Title: Global News Roundup

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we'll open up the phones for a perennial Brian Lehrer show recurring call-in, but also with a special guest who's going to give us some insight into a number of stories here that I'll explain. The call-in is for immigrants from anywhere. Tell us a news story from your country of origin that you think everybody should know about but isn't getting much press in the United States. Again, it's an invitation for immigrants from anywhere to call in and tell us about a news story from your country of origin that's important, that isn't getting much press in the United States and that you think more people should know about. 212-433-WNYC.

What's important, what's interesting from your country of origin not getting the play it might deserve in the United States? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I don't have to tell you that our listening area is such a home to people from literally all over the world, and this station tries to be responsive to that. We air the BBC NewsHour before this show, as most of you know, but there's still so much news from around the world that never makes it even into that. So call and tell us a few of those stories, one from your country of origin if you've got one that you think is deserving of wider play.

212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. And along with you, we've got someone who kind of does this for a living. It's Ishaan Tharoor, foreign affairs columnist at the Washington Post and author of their Today's WorldView newsletter and column. Ishaan, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Ishaan Tharoor: Great to be back with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: I want to start in South Africa and why the Trump administration's animus is aimed at it. Some people have heard a little bit about this, but probably don't know that much. You wrote about how last Friday, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said that South Africa's envoy to Washington, Ebrahim Rasool, was "no longer welcome in our great country." Why did Ebrahim Rasool, representing South Africa in DC, get kicked out?

Ishaan Tharoor: Well, you know, the immediate reason was a webinar talk that he gave last week from Washington to an institution in South Africa where he was quite critical of the Trump administration, where he described Trump's agenda in the United States as one that was kind of pushing a white supremacist platform, one that was aimed at undermining a kind of political establishment in the West. You know, speaking in terms that if you're a political commentator, would seem, you know, would make sense and wouldn't necessarily be something you haven't heard already.

But as you know, South Africa's top diplomat in Washington was remarkably forthright. And the administration picked up on it. It was circulated on Breitbart by a journalist at Breitbart, this far-right website, actually Joel Pollak, who is rumored to be in the mix of potential candidates for the US's choice to be ambassador to South Africa. And that's another story.

So Breitbart picked it up. The Trump administration saw it and Rubio immediately declared Ebrahim Rasool, who is a pretty storied figure in South African politics, a veteran campaigner against apartheid, and someone who is also ambassador here under Obama. He declared Rasool persona non grata. And it deepened an already kind of growing rift between the United States and South Africa that's been quite conspicuous in recent months.

Brian Lehrer: There's the Trump administration being critical of South Africa because South Africa alleged that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. It was South Africa that brought it to the International Court of Justice. And there's another layer. You write online fear-mongering among white nationalists has made its way into Trump's talking points with the president highlighting the supposed oppression of white farmers.

And we have mentioned on this show but maybe you can take us a little bit deeper into it. As an international reporter, what you think the real situation is in South Africa for white farmers. Trump, while he's trying to end the flow of refugees from all kinds of countries around the world, has said whites from South Africa can come here and get refugee status. So what's the South African story?

Ishaan Tharoor: Right. So as you said, on the online right, especially amongst white nationalist circles in this country, the idea of a white genocide is a very-- it's very potent language that's used constantly when it comes to societies across the West that, you know, immigrants are replacing us and so forth. South Africa, where you have this population where 7% of the population is white, where ethnic Afrikaners, that is the descendants of 17th-century Dutch colonists who comprise a major proportion of the landowning population. Among them, there are those who fear persecution at the hands of a majority black government.

There's a long-standing kind of far-right grievance among them about the nature of South African society post-apartheid. And you have people like Elon Musk sitting here in the United States who of course is born in South Africa, platforming those who talk about white genocide and the assault on whites in South Africa. Now there is no substantive data that suggests the whites are more vulnerable than anybody else when it comes to crime in South Africa. You have a situation now where whites own probably half of all the land in South Africa.

