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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As many of you know, we've been inviting the candidates in the June primaries for mayor of New York and governor of New Jersey to come on with us and answer my questions and yours. We have our latest guest in that series now, the Mayor of Newark, Ras Baraka, running in the Democratic primary for governor. Mr. Mayor, thanks very much for joining us for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Baraka: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: New Jersey listeners, your questions welcome for mayor and gubernatorial hopeful Ras Baraka at 212-433-WNYC. Call or text your question, 212-433-9692. I'll give you a general platform to start out. You're the mayor of the state's largest city. What do you think you offer the rest of the state if you say you're the best candidate to be their governor?

Mayor Baraka: Well, we have executive experience, that's clear. I've been the mayor of Newark for 11 years, a principal, school teacher for over 23 years, a councilman for 4. We have some of the most intractable and difficult issues in the state of New Jersey right here in Newark. If the state has a cold, Newark has the flu. The issues that we've mitigated in Newark are statewide issues around housing, homelessness, access to broadband, lowering healthcare costs, finding opportunity to bring small businesses in, investing in Black and brown, and women businesses.

Everything that we're talking about statewide is happening in Newark, even the pushback against what's happening nationally coming out of the White House, attack on our immigrant community, attack on our LGBTQ community. We've stood up strong here and we've been fighting since day one against this kind of repression against the Constitution of the United States, the rolling back of our democracy. We've been fighting very hard in Newark against that. We've been ground zero in some cases in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: There's a quote at the top of your campaign website, "We will deconstruct the state budget and reassemble with equity as our north star, judging every decision as either a step towards equity or a step towards inequity." We know Donald Trump won't like you centering equity. Right below that, your site says, "By prioritizing economic growth, educational advancement, housing accessibility, and inclusive policies, he," meaning you, "seeks to empower every resident to thrive and contribute to the state's prosperity."

You're putting two-thirds of DEI; equity and inclusion, those words pretty front and center. Would you like to talk about why and also talk about some of your top policies to advance those values?

Mayor Baraka: The why to me is simple. I think your economy can't grow unless it's diverse and inclusive. 48% of the population of New Jersey identifies as mixed race or nonwhite. It just makes no sense not to have diversity and equity in it. New Jersey has some deep inequity. A blue state like New Jersey, the wealth gap is very big. Access to healthcare and opportunity, education are huge. I think closing those gaps helps our economy, grows our communities, gives people access to the middle class, and helps us grow as a state.

It makes no sense for us to go into reverse. I think major corporations know that that also doesn't make sense. They just bend the knee under this kind of repression of what's happening out of the White House. I think what's happening that Donald Trump is doing is wrong. It is crazy. It's moving us backward instead of forward.

I think the right thing to do for us is to begin to lean into diversity, lean into equity, and lean into inclusion. We're going to do that because not only is it right socially and morally, it's the right thing to do economically. We know the state of New Jersey only invests less than 1% of its dollars in Black, brown, and women businesses. That has to be changed, especially since these businesses are the fastest-growing businesses in the state, probably in the country. Latino businesses represent 20% of the labor force of this state. Makes no sense for us not to be investing in these businesses, not to help them grow, hire more people, advance into more areas that are economically distressed. That's what we should be working on. That's what I'm going to do.

Making sure we attack segregation in our school systems, like beginning to combine school districts, create unified school districts, give school districts money for diversifying their population. We need to do these things immediately. Not only does it help us, again, socially helps us, economically. The work that we're doing is not centered on what Donald Trump thinks. It's centered on how to grow our economy, how to help families, how to help the least amongst us in New Jersey, how to stabilize the workforce here, how to stabilize communities and families in New Jersey. If he's opposed to that, he's opposed to our growth, he's opposed to our development, then we're obviously going to push back against that. Our work here is about New Jersey families and about American families who want to move into New Jersey and find out what democracy is really about.

