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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now for our climate story of the week, we'll speak with an environmentalist whose political views differ greatly from many others in the climate movement, he says. Joining me now is Benji Backer, founder and CEO of Nature is Nonpartisan, and a visiting fellow at the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity. He also wrote the book, The Conservative Environmentalist: Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future. From that title, you might infer that he's a self proclaimed conservative, but he'd argue that preserving the environment fits into the conservative worldview. Right now, his mission is to make environmental preservation, including caring about the climate, a part of Donald Trump's policy agenda. We'll see if he thinks he might have the President's ear. Benji, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for joining us.

Benji Backer: It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Brian: To begin to introduce yourself to our audience, you identify as a conservative. What does that mean to you? What are some of the conservative values you hold? When did you begin to identify that way?

Benji: I'm 27 years old. I started being active in conservative politics when I was 10, a little bit unusual for a 10-year-old before my voice had changed. I was knocking doors and making phone calls. My family wasn't political at all, but my parents were entrepreneurs.

I felt like the small government, limited government, entrepreneurship, fiscal responsibility, capitalism, those are the sorts of ideals that I grew up seeing successful for my family, which basically did what the American dream is supposed to be about and started a business in that sense. I feel like that's what the conservative movement stood for back then.

I'm not sure that either party is as consistent in their ideologies as they were back then. I do believe that America is the greatest country in the world and that it's something the government should be solving these problems. It's largely individuals and the government should be the last resort, not the first resort when solving most problems.

Brian: Can I ask who you supported in last year's presidential election?

Benji: I did support Donald Trump. I voted for Donald Trump for the first time in 2024 in my life and I stayed neutral the two elections before that.

Brian: You also consider yourself climate-concerned, so how do you square your vote with Trump's drill, baby, drill, mantra?

Benji: I see very differently than the president has seen these issues on over the last few years. I feel like he's missing an opportunity to lead from an America first standpoint, to basically protect the climate and protect America at the same time. You can expand clean energy, you can protect the environment, you can scale the clean economy while also serving the country.

For so long, we've been told that these things are at odds, that protecting the climate, protecting the environment are at odds with conservative values and with America first values. I do not believe that that's true. I think that over the next four years we're going to see a shift in the way that Donald Trump talks about these issues, thinks about these issues.

He has a cabinet around him, this time of people who do believe in climate change. Actually, all three DOI, DOE and EPA cabinet secretaries during their confirmation hearings were talking about how they believe climate change was real, and that they wanted to do something about it. Do I think his record on this is stellar? No. Do I think he has an opportunity to change the course of his message on this in the course of his policies on this? Absolutely. That's what we're trying to set out to solve right now.

Brian: Do you have the Trump administration's ear, you or your group in any particular way?

Benji: We do. We have really good relationships with Doug Burgum, with Lee Zeldin, the DOI and EPA administrators. We also have really good relationships with people within the White House. Over the next few weeks, we'll be meeting with the White House to talk with the team about how they can put together a strategy that would be the size of Teddy Roosevelt's legacy in terms of investing in America's nature.

I'm an avid hiker and an avid skier, and I believe that the shouldn't be a partisan issue. I don't care if it's Donald Trump or Kamala Harris, our organization and the country needs to work with whoever is the president to get something done for the environment. It can't just be an issue that we make progress on every four years and then have to undo the rest of what we just accomplished because a different administration is in charge.

It's not sustainable, it's not effective for the country. The administration is actually listening to us. I think time will tell. I'm not going to celebrate the fact that they're listening to us, but I will celebrate when we get a win. I do believe we will pass one of the largest bipartisan, nonpartisan environmental policies in US history over the next four years. I hope I'm right, but I've got a lot of optimism in that.

Brian: I'll ask you in a minute what form you think that might take vis a vis the climate. I do want to invite listeners in. My guest is Benji Backer in our climate story of the week. He is founder and CEO of Nature is Nonpartisan, and a visiting fellow at the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity. He wrote the book, The Conservative Environmentalist: Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future.

Who has a question? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 call or text. Do you think coming from a pro climate but otherwise conservative bent, that you have different solutions for a sustainable future than we may hear from the left?