And while there are sort of political discussions about land redistribution or expropriation, those have not moved in the same way that say, we saw in Zimbabwe, which is nearby, where you did see a major kind of push to redistribute land to other farmers. You haven't seen that in South Africa yet. You probably won't see it, but it's one of the talking points of this administration and what's interesting about South Africa is that it has, the post-apartheid South African government has one of the most kind of modern progressive constitutions in the world. It is this rainbow society. It's a country that's in many ways is a DEI country.

And for a regime, forgive me, for a government administration, this country that is so opposed to DEI, that has so many kind of far-right ideologues in its ranks who resent the kind of progressive multiculturalism that South Africa embodies. It's a pretty easy target to latch onto. And this is also a year where South Africa is chairing the Group of 20 nations block. And you've already seen Marco Rubio boycott the foreign ministers' meeting in Johannesburg last month. You may not see significant American participation in this format this year, which would be interesting because the Biden administration tried really hard to make America a player in this block.

Brian Lehrer: This is the G20 group of big nations who discuss a lot of mutual economic as well as political interests, right?

Ishaan Tharoor: Exactly. And it is a format now, given the fractures in global politics where you have major players. It's one of the few formats where they really sit around the table. You're talking about Russia and the United States, Europe, China, India, Brazil and so on. And so that's kind of lurking in the background in the conversation. Of course, there is, as you said, South Africa taking a very prominent and forceful role in pushing back against Israel's prosecution of its war in Gaza, taking Israel to the International Court of Justice, accusing Israel of genocide, bringing the kind of moral weight of its own experience of fighting apartheid to its criticisms of Israel and its treatment of Palestinians. And that of course really rankles a segment of the Washington political establishment as well.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go on to a story from another country from a caller and it's going to be another country in Africa, I believe. Jude in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jude.

Jude: Yeah, thank you, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. Yeah, I'm calling with respect to the United States Congressman who revealed that CIA has been-- that's Congressman Scott Perry who talked about CIA funding terrorist activity across the world, including my country, Nigeria, specifically Boko Haram. We've always been hearing that sometimes they drop food for those terrorists in the forest from the helicopter and those helicopter are not Nigerian owned. So that is not to say they don't have ally within Nigeria too who support them. But I think the press has been silent on it because Congressman Scott Perry was saying that as one of the reasons to justify closing down USAID as one of those things that USAID is being used for.

Brian Lehrer: Are you saying, Jude, that you're in favor of abolishing USAID because it's helping the CIA drop food and in other ways support rebels against the Nigerian government?

Jude: Not that I'm in favor of it because USAID has done a lot of good as well. But the media should talk about also the dark side of it too as well. They've done a lot of good that I know of, you understand, helping with medical aid, helping people with malaria medications and all those things. So no, I wouldn't say they should abolish it because I'm aware of the good they've done. But the media is not talking about the dark side of it, because [inaudible 00:10:52] the people. That's one of the reasons why people troop into America when their home is not safe. You could just be home and somebody could just come, gunmen take you away and they're asking for ransom.

It's a very common thing and it happens all over. Back in the days it was some areas, but now there are a lot of militants and the government always say that when they arrest these guy. they find a lot of money on them. The kind of ammunitions they have is so sophisticated that you know that [inaudible 00:11:23]

Brian Lehrer: You think it's coming from the CIA. Jude, thank you very much. Is this something you know anything about, Ishaan?

Ishaan Tharoor: Well, I heard about Congressman Rep. Scott Perry's allegation that USAID have funded Boko Haram. That is something that has been debunked by various sources, including the US Embassy in Nigeria. There's a lot of conspiracy theories and misinformation about what USAID does, the fundings that it actually has and doesn't have. I think there's a suggestion that the USAID has a bigger budget than the CIA. And that's a kind of conspiracy theory that I've seen going around especially on Nigerian social media. And that's not true, of course.

So, yes, I think it reflects to a certain extent the degree to which there's a lot of just unfortunately, false-- There's a whole degree of falsehoods surrounding our discussion about USAID. And I think people don't really understand what it is. They don't really understand what it achieved. I think this is a broader challenge for those in the United States who care about international development and care about the U.S. being invested in international development, because it is a complicated thing to explain why we're spending these funds or the funds we have in the ways we have and in these places in the world. And neither the American public nor publics elsewhere necessarily always understand or want the US to be engaged in the way that it is.

