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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Later in the show today, we'll talk about how two news stories in the last 24 hours show how transgender people are being put in a political vice, a legal and medical catch-22, you might say. To give you a brief preview, because I don't see other people tying these two stories together yet. The LPGA, the Ladies Professional Golf Association, and the USGA announced a rule yesterday that beginning next month, no transgender golfer will be allowed to compete unless they had medically transitioned to female before hitting puberty.

No transgender golfer will be allowed to compete unless they had medically transitioned to female before hitting puberty. The league said they wanted to balance competitive fairness with respecting people's identities. Their medical inquiry concluded that the effects of male puberty confer competitive advantages, so they set the bar there. Beginning January 1st, no transgender golfer will be allowed to compete unless they had medically transitioned to female before hitting puberty.

People are debating that standard, but let's say it's fair. Here's the catch-22. The Supreme Court yesterday heard arguments about a Tennessee law that would ban puberty blockers and other gender-affirming medical care for anyone under 18. See the problem? See the catch-22? You can't compete at your sport unless you block male puberty before it occurs, but the law in Tennessee makes that illegal at the necessary age.

By the way, it's not just Tennessee. By NPR's count, 24 states, half the country, in the last three years, 24 states-- it's almost half the country, all controlled by Republicans, now restrict doctors from providing puberty blockers, hormone therapies or surgery to transgender minors. By the way, that's regardless if they have the consent and advocacy of their parents. Aspiring transgender athletes are required to do something and they are prohibited from doing it. If you don't know what a catch-22 is, look it up. That is a catch-22.

Later in the show, legal analyst Kate Shaw will talk about the Supreme Court hearing. Sports journalist Jane McManus will talk about the LPGA aspect. One way to look at that story in a broader political context is this, elections have consequences. Elections can have major consequences if you're a member of a despised minority. 24 states with Republican legislators rushing to ban puberty blockers. Legislatures, I should say, rushing to ban puberty blockers and other gender-affirming medical care for anyone under 18 is one example.

Another is the coming mass deportation program that might seek to round up thousands or millions of people here illegally, even if they pay their taxes and have never committed a crime.

Now, let's stipulate that deportation of convicted violent criminals who are here illegally launches one debate. Mass deportation of otherwise law-abiding people launches another one. Well, Mayor Adams, despite cozying up to the Trump deportation program in recent public statements, as we've covered, is reportedly taking at least one major step behind the scenes to protect people. The news organization, THE CITY, reports that the Adams administration is quietly removing National Guard troops from shelters that house migrants.

Quietly removing National Guard troops from shelters that house migrants. Why? They fear that Trump might nationalize the New York National Guard troops and use them to arrest the very people they've been stationed there to protect. Maybe that's another catch-22. Let's talk about that now and other ways for undocumented immigrants to protect themselves from mass deportation. We'll invite your calls in just a minute too.

If you need advice about this from our guest, Murad Awawdeh, president and CEO at the New York Immigration Coalition, a coalition of over 200 immigrants rights organizations throughout New York State. Murad, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Murad Awawdeh: Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll talk advocacy and government policy with Murad Awawdeh, but you can also call during this segment and ask him for advice at 212-433-WNYC. This is a combination policy and advice segment. If you are worried about yourself or anyone you know who might be a target of the coming mass deportation program, especially if they're otherwise law-abiding, what are you wondering about how to protect yourself or someone you know, or maybe how to protect your children if, let's say, you suddenly get detained and they don't?

I've heard people talk about this kind of scenario. The kids come home from school one day and the parents have been disappeared or any other scenario you want to ask about at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text with your questions. Murad, can I start on that news about New York City and the National Guard troops at migrant shelters? Can you confirm if the city is withdrawing those troops over fears that Trump could use them to detain the occupants for deportation?

Murad Awawdeh: Well, I can't confirm that because I'm not a representative of the city or the administration, but this is something that we have been asking the mayor and the city to do. In addition to removing the National Guards, also shutting down the HERRCs, the massive sites where they've been housing new New Yorkers in, our newest New Yorkers who have come to New York City over the past year or two. Really, the HERRC system was created as a separate and unequal system, so we applauded the city's announcement.

