Speaker 1: America's democracy is not guaranteed. It is only as strong as our willingness to fight for it.

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Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. Well, president Joe Biden has relented to three weeks of pressure from inside his own party. He has announced that he is no longer running for reelection and endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris for the top of the ticket. There are certainly more questions than answers at this point. This is yet another historic and new space for our national politics. We're going to do our best to understand the ramifications here on day one of the all-new 2024 election. Maybe most importantly, we're going to carve out space for you to react and ask questions.

We want to hear particularly from people who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supporters of President Biden's campaign. This was your candidate. What's your reaction to this news? How are you feeling about Vice President Harris as the party's very likely new standard bearer. Phones are open with priority for people who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supporters of President Biden's reelection campaign to this point.

I am joined by two people who have spent years watching the Democratic Party politics and who have closely watched Kamala Harris as well for that matter. Joan Walsh is the National Affairs Correspondent for the Nation Magazine. Christina Greer is a political scientist at Fordham University, author of two books about Black politics, and host of the podcast, The Blackest Questions from TheGrio. Joan and Christy, welcome back to Notes from America.

Joan Walsh: Always great to be here.

Christina Greer: What's up, Kai.

Kai Wright: Yes. I should say Joan and Christy are also friends. Let's start with both of your top-line reactions to President Biden's decision itself. Joan, did you see this coming?

Joan Walsh: Kai, I did see it coming, but I thought it would be Monday or Tuesday. I think it's been pretty clear the drumbeat of different people saying this was untenable. Even though, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure in this hour there was staunch support from the Congressional Black Caucus as well as the letter signed by 1,400 Black women supporting him. It just seemed like he would have to do it. I assumed he would do it later in the week. He still is suffering from COVID. My heart does go out to him because the whole situation has been very hard. I wish he'd made the decision quickly after the debate.

I guess I wish he'd made the decision last year in a way so we could have had more of a primary. Here we are and I think it's the best possible outcome. It's also so fantastic that he almost immediately, and I loved the beat that he took actually, between announcing and then endorsing Harris. I think it was really effective. I'm very glad that he quickly endorsed the Vice President because that's what has to happen.

Kai Wright: As you said, there are many things for us to discuss. We'll get to them. What about this point about the Congressional Black Caucus, Christy, Joan mentions that one of the things that was clear was that Biden still had enormous and clear support from very important Democratic party pillars, the CBC and mainline Black Democrats in general. Did you think that was going to be enough to keep him in the race?

Christina Greer: No, it's not enough. We know that the Congressional Black Caucus is not the majority of the Democratic leadership and as many political and policy accomplishments as Joe Biden has had the calls were coming from inside of the house, not just from other Democratic electeds, but when the donors start getting a little antsy and we're three months out from an election, I think that raises some serious alarms. It is important that James Clyburn stood by Joe Biden. James Clyburn's also 83. It's important that Maxine Waters stood by Joe Biden. Maxine Waters is also 85. There's a conversation about leadership and passing of the torch that a lot of us in Black politics also have about the CBC.

Kai Wright: It's passed Joe Biden.

Christina Greer: Exactly. What does the future, not just of the Democratic Party look like, but of also the Congressional Black Caucus? When do we try to get some new cards in the deck? Especially when you had someone on the bench like Kamala Harris. Now many Black voters and many Black electeds were saying, let's stay the course. Joe Biden has hits on hits on hits when it comes to policy. He's done a lot, not just for Black Americans, but Americans writ large, especially for Americans and Americans who were first generation. We also understand the capacity of white voters.

That's why I think you see so many Black voters saying, let's stay the course because there have been some questions about will white voters get behind a Black female candidate. Yes. Many white voters voted for Barack Obama. That was then, this is very different. Barack Obama also came with a different political narrative of his Kansas values, read white values with his mother and his grandparents--

Kai Wright: Barack Obama also did not win a majority of the white vote.

Christina Greer: He did not. The data has shown us white people do not vote for the Democratic candidate for the presidential elections. The only time they have done so since we started collecting the data in 1952, they've only done so in 1964, LBJ, my favorite president and 1996, reelection of Bill Clinton. That is the only time that white women have voted for the Democratic Party candidate over the Republican candidate. That is it. Not for Barack Obama. Not for Joe Biden. I think a lot of Black voters and Black electeds understand the capacity of the entire electorate.