Brian Lehrer: As we continue with your calls, if you are an immigrant from anywhere with news stories from your countries of origin that aren't getting much play in the United States but that you think would be interesting for people to hear about or important for people to hear about at 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Call or text along with Ishaan Tharoor, foreign affairs correspondent or columnist, I should say, at the Washington Post and author of their Today's WorldView newsletter. And let's go right to another caller, Gerard, originally from Barbados in Jersey City. Hi, Gerard.

Gerard: Hi. A very interesting story is that CARICOM countries are now being forced by the United States to stop importing into their countries Cuban doctors and nurses. And the United States government or whoever is now saying that if they don't do that, they will then revoke the visas for the leading person of the government, the prime minister in my country, Mottley. She says if she doesn't stop allowing Cuban doctors in, the United States government is going to revoke her visa.

Brian Lehrer: Gerard, thank you for shouting that out. Accurate as far as you know. Ishaan, is this a story that you're familiar with? I think Cuba has been known for, in fact, educating and then exporting as it tries to export its particular leftist politics to other countries in the Caribbean, exporting doctors. But is this threat from the United States to Barbados and other Caribbean countries to stop taking them a real thing? Are you familiar with this?

Ishaan Tharoor: Yes. I mean, it's accurate. It's a fascinating story. I think it's going to become a bigger story in the days to come if the administration doesn't relent. We've seen also in a number of reports that on the kind of proposed mooted travel ban that the Trump administration is thinking it's going to place a number of these Caribbean countries on the travel ban, presumably as part of a kind of broader pressure tactic on this, the Barbadian leader, Mottley, as the caller said, she is a pretty interesting figure to listen to on her own, no matter the smallness of these countries. She has a very strong kind of moral stance in the global politics, talks about climate change, talks about sort of the historical injustices experienced by the Caribbean. she's a really important global figure in terms of kind of standing athwart the discourse in the West.

And yes, what we're also seeing from this administration is a real desire to kind of revive a kind of late 19th century, early 20th century American posture in its hemisphere. It really does seem to be an administration that wants to bully neighbors, assert American dominance in the region in ways that it hasn't in the past, or these previous administrations have decided not to in the past. They are, of course, ideologically very opposed to Cuba and they are pulling-- they see this as a lever to pull, even though it compromises the health systems of these Caribbean countries.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another example from your reporting. I see that in this morning's newsletter you wrote about the mass demonstrations that took place across Turkey after authorities arrested and detained the mayor of Istanbul and the leading challenger to Turkish President Erdogan. You write the move seemed to cement the country's transition toward autocracy. How?

Ishaan Tharoor: Right. Well, you know, Turkey has been ruled by President and occasionally Prime Minister Erdogan for the last basically more than two decades in the form [inaudible 00:17:31] mayor of Istanbul. You've seen a figure who is profoundly popular across Turkey, has the kind of political game and appeal that would potentially beat Erdogan had he been his party's candidate in the previous election. There's a chance that they would have won and defeated Erdogan then, but he wasn't. And now Erdogan, who has over the years in power gone from being a kind of liberal Democrat to being a very illiberal, nationalist, demagogic leader, his government is pulling the strings that it has.

They have undue influence over the judiciary. They have a lot of control of the media, and they're waging a very systematic campaign of warfare against political opponents. They have arrested him on corruption charges that everyone widely believes are trumped up. They also pressured his university, Istanbul University, to revoke his diploma on grounds of some kind of very confusing irregularities. And if you don't have a university diploma in Turkey, you're not eligible to run for political office.

So they're using a lot of controls that they have over institutions, including universities now, to snuff out the most potent challenger to Erdogan's rule. And you're seeing protests around Turkey. Where it goes from there, we'll see. The opposition is galvanized, but what we're also seeing is a very muted international reaction, whether it's from Europeans or Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Right. And in your newsletter, you write, and this won't surprise a lot of our listeners, you write about, "significant criticism won't be coming from the Trump administration, which has deprioritized advocacy for democracy around the world as it seeks to overhaul US Government at home." Are any other Western democracies responding to what they may see as brazen authoritarianism taking further hold in Turkey, or do they just have too many other problems to worry about, Ukraine, whatever, that they aren't prioritizing this?