They've been shutting down some of the sites because over the past several months, we've seen significantly less people come to New York City because of the Biden border policies that have been instituted earlier this year. We continue to ask the city not only to remove the National Guard from the shelters, but also ensure that they're closing all the HERRCs and really absorbing the people who are still in their care in the historical shelter system. Granted, that system is also in need of fixing, but it's a much better system, which has amazing health and safety standards as well as support services that help people really get on their feet.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious if at the New York Immigration Coalition, you supported or opposed the deployment of those National Guard troops in the first place. I imagine you don't like militarization of shelters, but I think the mayor argued it was to protect the majority of migrants in those shelters from the few who might put them in danger. Where have you been on that?

Murad Awawdeh: I think as an organization, we were against the deployment of the National Guard to the shelters. Again, we have a shelter system. This administration went and created a separate and unequal one that pretty much was just pretty much large spaces, intense and empty buildings that just put hundreds and thousands of cots right alongside each other, where we were really astounded at what is to happen if someone did get sick. Then that then became a really big public health issue because we didn't have separation. We had so many people living amongst each other. This entire structure that was created, including the National Guard, was completely unnecessary.

Brian Lehrer: Is it your understanding that Trump, or maybe a potential Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth or whoever, could nationalize a state National Guard and then use them in that way to literally arrest the people they've been stationed there to protect?

Murad Awawdeh: Look, one thing that we have seen the Trump administration in their first round do is not really care very much for the law. That is something that they have threatened. Using National Guard and using the military, the army, to actually do this as well, and trying to deputize local law enforcement, we're just taking Trump at his word and his record. He really has promised mass separation and deportation of families and threaten not just the lives of immigrants, but also the lives of American families. It's going to hugely negatively impact our economy.

The force that they're trying to come up with is going to really sow mass hysteria, which it already has in our communities with mass fear. We have over 28 million US residents and over 1.7 million New Yorkers who live in mixed status and undocumented households who are going to be at risk of family separation. You know this, Brian, you even discussed this before. Immigrant New Yorkers have been contributing over $68 billion in taxes and have the spending power of over $153 billion to $200 billion per year.

I think for the moment we're living, we're trying to ensure that we have learned from the lessons of Trump 1.0 of the horrifying agenda that he implemented then with the Muslim ban and then an African ban, which really separated families, even those with permanent status. I'm not sure if you recall when we rallied and mobilized to JFK to free the people who were detained who were green card holders. These are permanent residents of the United States.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we covered that at the time.

Murad Awawdeh: All the way to family separation, of removing children, babies from their parents, from their mothers and their fathers, we remember their screams in the detention facilities. To this day, 1,400 children have not been reunited with their families. Trump created 1,400 orphans through that single policy. That's the number we know. It may be larger and it's outrageous that we are still in this position. We fear that the Trump administration will be more adept at accomplishing their goals this time around because they now have the experience of time and planning with Project 2025.

Brian Lehrer: Murad Awawdeh with us, president and CEO at the New York Immigration Coalition as we talk policy and talk advice for undocumented, primarily otherwise law-abiding people here illegally on the coming mass deportation and what you might need to know or need to do to protect yourselves from that. 212-433-WNYC. If you want to call or text, 212-433-9692.

Here's a text with a question, Murad. Listener asks, should DACA recipients worried about it being rescinded on executive order, should DACA recipients renew before Trump comes into office, even if expiration date isn't anywhere near?

Murad Awawdeh: Well, what we did see in Trump's first administration is that he is the one who rescinded DACA and it's currently in the court system and I urge everyone who has a temporary status or is in the process of renewing or applying for a new status to really confer with an immigration attorney as quickly as they can. If you do have, I am not an immigration attorney, but I urge you to speak to someone who is. The advice I would get is if your status is about to expire, you should have already renewed, but if you haven't, now is your time to do so and submitting that and making sure that it gets into USCIS as quickly as possible.

Brian Lehrer: I'll tell you a story from my own circles. I've mentioned this before. I have a friend, a legal immigrant, who came to me after the election and asked about a relative of theirs who has been here 18 years. Don't know the person, but I'm told been here 18 years, works and pays income taxes, has two kids, one brought here with the person at age 2 and has grown up as an American, the other born here. This person has no criminal record. My friend wanted to know, is this person at risk from Trump's deportation program?

Murad, you know much more than I would how to assess that person's risk. What might you say if all those details I gave are accurate? Here 18 years, no criminal records, works, pays income taxes, has two kids who've grown up here, one born here. At risk?