Brian Lehrer: One follow-up on that. I see you were at a rally with National Education union leaders this week protesting things Trump is trying to do to academia. I know they're investigating Rutgers over one of its diversity programs for doctoral students. Of course, we see the pressure on Columbia and Penn, and other private schools. As governor, are there things you could do to protect the freedom of New Jersey's flagship state university that the state or the system isn't doing yet?

Mayor Baraka: Yes. They were already attacking Rutgers, Kean University. At the end of the day, there are a few things we have to-- We have to join with the other states around the country that are using the judicial branch as an opportunity to push back against this illegal effort by Washington DC, and Donald Trump. Two, we have to make sure we grow the surplus in our budget. Be frugal there in order to invest in things that we think he's going to be taking money from, or support teachers and students through legal defense who are being attacked unjustly because of what they believe and what they stand for.

We think this is a fundamental blow against the Constitution of the United States, against democracy and it undermines it completely. We have to stand up against that. I think that the state government should take a very prominent and hands-on role in that.

Brian Lehrer: As we continue to interview candidates in the gubernatorial primaries, right now with Newark Mayor Ras Baraka running, obviously, in the Democratic primary for governor. 212-433-WNYC, as he takes my questions and yours. 212-433-9692. Susan in Toms River, you're on WNYC. Hi, Susan.

Susan: Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: You bet. You got a question?

Susan: Oh, yes, absolutely. Yes. I would like to ask the mayor. I have a transgender daughter, and thank God, we live in New Jersey because she's been able to have access to medical care. I know that there is a bill right now to actually protect trans healthcare in New Jersey, but it needs to be signed into law because, as of now, it's only held in place because of an executive order from Governor Murphy. I'm asking the mayor what he would do to ensure that New Jersey remains a place where trans people can have free access to not only transgender healthcare in terms of hormones or surgeries, but also just regular medical care. Thank you.

Mayor Baraka: I agree completely. I think we need to work to get that law passed. I think it's easy to create these executive orders where we have to build relationships and support progressive and Democratic candidates to make sure we have the coalition that's necessary to get these things into law. I would go further to support this and codifying this into law. As well as making sure we don't out students in schools. 40% of the population of young people that are homeless are LGBTQ youth because they're getting thrown out of their houses. It's important for us to protect young people. The same way we would protect a young person who came and told us that they were being abused in their home is the same kind of protection LGBTQ youth need, and not be forced to be outed.

Brian Lehrer: When you say "not be forced to be outed," do you mean outed to their parents?

Mayor Baraka: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: The Republicans run heavily on the parents' rights and the obligations of the schools to tell parents in those circumstances.

Mayor Baraka: Right. The school's obligation is probably to tell parents if somebody's being harmed, if the child is being harmed, or if harm is being done to them, or they're trying to inflict harm on themselves. At the end of the day, if a student goes to a teacher or an adult there and says, "Something is happening in my home," then the teacher has an obligation not to report to the parents, but to report to somebody else. I think it's important for us to understand that LGBTQ youth find themselves in similar situations where they know if something happens, that there may be violence, there may be a lack of housing, there may be a lack of support in the home if this information comes out. We have to be very sensitive to that because the data is very clear to us that when this happens, many of our young people are, in fact, made homeless, are in fact, attacked, or, in fact, a part of violent episodes. We have to protect young people.

Brian Lehrer: Boom in Lakewood, you're on WNYC with Mayor Baraka running in the Democratic primary for governor. Hello, Boom.

Boom: Good morning, Mayor.

Mayor Baraka: Good Morning.

Boom: I want to thank you for all that you've done for the city of Newark. I live in Lakewood, and I want to thank you for all you've done in Jersey. I have a relative who sits on a lot of different state committees with you. That's why I'm mentioning my nickname, not my first name. My Last name is McNeil. From Lakewood. There's something that you've done with the city in regards to making known about housing. A lot of people did not know in 2003, HUD came out with a first-time homebuyer program for people under HU. The word was not being spread throughout the community. I know you started spreading the word pretty much a little bit after you got in office and found out about the program yourself. I wanted to thank you because I tried to put information out here myself as someone who works in the community and I was hitting a little bit of a backwash, so to speak, having a problem to get that information out there to people until I pulled up a document to show people in Lakewood, "It's a pilot program, started in 2003." People of color were a lot were not told about it. Instead, we had a takeover of what you know about. Thank you for all that you do.