Ishaan Tharoor: No. I mean, you've seen some statements of concern, but they don't have the leverage over Turkey that they assume that they may have had in the past. And Turkey itself is profoundly involved in a number of very important geopolitical issues. It's a big player in what's happening in Ukraine. It's a major player in what's happening in Syria's political transition away from the Assad regime. It's a regional actor, and you have to work with them. And they are force of stability in many fronts. So the Europeans have minimal leverage. And this is the status quo in global affairs now. We are entering an age where it's much more about geopolitics than democratic politics.

Brian Lehrer: We could talk forever about Turkey. I mean, for people who've never taken a close look at the map, the way Turkey runs for a very long way, east, west, I mean, that's the bridge from Europe to the Middle East. Turkey is in Europe. Turkey is in the Middle East, right?

Ishaan Tharoor: Absolutely. And Istanbul is a city that was at the center of the world for centuries and in many ways remains so.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one from a listener in a tweet. News from Brazil includes social satire against many Brazilians who were deported recently, I guess from the United States, because many were Trump supporters and evangelicals. You familiar with that as an irony?

Ishaan Tharoor: Well, yes. I mean, there's a whole world of right-wing Brazilians who have decamped to Miami and there's a big population, including-- I think he's back in Brazil now, but former President Jair Bolsonaro spending a lot of time in Miami has a lot of circles of contacts and allies in Florida. And yeah, he's in legal hot water back in Brazil. Could potentially face trial and jail time in the months to come after he was part of an insurrection in Brazil.

I think the different narratives in the US And Brazil over what happened when incumbent presidents challenged the results of an election and how-- the US went down one road where there was seeming impunity for that challenge. And in Brazil, you're seeing the system and the judiciary really crack down on the legacy of their insurrection.

Brian Lehrer: And another one via tweet from a whole other country. Can you mention Peru? Listener says. Congress, taken by corrupt politicians, have colluded with the president to suppress the press and crime is rampant. Familiar with Peru in that respect and suppression of the press?

Ishaan Tharoor: I have not been completely up to speed with the latest developments. But yes, there's a whole arc of countries in the region, Peru in Ecuador as well, where you've seen just incredible political turbulence, political factions that don't really accept each other's legitimacy, constant kind of cases against-- disqualifying candidates left and right, as well as the inroads made by criminal gangs and narco groups as well. So it's a pretty volatile moment there.

Brian Lehrer: One more. We're going to end on a little bit of happier global news, literally. Finland has been ranked as the world's happiest country for the eighth successive year. It came ahead of three other Nordic countries in this year's UN Sponsored World Happiness Report. Experts cite access to nature and a strong welfare system as factors, according to the BBC. As someone who studies global politics, any hot takes on those Nordic countries and why they're so happy?

Ishaan Tharoor: You know, here in D.C. journalists get invited to the Finnish embassy, where it's the one embassy here that has a special sauna and they seem to have figured something out right about lifestyle, a social contract that really takes care of everybody. And a few years ago, I interviewed now, former prime Minister Sanna Marin about the Finnish model. And this is around the time that I think Bernie Sanders was launching his primary challenge in 2020.

And she pointed to what Bernie was saying about the Nordic countries and she said, yeah, you know, I think Finland is where you can have the real American dream now. You can have a society where you can trust that your future is going to be better tomorrow than it was-- your life is gonna be better tomorrow than it was yesterday. And you have a society that where there is a kind of inclusion and sense of solidarity that I think is missing in other Western democracies.

Brian Lehrer: We will leave it there for today with our guest, Ishaan Tharoor from the Washington Post and with you, callers. As I say, we do this from time to time on the show. Call in for immigrants from anywhere on news from your countries of origin that aren't getting much play in the United States, news stories that aren't getting much play in the United States, but you think people would find interesting and that you think are important. So we'll keep doing this from time to time. And we thank Ishaan Tharoor, foreign affairs columnist at the Washington Post and author of their Today's WorldView newsletter. Ishaan, we always appreciate it.

Ishaan Tharoor: Always love joining you, Brian. Thanks.

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