Murad Awawdeh: I think everyone is at risk, people with status, people without status. This administration has made it very clear that their intent is sowing fear across our country. Their point is cruelty. It's not security. Their goal of deporting 20 million immigrants in the United States, regardless of their status, is the point they're trying to make. They're not only going after folks with and without status, they're going after our rights, our constitutional rights, like birthright citizenship, and drastically trying to restrict the ability of millions of US citizen children to have access to critical public benefits and really militarizing immigration enforcement.

That's why even the advice I would give to this person is consult an immigration attorney as quickly as you can, but also know your rights if you can't, as quickly as you can. That's why at the New York Immigration Coalition, we're trying to Trump-proof New York State and New York City. At the state level, we're trying to pass the New York for All Act, a landmark bill that would stop Trump's deportation machine and keep our families together while keeping our communities and economy strong.

It really is about making sure that we're keeping New York's workforce strong and that we're keeping our families together. The act would explicitly prevent local law enforcement and state agencies from colluding with ICE to deport our immigrant neighbors unless there was a judicial warrant. We call on Governor Kathy Hochul, who has an opportunity right now, before Donald Trump takes office, to recommit her unwavering support for immigrant communities.

We have a state executive order, but we think that that doesn't go far enough. We need the New York for All Act to get legislated and be passed in the state and then her signing it. At the city level, we already have amazing laws on the books. We have protections that are really strong for immigrants who live here. Unfortunately, you know, we know how people operate, so we want to make sure that we continue to have our sanctuary laws and policies strong and protected.

Unfortunately, it's not clear where Mayor Eric Adams stands as he continues to scapegoat immigrants for all of his issues and has questioned just recently the right to due process and other constitutional protections afforded to anyone who lives in the United States, regardless of their immigration status. We need more clarity from the mayor on how he plans to protect our communities. New Yorkers should have no doubt about how their neighbors who were born in different countries will be treated in our city. No immigrant should feel afraid to live in a public life here in New York.

Brian Lehrer: Claire in Hartsdale, I think has a story and a question somewhat similar to the one that I just posed. Claire, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Claire: Thank you. Can you hear me all right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Claire: Good. Well, this woman who's from Paraguay and her husband-- well, he's the gardener, she cleans and she cleans different people's houses. She's been here 30 years. She has two children born here. The day after the election, she spent the whole day crying. I'd like to be able to tell her-- the only thing I could tell her was to go to maketheroad.com because I think they help people. She's had a lawyer for years, paying, paying, paying. I don't know what to tell her. I really wanted her to be safe. She doesn't want to go back to Paraguay. 30 years here.

Also, has anybody ever been able to tell Trump exactly to his face what he's doing? Does he know what he's doing? Is anybody informing him of the cruelty of what he's actually doing? Maybe he's not even aware. The people who have children born here or people that are married to people here or whatever, that they deserve to stay. Maybe he doesn't really know the facts.

Brian Lehrer: The person you know, Claire, who's been here 30 years, has a lawyer and is going through legal channels to try to get legal status.

Claire: Yes, but it's been over 30 years of paying a lawyer. I think she needs a new lawyer or she needs to go to maketheroad.com. Something's not working.

Murad Awawdeh: I would strongly urge her to call the Office of New Americans, which is a state office, an agency here in New York, to actually get connected to a nonprofit organization that's providing immigration legal services at free or very low cost. Because if she's had a lawyer for 30 years, something feels off about that. Again, it's called the Office of New Americans. She can call the number, which is 1-800-566-7636, and they'll be able to provide her with legal help and potentially refer her to get free legal assistance in the process.

Claire's example is the example of millions of people across this country. Here in the state of New York, we have over a million people who are currently undocumented and we have not had immigration reform or a pathway to legalization for over 37 years. The last time it happened was under President Ronald Reagan, and that's what we had been fighting for, is for a pathway to legalization for people who are undocumented in this country and are contributing to this country and making New York, New York City, New York State what it is.

Immigrant communities have continued to power our local economy and state economy forward and into the future. Not too long ago, we were going through Covid, and I remember every single night at 7:00 PM, people would go out their window with their pots and pans and clink them together, thanking essential workers, which the vast majority of them were immigrants.

It's just really unfortunate that we find ourselves in this moment, but what we need to do is ensure that we have stronger protections for our communities, we have more programming that's going to support them. Another bill that we're fighting for at the state level is Access to Representation so that people have immigration legal assistance when they need it. This year, we're asking the state to invest $165 million to ensure that people who need and can't afford an immigration attorney can get that.