Mayor Baraka: Thank you, I appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Well, let's talk about housing. Obviously a perennially huge issue in New Jersey, as most places. It's one of those policy areas that your campaign does highlight in the context of equity. There's been so much NIMBY resistance, I don't have to tell you, to building more affordable housing. We were talking about it in a previous segment with respect to how Governor Murphy has been trying to approach that NIMBY resistance, especially in many suburban areas. Why do you think that is and do you have any new ideas for either forcing it on communities or achieving more buy-in?

Mayor Baraka: I think that it is that way because of old prejudices that people have in their mind of what they assume public or affordable housing is. Two, these communities haven't built housing in a very long time, 15, 20 years, maybe longer, and you're asking them to build multiple units of housing. They don't know how to do it. They don't know anything about tax credits, they don't know about LIHTC. They don't know how to get these things accomplished. They become in the perils in the hands of developers.

Lastly, I think that the state should really drive this. It should not be given to municipalities and say, "You have to build 300 units. If you don't, you're in violation." I think what the state needs to do is to begin work with municipalities to change the zoning laws, number one. Two, to identify places in the state where there's transit and begin developing around transit. Turn this into a statewide public works project to employ thousands of people, get the trade unions involved, and create a fund for affordable housing to be built.

Why and what the definition of affordable housing looks like, it could be a home on an irregular lot, a starter home for new families. It could be senior housing. It could be an ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that's attached to your home. All these things should qualify as affordability or creating affordability in the state because it does. Work with municipal leaders and community advocates to get these things accomplished collectively.

I think, by the state just saying, "This is what you have to do," throwing the rock and hiding the hand, or giving these unfunded mandates makes it difficult, and people push back. The good news though is the majority of the cities in the state who are under this mandate are moving forward, who are actively participating in trying to build affordable housing. Then we put a lot of time on the other municipalities who are pushing back, but they're not in the majority.

Brian Lehrer: Ali in Newark, you're on WNYC with your mayor as he runs for governor. Hello, Ali.

Ali: Good morning, Honorable Mayor, I voted for you. I'm planning to vote for you as a governor. The question I have for the future governor of state, what are you planning to do with the charter school in Newark, [unintelligible 00:14:10] charter school? How are we going to eliminate charter school that is being run by the political goons in a state of New Jersey? That's my question. They do not produce anything. They run advertisement. It's a way of kickback to all these bosses. What is your plan? You try to do that on your first term, you [unintelligible 00:14:30] weren't successful as a governor, which I hope you win. What would you do? Thank you. I will get off the radio so you can respond to the charter school issue in New Jersey.

Mayor Baraka: My take on charter schools as a 23-year public school teacher, substitute vice principal, principal in the middle of that, and where I am as the mayor now has moved a little bit. At the end of the day, there are some charters in Newark that are doing a great job, and that's just clear. It's factual. They are graduating students, they are producing gains. I think the way the schools are funded has to be looked at the state to make sure when kids go back to public school that the money follows them back to public schools. We also make sure that charters are taking kids with special needs and are taking kids that are English language learners. The more difficult to teach students as well across the state of New Jersey. We make all schools, whether they're public or charter, community schools. I think that that needs to happen as well.

We also have a process that weeds out schools because there are charter schools in Newark that are horrible, that are bad, that are doing a terrible job, in fact. Those schools, their charters need to be revoked. The state cannot be shy in that. Those charters need to be revoked, and that money needs to be turned back over to the public school system. That is strained for money at this point. We need to figure out the school funding formula for public schools and the school funding formula for charter schools and make sure it's equitable and that we're not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Brian Lehrer: Not centered on your website, are public safety or immigration. Two issues I think that seemed to benefit Trump and other Republicans last year. I'm going to take a caller on the immigration issue, and then I'm going to ask you a public safety question. Patrick in Clifton, you're on WNYC. Hello, Patrick.