Benji: I think slightly. I think first I'd like to say our team has Biden supporters, Kamala Harris supporters and Trump supporters, and we actually agree on a lot of the solutions that we need to have to solve this challenge in this crisis.

I do believe that there's also a lot of overlap, but I do think there's a different approach. The approach that we take is more innovation focused, is more geographically based. Solutions for New York City are not the same on climate change as solutions in Florida where I am right now, or Washington State where I went to college. These different areas of the country are going to have different solutions.

Leaning on local communities instead of a one-size-fits-all government policy is usually the best way to solve these challenges, which is why I'm actually really optimistic about what has been happening around the country. Florida under Republican leadership and North Carolina under Democratic leadership have both passed immensely bipartisan climate policies over the last few years, and they've done it across party lines.

I think we have an opportunity to actually see things from a very similar point of view. I think the real challenge and the real opportunity though is that people come at this for different reasons. If you're a farmer, you care about climate change and the environment for a totally different reason than somebody living in South Florida.

Understanding those people's different whys, why they would care about it, also brings us to different solutions, but can also get us to the same table for different reasons. I do believe that there's actually more overlap than not. We just take more of an innovation first, local first approach that also is good for America, but that also has a lot of overlap with Democrat ideas too.

Brian: Listener texts this question, does your guest see any future for offshore wind? Why are the cables such an issue?

Benji: Offshore wind is difficult because there's a lot of, I think fake news around offshore wind and the damage that it causes, but there's also some real challenges too. It's been overblown what it's been doing to the whales and to the ocean marine life.

I actually toured the only offshore wind facility that's in operation right now off the coast of Rhode Island, the only one in America. There was a lot of marine life circling the turbines, and the people there who were living on the coast didn't mind them there. It provides a lot of power for Rhode Island. I think it powers about half of Rhode island, just the four wind turbines they have.

I still have hope that offshore wind is something that could happen. I think if there's any real problems with the cables, that that's what technology and innovation can solve. There's definitely some improvements that need to be made because right now it is damaging some of the wildlife, and it also is very expensive and we have to figure that out if it's going to have long term viability.

Brian: It's interesting some of the texts that we're getting objecting to us even having you on the show. I'll read just one of them to represent the group. Listener writes, this climate conservative in "is completely disqualified in what he's saying because he supported Trump in the last election." Another one says you're disqualified because you supported Trump as a pro climate person and Trump is a climate denier. What would you say to those listeners?

Benji: First, I think that's the problem right there. Whoever I voted for in the presidential election, by the way, this is the first time I've ever told anybody publicly who I voted for in the 2024 election. You've got away with asking it the right way, I guess. This response is exactly why I don't answer because it shouldn't matter who you voted for.

We share this planet together, we share the environment together. I don't just vote on the climate only. My whole life I'm dedicating to this topic. I'm not the one dictating the outcome of the 2024 presidential election. None of us are. We're just all participating in that outcome. To write me off because of someone that I voted for six months ago, when I've been spending 12 years of my life fighting for the climate and trying to build bipartisan support.

If you want the climate to only be protected under Democrat administrations, the climate will never be protected. Congratulations, you've already lost. There's no way to protect the environment unless it's a bipartisan, nonpartisan issue.

If you don't like Trump, the best thing that you should want is to have somebody like me and all the other conservative allies that we have, as well as Democrat allies who are working to change the community from within and push for common sense, realistic change that would long last any political identity.

I think that it's a real problem that people respond that way, and I think it's indicative of how we got so partisan on this issue in the first place. It shouldn't matter who I voted for. It should matter what we're trying to do. What we're trying to do is make the environment a nonpartisan issue. That means working with whoever is the president, whether that's a Democrat or Republican.

Brian: As a follow up to that, before we take a few phone calls, I saw that in an interview with a dispatch last year, you cited Al Gore, John Kerry, and Bernie Sanders as politicians who, "Realize that they can win over a whole group of voters by being pro-environment."

In that context, what is it that you want the American right to learn from that list of Democrats? Do you believe that being pro-environment is a winning strategy, especially pro-climate, for some Republicans, if they frame it the right way?