Also making sure that Claire's friend has access to knowing what their rights are. For those who are out there looking for information, visit our website nyic.org/kyr which stands for know your rights. The website again is nyic.org/knowyourrights. It's really critically important that people know what their rights are when approached by immigration enforcement. Everyone residing in the US regardless to their immigration status has rights. Knowledge is power. It's important that every immigrant New Yorker and their allies understand what their rights are.

If you have any contact with ICE or border patrol agents, you can say, "I wish to exercise my fifth Amendment right and remain silent. I do not wish to speak with you or answer questions. I do not consent to you entering my home, vehicle, or private area and workplace without a judicial warrant signed by a judge." Often ICE says that they have a warrant, even if it's actually an administrative document from ICE which they printed themselves, which is not legally binding, and the court system has said it's not legally binding. When in doubt--

Brian Lehrer: This is so important. How would an individual at their front door know the difference between a warrant and a judicial warrant and a different kind of less binding document?

Murad Awawdeh: The clear critical piece that you would be looking for is if a judge signed the document. You can go to our website nyic.org/kyr which would also illustrate the two separate types of documents. When in doubt, don't open the door and you can say, "I do not give permission to search my home or any of my belongings. If I am detained, I want to contact my attorney immediately. I refuse to sign anything without advice from an attorney and I do not wish to tell you of my immigration status."

I think people knowing their rights is incredibly critical. If there is one thing that we could be doing right now is ensuring that every single person across the city and the State of New York knows what their legal rights are and that they are confident enough to exercise them when approached, if they are ever approached by immigration enforcement.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of follow-ups to the caller, Claire, who asked, "Is Trump aware? Is anybody actually telling him how cruel these policies are?" Two different people from two different phone numbers wrote the exact same words, "The cruelty is the point." To the caller on now, one of them wrote, "The cruelty is the point." Here's a clip to people like the one who I mentioned and the one who Claire mentioned. A lot of overlap in those stories. Here's a clip of Republican New York City Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis on our show last week, a Trump and deportation supporter generally, but seeming to say she doesn't want or doesn't predict that law-abiding long time undocumented New Yorkers will be swept into this campaign. Listen.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: If they were going to go after people who've been here for a long time and have not committed a crime, that should not be where the priority is, and I don't think that's where it will be.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Malliotakis here last week. How reassured are you, Murad, by that coming from someone like Congresswoman Malliotakis?

Murad Awawdeh: I am not reassured at all. Congressman Malliotakis is someone who has two immigrant parents and has been one of the most anti-immigrant legislators when she was in the assembly, and now as a Congress member. I think that we see this double-talk that often happens depending on which audience that they're speaking to. It's not just Congressman Nicole Malliotakis, it's others as well who do this, who are elected. I think that the Trump administration, and this is why I think the conversation is so critical to have right now, is because they're not clearly saying what their prioritization is.

What they're saying very abundantly clear is we are prioritizing everyone. When they say we're trying to prioritize people who are criminals, well, what defines a criminal? Most people interact with law enforcement because they get a moving violation or they're a street vendor trying to make a living. Our smallest businesses are street vendors. That's how they start. Macy started as a street vendor. If you get ticketed as a street vendor, that puts you in the pathway to becoming deported simply for trying to earn money and build your life here.

I think that the fact of the matter is that what we are trying to do right now is ensure that everyone has the information that they need, that they're getting the support that they need and preparing for whatever's to come. We just heard Tom Homan two Sundays ago say, how is he [unintelligible 00:25:29]--

Brian Lehrer: Trump's new "border czar." Go ahead, Tom Homan.

Murad Awawdeh: When asked how is he going to ensure that there isn't any family separation, similarly to the policy that he implemented under the first Trump administration, he said, "Well, there won't be family separation because I'm going to deport the parents with their kids." That's what they're saying, and this is the man that Donald Trump has appointed as his border and deportation czar. Again, we take them at their word because their record has shown that their word ends up being what they're going to implement. We wanted to be as prepared as Possible.

This is New York City. This is New York State. We have strong laws here to protect our communities, but at the end of the day, ICE will do what ICE did does. We have to just make sure that we are doing what we can to defend and protect our communities in this moment.

