

Commissioner Tucker: Chief, you want to talk about UL?

Fire Marshal Flynn: Sure. Just related to that question. If you feel that something is dangerous, any dangerous condition related to fire, we encourage you to call 311 and let us know. Let us get out there and inspect it. We're the experts. We can determine whether that poses a danger or is in violation of the fire code. Don't assess that on your own. If you have that feeling and you need us to take a look at it, call 311. We pledge we'll get out there related to these lithium-ion battery complaints within 12 hours.

We also encourage everybody. When you're purchasing these devices, buy a high-quality product. Look for that UL label, Underwriters Laboratory mark. It's a U and an L in a circular pattern. Those are tested products that we believe that they will be high-quality products. Anytime you have any concerns related to fire, whether it's batteries or blocked egress, let us know. We want to go out there and we want to know about these dangers ahead of time before we're out there in fire conditions.

Matt Katz: Let's go to the phone lines. We have a question from John in Caldwell, New Jersey, related to this. Hi, John. Are you there?

John: Hi. Can you hear me? Thanks.

Matt Katz: John?

John: I'm here.

Matt Katz: Great. Thanks for calling in. What's your question?

John: This problem has been going on for a few years now. We hear about so many buildings burning. I just don't understand. Couldn't the city just make a law saying, "Look, we have to randomly check bikes on the streets. If you've got an illegal battery, we're going to give you a $5,000 fine and seize your bike"? Why can't the city just start handing out massive fines and doing random inspections?

Matt Katz: Commissioner, what do you think?

Commissioner Tucker: There is legislation locally in the city straight up to Congress. We have a bill that's been approved by Congress that's waiting the Senate side of the House. Chief Flynn has marshals out in the field every day, a task force, not just of fire marshals but of other law enforcement partners of ours. We are doing enforcement to the best of our ability. Chief, you want to talk about what's going on in the task force in the field?

Fire Marshal Flynn: Sure. To the question, the possession of these devices that don't meet that certification is not illegal at this time. It's the sale, lease, or rental of devices that don't need that UL certification that would be illegal to be sold, rented, or leased within the city. The possession of them at this time has not been made illegal. We do not say to people that you should not have these devices. We encourage safe usage of these devices.

We understand that they do provide a very important aspect of people's lives. We use them heavily in the delivery industry here, which all New Yorkers, I think, rely on from time to time. We don't want to say that these are all bad. We just want to make sure that the high-quality products are out on the streets. We encourage any legislation that would make us safer. As the commissioner mentioned, there has been legislation from the city council that we feel has been important in helping stem the tide of these fatalities and injuries.

So far, this year, we've had 37 less structural fires within the city than we had at this time last year. I think that message is getting out there. When possible, keep them outside. I know it's not possible for everybody, so just inspect them from time to time. If they're not working properly, replace the battery with a high-quality battery that is sold by the manufacturer that created that product.

As the commissioner also mentioned, we do have a task force. We go out every single day. To our knowledge, we've inspected every single location within the city that is selling these devices to make sure that they are meeting those safety standards. If you feel that location that's selling these things is not acting in a responsible manner, again, call 311. We will be out there, most likely, the next day to inspect that location.

Matt Katz: We're talking with Fire Commissioner Robert Tucker and Fire Marshal Daniel Flynn. We're talking about e-bike battery fires. Commissioner, can you talk a little bit about the battery-swapping programs? The chief was just talking about trying to keep your batteries outside of your home. We know that most of these fires, from what I've read, actually start when they're not even plugged in inside the house. People want to keep them outside their home. It's not necessarily a place to do that. That's why the city has been piloting this battery-swapping technology where people can just go to a cabinet on the side of the street and take their used battery and put it in there and take out a fresh battery, right?

Commissioner Tucker: Yes. This is a think-out-of-the-box solution that we're going to have to pilot and we are piloting it currently. We're not going to solve this problem traditionally. We're going to have to bring creativity to it. Battery swapping is one idea that we're trying. There are lots of new ideas that we're looking at. We're thinking about this problem at all altitudes and angles. We are going to use ideas like swapping as one of the solutions to keep these batteries out of dwellings.

Matt Katz: We're going to see some more of these battery-swapping cabinets on city sidewalks in the coming years?

Commissioner Tucker: Yes, I believe we will. We'll see lots of new solutions, not just those swapping cabinets but other new creative concepts that are being offered to us. It's a process like everything else and we are open to out-of-the-box thinking.