Patrick: Good morning. I enjoy your show, Brian. I listen to it all the time.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Patrick: I was at my accountant's office yesterday and he was telling me about one of his clients who is undocumented, started a trucking business, has about 12 employees, a wife, and 3 children. He was stopped by the state police because the truck he was driving had-- I don't know anything about weight, but there was too much weight on. The guy is being deported. Why can't we stop that in the state? Why do the state police have such power on that, where they can just send somebody back to Costa Rica for something minor? He's not a gang member, he's not a drug dealer. He's just a hard-working guy.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Patrick.

Mayor Baraka: The state police, in fact, do not have that authority. There's an attorney general guideline that's been put out that's trying to be codified into law called the Immigrant Trust Act. Right now, the state police, local police cannot ask people about their documentation. They can't ask them about their status. We are not supposed to participate with helping ICE round people up simply because they're undocumented. If they've not committed a felony, a crime as listed by the state constitution, the United States constitution, the state constitution, they cannot involve themselves in that. If a state police officer turned somebody over to the federal authorities to ICE simply because they were undocumented, they're actually going against the Attorney General's guidelines of the state of New Jersey, which needs to be codified into law.

Brian Lehrer: On public safety, do you have any new ideas for an anti-crime agenda or can you argue that your record as mayor of Newark indicates success in that area?

Mayor Baraka: Yes. We have a 61% reduction in homicides in the city of Newark, 43% reduction in shootings. Our crime rate is down from this year to last year. It's trended downward for the past decade here in the city of Newark. In fact, crime hasn't been this low since John F. Kennedy was the president of the United States here in the city of Newark. They can't attack us in that area.

We have expanded public safety or treating crime as a public health issue. We've created the Office of Violence Prevention. We have over 40 partners, community partners in the city that we help fund, including Rutgers College and University of Medicine and Dentistry, all these, and community-based organizations that help us around social work, trauma-informed care, working with the police department and the community to help us reduce violence and crime. We're working hard on domestic violence now, which has been difficult for us, but we're working hard on the domestic violence side right here in the city of Newark. We've been doing pretty good.

Brian Lehrer: In the New York mayoral primary, one of the candidates, Zohran Mamdani, was on the show proposing free bus fares, not just as an affordability strategy, but as a crime-fighting strategy. He said neighborhoods that had this free bus fare experiment in the city saw assaults on bus drivers drop 38%. I'm curious if you see or are proposing any kind of link in that vein. Doesn't have to be the same program, between affordability measures and public safety goals.

Mayor Baraka: I think there are clear indicators. First of all, all of the social determinants of health cause the reduction in life expectancy. One of those things is violence and homicide. That's what we talk about as a public health issue. Whatever you can do to ease people's stress and economically, it'll translate into them being obviously happier, more joyful, less involved in violence. If people have a job, if they have opportunity, if they could go to work, if they have a living wage, all of those things are incredibly important. Giving people housing. It's clear to me.

What we've done in Newark is have guaranteed income pilot, we've had a guaranteed education pilot. We've sent over 60 kids to college for free who were either victims of violence, have violence in their background, or engage with the court system. Over 80% of those kids are still in college and are on course to graduate. Those are kids who may have been involved in violence that we took off the table because we gave them access to education and opportunity.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah in Montclair, you're on WNYC with Ras Baraka running for governor. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: I'm trying to pick it up. Oh, hi.

Brian Lehrer: Hi.

Sarah: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I can.

Sarah: I've always been a fan of Ras Baraka. I attend all the debates between the candidates. I have one question. I want to phrase this as respectfully as I possibly can.

Mayor Baraka: That's fine.