Brian Lehrer: To that scenario, when you mentioned family separation and deporting children with their parents, to that scenario that I mentioned at the top that I've heard people talking about, this horrific, nightmarish scenario where kids come home from school one day and find that their parents have been disappeared. I heard on another show somebody warned that parents should begin to make arrangements for who would get custody of their kids if the parents get disappeared. I don't know if Tom Homan's statement that you just quoted there should be reassuring in some weird way because the families wouldn't be separated, the kids would be taken too.

Do you think that parents should be preparing alternative custody arrangements that that scenario that I laid out as a potential might actually take place here in New York or elsewhere?

Murad Awawdeh: I don't know if Tom Homan's plan of deporting entire families is going to actually work. That example that you gave at the top of the show of a parent dropping off their kid at school in the morning and then the kid getting out of school and no one's home, like the parent has been disappeared is a real threat and something that we have also been preparing for with family planning and preparation.

We'll be putting more information out about this. Off the top, things that people should be thinking about in that moment and things that they should be planning for immediately right now is having emergency contacts memorized in their heads because when ICE does arrest someone or detain them, they confiscate their phone and you won't have access to it anymore. Immediately start looking for a lawyer that can offer you counsel. Memorize your lawyer's number, keep it original documents of immigration paperwork safe. Save money. I know that that's hard, especially with the affordability crisis that we've all been facing, but just save money as much as you can.

Assign a trusted family member or friend to care for your children and update the pickup authorization for who can pick up your child from school with the school system after you designate who that person is going to be. Obtain help from the country of origin's consulate, if that's something that you can do and then obtain and carry ID New York City or a New York State driver's license because you need to have identification on you at all times and making sure that you have that is going to be super helpful for yourself.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Murad from the New York Immigration Coalition and more of your calls asking for advice as we talk in this segment, primarily about undocumented immigrants who the Trump administration says they will go after. Well, there's no administration yet, let's say the Trump campaign said, and we'll see how much this was campaign rhetoric to generate turnout and how much they're really serious about it, that they would be rounding up people here illegally who have not committed crimes. That's our primary topic today with Murad Awawdeh from the New York Immigration Coalition.

Your questions. 212-433-WNYC. We'll take more calls. We'll take more texts when we continue in a minute. Murad, I'm also going to want to ask you, you brought up the vendors, about Tom Homan's prediction that they will stage workplace raids. I'm curious how many workplaces you think that might pertain to? How far down that pecking order of bigger or smaller workplaces, kids in the subway selling flowers, they may stop and ask their immigration status. We'll talk about that and more and finish up with Murad from the Immigration Coalition right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue on both policy and advice for undocumented immigrants fearing Trump's mass deportation plan, especially those here without criminal records. 212-433-WNYC. If you want to ask any piece of advice for yourself or someone you know, 212-433-9692, or you can also text that number. Some of our questions have been coming in on our text thread. Our guest, Murad Awawdeh from the New York Immigration Coalition. He's the president and CEO. A number of people have asked for you to repeat the number that you gave earlier for the Office of New Americans. Would you remind people again what that office is and then give that number again?

Murad Awawdeh: Yes. The New York State Office of New Americans is an amazing resource at the state level that operates out of the Department of State for New York State, not to confuse it with the other Department of State at the federal level, but this is an office out of a state agency that helps new Americans and immigrants. It's called the Office of New Americans. The number is 1-800-566-7636. They're able to provide legal help. They're in our communities. They have multiple sites across the state.

We work very closely with the Office of New Americans. All calls are confidential and anonymous. They speak over 200 languages. They're open Monday to Friday, 9:00 AM to 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time. Folks who want answers to immigration and naturalization questions, referrals for free legal help and programs. Information about nearby opportunity centers can also be found through the hotline or on their website, which is a little bit long. So I think the hotline is better. That's also where you can report fraud and scams against immigrants and immigrant communities.

They have amazing programs and we're huge advocates of this office, and they do amazing work across the State of New York. Again, the number is 1-800-566-7636.

Brian Lehrer: On come home and saying the families, the parents and the children will be deported together, listener writes, "If parents are being deported but their kids have been born here, how could the kids get deported if they're citizens?"

Murad Awawdeh: That's a great question. This is why we're saying that their plans do not explicitly only target immigrants. They're also targeting American families. They're targeting US citizens as well. Tom Homan's comments are incredibly ridiculous. Again, their point is not about security or safety. It's about cruelty. Immigrants have been scapegoated for years at this point. The Trump campaign back in 2015, 2016, their main highlight was tapping into people's anger, rightful anger, and outrage about government failures and not actually getting the support people needed to have the boogeyman be immigrants. They continued that this time around.