Matt Katz: I want to change gears briefly. The FDNY is not just made up of firefighters, of course. Paramedics, EMTs, people that ride our ambulances are also part of the FDNY. I've done some reporting about how they've complained that they don't make the same amount of money as other first responders. Very low-starting wages, which has, they say, led to some attrition in the ranks, harder to attract talent. Commissioner, what's your position on pay parity for ambulance workers? Is that where they'd be able to make the same as other uniformed first responders in the city? Is that something that might happen? I know there's a contract under negotiation. Is that something you might support--

Commissioner Tucker: First of all, let me just say that our EMTs and paramedics are doing incredible work in pre-hospital care, really nation-leading work. We've got a lot of experience there, a lot of great EMTs, paramedics who have risen up into the management ranks. I'm very, very proud of EMS and how we deliver that service to New York. I'm extremely focused on delivering that service at a faster and even higher quality than we currently are.

I'm going to work very closely with Chief Mike Fields and the team at EMS to bring the best possible solutions to some of the challenges that we face. Look, pay is a challenge. The fire commissioner doesn't set the pay. This is a collectively bargained process and I don't sit at the table. All I can say is that the men and women at EMS are unbelievable heroes. They are saving lives every single hour in New York City. They are a critical part of the FDNY and a group of people I have a great deal of respect for.

Matt Katz: You said you're hoping for faster services in terms of response times. Response times have gone up, at least in May. When I last looked, they were pretty high at early COVID levels. What's your focus there? What do you hope to do?

Commissioner Tucker: We're always looking at response times, both on the fire side and on the EMS side, and ways we can increase the amount of time. Every second counts when a medical emergency is underway. New York City is a congested city with both cars and people. Getting through the streets of New York, even in an emergency response mode, is difficult. The cars often don't have a place to move for an ambulance. We are focused on figuring out ways to get pre-hospital care to emergencies faster and more efficiently.

Matt Katz: We're going to take one more caller back on the battery fire issue before we let you guys go. Richard in Babylon. Hi, Richard. Thanks for calling in to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Richard: Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to ask my question. One of my major concerns was the MTA, some time ago, allowed for the inclusion of battery-operated bikes and scooters on their commuter trains and I believe even on the subway cars. That really concerns me, considering these batteries can be very explosive as you've indicated.

In a crowded commuter rail car, there could be 120-plus people if there's not many standards. There's absolutely no way of escaping. I don't know how the FDNY would actually be able to approach a situation like that in one of the river tunnels or even in one of the major stations at Grand Central or at Penn Station. I was just wondering if the MTA and FDNY ever coordinated the permissions for those bikes and scooters to be allowed on the trains and subway cars.

Matt Katz: Really interesting question. Thanks a lot, Richard.

Commissioner Tucker: I've been the commissioner for three weeks. Thank you for that question. I'm going to let Chief Flynn talk about the good relationship the FDNY has with the MTA.

Fire Marshal Flynn: Thank you. We share your concern obviously. As I mentioned, these things fail extremely quickly. We have been in contact with the MTA many times. We have some testing that we're going to conduct very soon to test what those effects would be. We have shared our concerns with them as well. We think that the batteries that are failing really are these low-quality products.

Getting back to the root of this, if we do have those battery-swapping programs, if we're making sure that the high-quality products are sold here in the city, I think we'll see a huge decline in the number of fires that we have. I certainly share your concern with that issue on the MTA. MTA has been a partner of ours. We've launched an ad campaign actually on the MTA itself, letting people know about the dangers of these fires.

Just our fire safety education alone. Since 2021, we've doubled the amount of presentations that we've done through our educational outreach and presentations. In 2023, our fire safety education unit coordinated over 2,500 presentations, engaging over 450,000 New Yorkers. We partnered with the Red Cross to install smoke detectors. 250,000 smoke alarms have been installed in 65,000 homes.

We do share your concern. I think the safety messaging and the high-quality products that are out there, I think, should probably make this problem very small. We're working towards that and I think we're doing a good job. Our fire fatalities so far this year related to these products were at three. Of course, any fatality is too many. This time last year, we were at 14.

We've made significant progress in the injuries and fire fatalities this year. 60% of the time, these batteries fail while not charging too. I just want to put out that message before we wrap. Don't feel that sense of security that if you're not charging it, you're safe. They always pose that danger. Just know that while they're not charging, they still pose that same danger.

Matt Katz: Fire Marshal Daniel Flynn, thanks for sharing your expertise. Fire Commissioner Robert Tucker, congratulations on your new role. Thanks to you both for coming on the show and talking FDNY and battery fires with us.

Commissioner Tucker: Thanks for having us.

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