Benji: Absolutely. If you're truly pro-environment, if you're prioritizing the environment in the right way, it should win you every election possible. It's one of the most important issues that we face. I know that in this election, it wasn't in most people's top 10 issues, but we keep kicking the can down the road, as that cliche term says.

We have real environmental challenges that aren't being solved. Every American wants clean air and clean water. Every American wants cleaner communities. Every American wants cleaner food and healthier food. They want a sustainable future, and yet our leaders aren't prioritizing it.

The people on the right have to have to step up to the plate and have their own agenda, because if they don't, A, they're going to lose elections, and they deserve to lose elections over it, and B, it will make progress that much harder. The best solutions in American history have come for when both sides worked together to find a common ground, not because they're compromising, but because they're representing both sides of America.

When only one side is represented, you only get solutions that work for one side, and conservatives have to come to the table with their own solutions. That's why, going back to the problem with who I voted for, it shouldn't matter who the President is. You should want environmental action and you should try no matter who wins. If they don't act on these issues, then you should hold them accountable.

On the right, we've been trying to hold those sorts of folks accountable for a very long time. We've seen a huge uptick in support for climate action on the right. Those sorts of leaders have been rewarded, like John Curtis in Utah, who started the Conservative Climate Caucus. He won a Senate race, now he was in the House and now he's the senator and he's the most pro-climate member of Congress on the right, potentially even in the whole country, and he's being rewarded for it. It's definitely possible.

Brian: On what you say about building constituencies on the right for climate action, listener writes, what about the farmers who have had Biden's climate money clawed back? Are you aware of what that is and how that might affect Trump's support in the agriculture community?

Benji: Absolutely. We need to support sustainable farming and sustainable agriculture. We're going to be pushing Brooke Rollins and the President to make sure that we're being--

Brian: Rollins' the Agriculture Secretary, just bringing people along. Go ahead.

Benji: Sorry. Yes. We're trying to make sure that they are investing in sustainable agriculture, this administration, because it's one of the most critical things we can do. It's really good for American farmers and it's really good for our people. It's also really good for the world. I do struggle with the default to just undo everything that the left has proposed.

What I am proposing to the administration is that there's a middle way between doing nothing about this and just reversing everything and buying into everything that the Biden administration has put forward, that there's a third way, which is basically you can actually craft your own agenda to support farmers on sustainable agriculture, to restore the forests in the west, to restore ecosystems around the country.

Those are the sorts of things that maybe they don't like how Biden did it, but they could tweak it instead of undoing the whole thing. That's what we're going to be pushing for because it's really-- I grew up in Wisconsin. The sustainable agriculture and the farming communities in America are the lifeblood of our country, and we have to keep supporting them.

Brian: Nicole in Bushwick, you're on WNYC. Hello, Nicole.

Nicole: Hi. Thanks for having me on. I am a Democrat, but I'm glad you're on. I don't subscribe to the fact that you shouldn't be on because you're not. I do push back on what you said about whether or not it matters who you vote for. I work in corporate and community climate. I live in a neighborhood where flooding is a huge issue. It's getting worse and worse and worse.

It's a privileged position to say who you vote for doesn't matter. The poorest people in the world are going to be affected the most initially by climate, but we will all be affected. Having a president in the White House who doesn't even acknowledge climate change is real, that's a problem. We can't start from there because we are already so far behind. We need to do everything in our power now.

Republicans push back against regulation. Regulation protects water, it protects the air. It ensures some level of health and well being in our climate. We need policies that are aggressive. Biden was at least doing more than anyone else has ever done. To just discount the importance of our votes at every level, we should be voting for people who prioritize climate, not climate deniers. I'm glad you're on, but I really have to push back on what you said about that.

Brian: Benji?

Benji: Nicole, I appreciate that. It wasn't a question, but I will respond to the statement, which is, I didn't say that it doesn't matter who we vote for in general. I'm saying it shouldn't matter who I vote for in terms of trying to make progress. We're trying to move bipartisan environmental policy and climate policy. We have people on our team who voted for Biden in 2020 and Clinton 2016 and Harrison 2024.