Donald Trump didn't win on a mandate of mass deportation. He won because people are feeling the economic pinch. They're feeling the affordability crisis, and no one was really speaking to that. What people remembered, and this is what we've heard and exit polls have said this, is that the economy and affordability was the number one thing for many of the voters. I think for a big part of this, a lot of the focus needs to be on really helping everyone who calls this country home actually be able to have better opportunities to not only survive, but to thrive here.

The focus has been and will continue, unfortunately, to be right now on mass deportation and deportations, because this is part and parcel to this nationalistic agenda that some of the people who support Trump are pushing, even though that that's not the mandate that voters were saying or pushing. What also Trump did was the reason why people have less money in their pockets now is because of his tax plan that he passed where the lower income and middle income folks were going to start getting taxed more and corporations were going to get taxed less.

It's a weird moment that we're living in. I think that it's an interesting place where we have to actually continue to push forward, get out accurate information and push back against the disinformation that we keep seeing happen day in and day out.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you mentioned what the mandate is and what the mandate isn't from voters. I've taken a very close look at the exit polls. We were talking about this on the show the other day. The two overwhelming issues for people, about 35% of the voters each listed the economy and democracy as their number one issue in this election. About 35% said democracy. About 35% said economy. Those who said the economy voted overwhelmingly for Trump. Those who said democracy voted overwhelmingly for Harris. Then abortion rights and immigration were down there tied for third and fourth with about 12% or 13% or 14% only of the people saying that either of those things was their number one issue.

There was one other poll finding in the exit polls. I got this from the NBC News exit poll the other day and actually put this in my newsletter that's going to come out this afternoon, our Thursday, Brian Lehrer Show newsletter, that it's questionable if Trump won on a mandate for mass deportation because they asked the question in the exit poll, "Do you support allowing people here illegally to apply for citizenship? Do you allow, do you support allowing people who are here illegally to apply for citizenship?" Yes beat no by 14 points. That is not a mandate for mass deportation.

I wonder if the Trump team goes too far and it could happen very quickly, whether there will be a mass backlash to mass deportation like there was, as you remind us, Murad, in the first term, when family separation became the issue that it became. A few of the people like we've been talking about on this program today being grabbed and there could be a backlash really quick that that would be massive. I wonder if you have any thought about that.

Murad Awawdeh: Yes, I think that the election results are not a mandate for cruelty. A majority of Americans support pragmatic and humane approaches to fixing our immigration system. When people are presented options, they always choose the humane one. For example, when given the choice, 63% to 66% of voters have chosen passing a law to provide permanent legal status to longtime undocumented immigrants compared to 30%-ish who want mass deportation.

I think that the piece here is this is where the rubber is going to have to hit the road, and what this incoming administration is going to do. If they're going to go to be the cruelest that they can be and not only harming our community members, our communities, devastating families and devastating our economy, an economy that's still fragile and still being rebuilt, to wanting to deliver on a promise that they really can't even deliver fully, but actually doing their big splashes to scare people. I think at the end of the day, what we need to be focused on on is pushing every level of government to step up and do the right thing.

When we are able to deliver for everyone who calls this country home, everyone benefits. It's not about choosing one way or the other. We live in the richest city in one of the richest states in the richest country in the world and we have people who can't afford to buy eggs and milk. That makes no sense.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a couple more calls in here before we run out of time. Megan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Megan?

Megan: Hi. Thanks for taking the call. I am calling on behalf of a large group called Floyd Bennett Field Neighbors. That's a very large group of well-networked individuals who are advocates for immigrants as well as residents at the Floyd Bennett Field HERRC shelter, which is a series of four tents on the edge of a floodplain. It's very cold there right now. What we're actually calling for is the rehoming of those 500 families and the closure of that tent.

We believe, because it's on federal land, that the tent is going to be a target for mass deportation and possibly detention. It's set up where it is. It's so isolated that you could easily turn that into a detention facility, and so we're very worried about these 500 families and we're working and organizing with them to get that shelter closed immediately and everybody rehomed before January 15th.

Brian Lehrer: Murad, that's a really relevant question as well as the humanity in that situation with those hundreds of families. Because it's federal property, could it become a target of mass deportation very quickly?