Sarah: Could Mayor Baraka speak on his relationship in the past and his agreement with Louis Farrakhan, particularly in situations where there were horrible, hateful views being espoused? I'm sensitive to this because they were antisemitic views and I'm Jewish, and where he stands now, what his feelings are about Louis Farrakhan. I appreciate his response.

Mayor Baraka: Absolutely. Thank you for the question. People who know me, I'm not antisemitic. I've never been antisemitic. There's nothing in my history as the mayor, as a school teacher, as the principal, as an activist that says that clearly. They took a video of me 20 years ago at a rally to stop gang members from shooting each other, to stop the violence tour.

If you go back, you can find me at the Million Man March. You'll find me at events around self-determination, around economic empowerment, that Farrakhan is at, that the Nation of Islam is at. That's because the Nation of Islam has a long and historic record with the Black community because racism and white supremacy has a long and historic record with the Black community. The issue is a lot of folks don't want the same thing they did with Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright, [unintelligible 00:23:01] at the Reverend.

At the end of the day, these issues, the things that are happening in the Black community for decades brings us together, right? Issues of shooting people down at traffic stops, of denying people opportunity and jobs, of lynching, of all of those other things, converge us in the same areas, in the same community. That will happen.

I would tell you this. Farrakhan is not running for governor. Ras Baraka is. Nobody in the Nation of Islam is running for governor in the state of New Jersey. I am. There are times when our issues and ideas converge, and there are times when they diverge. That's important to understand. Clearly, if people have issues with Farrakhan or Nation Islam, they have able-bodied people that can answer their questions, that can defend what it is that they defend, and represent their ideas. I don't speak for the Nation of Islam. I don't speak for Farrakhan. I speak for Ras Baraka. Ras Baraka is not antisemitic, he's never been. He has always organized people across religion and across nationality. I'm running for governor to do the same thing. Minister Farrakhan is not.

Brian Lehrer: We've got one minute left in the segment. We've talked about many of your plans and views. I think the other major candidates in the primary agree with most, if not all. Why don't you close by arguing that you're better equipped than say, a Steve Philip or a Mikie Sherrill to keep it in North Jersey to get those things done or highlight any actual differences on positions? Because obviously, this is the choice that New Jersey Democrats are going to have to make.

Mayor Baraka: I think there's some nuances, obviously, because in a primary everybody's going to say almost the same thing. You have to look at people's records, what they've done prior to this, what they've stood on. You can't say you support affordable housing and you've never done it in the past. You've never built any, you never passed any laws, and you get money from these kind of huge housing corporate developers.

You cannot say you support LGBTQ community and you've never done it before. These are real serious issues in a very serious time. I think we need an executive now. We've been making mistakes in New Jersey. We believe that people from these kind of investment firms, because they work there, that that makes them governors. That does not. There's nothing in their record that makes them a governor. It might make them a great investment banker, but not a governor. Just because people are legislators does not make them good executives or good leaders. It may equip them in passing laws, but not executing them.

Newark, there's no city like the largest city in the state. Our average income here is about $37,000. In Jersey City, it's almost $100,000. The population and the issues that we have to mitigate and fight are incredibly more advanced, more complex. I would say the record and the work that we have done in Newark speaks for itself. Our ability to fight these issues and mitigate these problems and keep our community moving forward financially, economically, and socially, and fight against Donald Trump at the same time has been second to none.

I think right now is what we need statewide. We need a leader. We need a proven leader with a proven record that stands on Democratic values, that does not run to the middle, does not get his money from big investment banks, big housing developers, military contractors that are responsible to working-class families in this state. That's me, clearly.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Baraka, thanks for coming on in this series. We really appreciate it.

Mayor Baraka: I appreciate you for having me. Take care.

Brian Lehrer: We will continue interviewing the candidates in the primaries for governor of New Jersey and mayor of New York until those primaries in early June in the New Jersey case and late June in New York's case. We thank all the candidates who've been answering my questions and yours.

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