We have people who voted for Trump and voted for both people over the years. I don't care who you voted for, I want to make progress on climate and the environment. I can disagree with you about who we voted for in November, but what's done is done. We should be trying to make progress with whoever the president is, whoever the congressional makeup is, whoever our governor is.

Our organization is trying to make sure that there is a environmental group that is relevant no matter who wins an election and can push for good policy, no matter who wins an election. I do not believe that Donald Trump's environmental record is stellar. To say that he hates public lands or hates the ecosystems-- He passed the biggest national park and signed into law the biggest national park investment in US History his first term.

There's a legacy that he can build on that he could take on to the next level. I'm not saying he's going to do that. That's what we're pushing for. Will I hold him accountable and call him out if he does not do that? Absolutely. I'm doing that right now. Publicly I'm telling you that that's something that I would look down upon. However, to say that I basically have written off the ability to talk about these issues because I voted for Donald Trump is speaking to the problem.

I do believe everyone's vote matters, that's just to be clear. It's just the we should be absolutely forward looking on trying to make progress regardless of who wins, and regardless of who we voted for. That's what I meant by saying that it doesn't matter who we voted for when it comes to trying to find solutions.

Brian: Al in Mount Vernon, you're on WNYC. Hi, Al.

Al: Hello. How you guys doing? I'm just calling to say as far as this climate issue affects capitalism negatively, it'll never get done. They'll wait till the planet blows up before they give away or lose so called money on whatever investments they have.

Brian: Al, thank you very much. We have another listener who wants to ask what is the guest's plan for addressing the fossil fuel industry's influence on policies? Building on what Al in Mount Vernon just said, how would you respond to him and that other question?

Benji: Capitalism has created the lives that we have today and the incredible prosperity that overall has been increasing around the world and especially in this country over the last century. I do not believe that capitalism is the problem. Capitalism creates solutions to problems that also have their own problems.

If you created the oil and gas industry to power the lives that we have today, the negative externality of that is that we have carbon emissions in the atmosphere that are hurting our planet. That I believe capitalism can also help solve. Now, capitalism unfettered is not what I'm calling for. The government definitely has a role to play in protecting our environment and our climate. Absolutely.

Instead of relying on government to solve problems, I would rather rely on entrepreneurs and local communities and people who actually know how to build things and do things. That's the future that I see for climate. I do not believe it's capitalism unfettered where we're just blowing up the earth, as you were saying. I think it's working with industry and working with companies to solve these complex problems.

Throughout history, that's how we move forward. It hasn't been the government that's created these technologies, these solutions. It's been the private sector. It's been the private sector working with the government, if the government's been involved. That's the way I look at it, is that capitalism has partially caused this problem, but capitalism will also get us out of this problem. It's not going to be the government alone that solves this thing.

Brian: We're just about out of time. I do want to acknowledge that we're getting a lot of skeptical texts still about your positioning and what you're trying to do. I'll read one more. Good luck with getting this administration to be more interested in climate issues and how to deal with it. It's pretty clear how to do it, and there's not a Republican solution to share. What do you say to that listener?

Benji: I would say watch us succeed, because we are going to build the largest nonpartisan environmental movement in the US history, and we're going to get something done in this administration against all the odds that people think that there are out there. I understand the skepticism, and I appreciate the skepticism because I also share it.

I also know that some of the toughest battles and the toughest opportunities yield the best outcomes, and some of the most unlikely stakeholders and people coming together throughout history are where the best progress was made. I believe that we are going to see something done, this administration, that people don't think is possible.

I believe that Donald Trump will work with Democrats and Republicans to get something very positive done for our environment. If he doesn't, we'll keep pushing. We need both parties at the table. That's the only thing that I would say people can't be skeptical of, is the need for both parties to be at the table. If you truly want climate and the environment to be protected, then you should want us to succeed and you shouldn't just write off half the country in our fight against climate change.

Brian: Benji Backer is founder and CEO of Nature is Nonpartisan, and a visiting fellow at the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity. He's the author of the book, The Conservative Environmentalist: Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future. Thanks a lot for coming on.

Benji: Thanks for having me.

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