Murad Awawdeh: Yes and no at the same time. Yes, I 100% agree with the caller. We need to shut down Floyd Bennett Field. It was we, again, as the NYIC, the New York Immigration Coalition, had been ardently against the creation of the HERRCs, not just because they're massive tent structures, but because they're a separate and unequal system. They don't have the same health and safety standards as our historical shelter system. Again, I don't want to say that our historical shelter system is perfect, because it wasn't, but it does have better protections and better services that help people get on their feet.

Yes, we need to shut down all of the HERRCs, including Floyd Bennett Field, and making sure that we reabsorb people who still need a little bit of support to get on their feet so that we are not making it easier. We do have-- even if it's on federal land, it just means that ICE will be able to operate on that land, but because it is a shelter, it is a sensitive location. This is what we've been asking the city as well, is ensuring that every city agency as well as their contractors know what the processes and protocols are if ICE were to show up.

Brian Lehrer: Let me sneak in one more, and I think that answer was pretty thorough, so I'm going to jump in and sneak in one more call before we run out of time because I said we would talk about Trump's border czar, Tom Homan's prediction that there would be workplace raids. Shane in Nassau county. You're on WNYC. Hi, Shane?

Shane: Hey, Brian. Good to speak with you again. I actually called in a couple weeks ago Monday morning quarterbacking the Harris loss, and you cut me off because you thought I said a bad word on the air.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, and then I apologize. Then I apologize because we misheard you. I remember that. I apologize to you again.

Shane: Thanks. I had a good laugh with the producer afterwards, so thank you for taking my call again. I have a couple businesses and I have people that come to me looking for work. If they're immigrants, one of the first things I ask is, "Are you legal?" Meaning do you have a Social Security number? If they do, great, I can put them on the books. If not, then they want to be paid cash. I do not feel comfortable paying people cash. I can get in trouble, they can get in trouble. There's workers comp, things like that that they wouldn't be eligible for.

I think there's an opportunity here for ways for immigrants to get some kind of a Social Security number, maybe a special Social Security number so these folks can get on the books, make money, contribute to their families. Again, you talked about earlier the indirect economic impact of them taking money and spending in their communities at the local deli and grocery store. More importantly, if we want to increase tax revenue in this country, why not start with getting people to pay taxes through payroll?

Brian Lehrer: Shane, I have to leave it there because the segment's just about over. I'm cutting you off again, but this time not for mishearing you saying a bad word that you didn't say, so keep calling us. Murad, very briefly on that, like in our last 30 seconds to Shane's point. Also, how should people protect themselves in their workplaces? I mean, are we talking about individual construction sites? Are we talking about every restaurant in New York City? Are we talking about people on the side of the road selling flowers and kids in the subway selling candy? What are we talking about here?

Murad Awawdeh: To Shane's point, we have a huge workforce shortage, not just here in the State of New York, but across this country, and the best solution is to provide a pathway to legalization for people who are undocumented. That is our real solution to addressing not just our workforce challenges, but our economic challenges as well, because more people working in the system is always better for our global community. On the workplace raids question, there's two types of different things that may or may not happen. There may be an ICE raid at a workplace or I-9 audit. They're both very different and they do different things.

I think that for every workplace that is employing immigrants, they should definitely ensure that they have counsel from a lawyer on what to do in that moment, but specifically for if ICE were to show up at a workplace, any public area in a workplace, ICE agents can enter, but they can't enter it. It does not give them the authority to stop, question, and arrest just anyone. They have to be looking for someone. No one can enter a private area of the business without the permission of the employer or without a judicial warrant.

Right now, employers should be definitely looking to seeking legal counsel. For folks who are interested, check out the National Immigration Law Center's website on a guide for employers what to do if immigration comes to your workplace. It's hugely helpful. The website is nilc.org. Amazing organization, the National Immigration Law Center, that has a guide for employers on what to do if ICE shows up to your workplace.

Yes, that is a more splashier way of them actually targeting people is through workplace raids or I-9 audits. At the same time, flooding a place like New York City to make a point in saying that they're going after sanctuary cities.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I'm going to give the New York Immigration Coalition's know your rights web page address one more time here. If you need to write it down, get ready as we thank our guest, Murad Awawdeh, who is the president and CEO of the New York Immigration Coalition. That webpage of theirs is NYIC for New York Immigration Coalition, nyic.org/kyr. Kyr stands for know your rights. nyic.org/kyr. Murad, thanks for today.

Murad Awawdeh: Thank you.

 

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