We are, by and large, the keepers of the Democratic Party, that's Black men and Black women. To trust white voters even when abortion is on the ballot, even when so many issues that affect daily lives of say, white women are on the ballot I don't think that many of those electeds who are calling for Joe Biden to stay the course, I don't think that they were under any illusion that white voters would miraculously change their voting behavior if Kamala Harris was at the top of the ticket. There are lots of conversations we're having in theory, just 24 hours ago, and now we have to have them in practice and we'll see how that goes for the next few--

Kai Wright: Not even 24 hours. Well, again, there's a lot there that we're going to unpack over the course of the hour but we should say that the Biden for President campaign is as of 4:51 this afternoon, officially registered with the FEC as the Harris for President Campaign. Vice President Harris has issued a statement in which she celebrated Joe Biden's patriotism and said that she intends to "Earn and win this nomination." There are many, many things to talk about in that quote too, Joan, but as a top-line reaction, do you think she'll actually have to compete for the nomination?

There's a long line of endorsements coming in now, but do you think we're headed for an open convention in this regard? Or that this is in fact going to just sew up in terms of support for Harris pretty quickly here?

Joan Walsh: Well, Christy knows I'm always more of an optimist than she is but I'll take a stab at this. I think she's going to wrap it up pretty quickly. I was a little bit dismayed to see former President Obama not endorse her, but I reached out to my closest Obama source who was like, "You're overreacting. Give it a little time." The Clintons came in behind her, and there are a lot of people who hate the Clintons. I love Hillary Clinton, I'm just going to put that out there. They were like, the Clintons want Biden to stay in, and they're doing the bidding of the donors. The Clintons followed behind Joe Biden and endorsed her very quickly.

Nobody has declared two of the strongest candidates, Gretchen Whitmer and Gavin Newsom have said, "No way, we're not going to run against her." I worry about Nancy Pelosi. It bothers me. She was my congresswoman for 25 years. It bothers me that she has not endorsed her. I think there are still shenanigans that could challenge her, but I think it will be hers. I'm very proud of, I guess that's condescending of President Biden for doing the right thing and doing it so quickly.

Kai Wright: Christy, what about you? You think this is going to wrap up quickly? You have written about prior to this happening, the critiques of Kamala Harris both inside and outside the party as not ready for the job. What do you see in the immediate days ahead?

Christina Greer: I'm a political scientist, not a political astrologer. Listen, what I would like to happen is that everyone goes to Chicago and behaves accordingly. Kamala Harris chooses a vice president and they move forward and get ready for November 5th. As my grandmother has always told me, "The only time you should be surprised is when you're surprised." Would I be surprised if some ambitious read white male senator or governor of some Democratic state decides that he wants to challenge, which we don't fully understand the rules right now, but he would be well within his powers to do so.

I would not be surprised if that happens. It would be beneficial to the Big D Democratic Party if they were able to get a vice presidential candidate to go with Kamala Harris so that they can be properly vetted, they can both be introduced to the larger electorate, and they can lay out a policy prescriptive for the next few months because there's a lot of heavy lifting that needs to happen as far as making sure people understand who these candidates are and what a Kamala blank administration would look like.

I would like that to happen. I would absolutely not be surprised if some ambitious individual decides that they're going to make Chicago, where the DNC is being held next month, a contentious and potentially long-fought road to the nomination.

Kai Wright: Joan, in the minute or so we've got before we have to go to break, what about the left? Biden had a lot of support still from the left, surprisingly.

Joan Walsh: Well, and Representative, I don't like to call her AOC because I don't know her, but Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was very loyal. Bernie Sanders has been very loyal, but AOC, because we have so little time, laid out some of the best reasoning for Biden not to step away, and that was, you know what, this whole dump Biden is being run by donors, and they don't want Kamala Harris either. This is very risky, and we could still see a few plays against her. We will see a lot of plays, but I still think that she is unlikely to face a serious challenger. There are always mediocre white men who think they are all that. We're going to find out.

Kai Wright: I'm Kai Wright. I'm talking with Joan Walsh, Nation Magazine's national affairs correspondent, and Fordham University political scientist, Christina Greer, both of whom have been following Democratic Party politics for years and the political career of Kamala Harris specifically. Our phones are open for listeners who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supporters of Joe Biden's candidacy. What's your reaction to the news that he will not accept the nomination for president? We'll take your calls just ahead.

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Kai Wright: You're listening to Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright, and we are reacting to news that President Joe Biden has ended his reelection campaign. He announced his withdrawal from the race in a written statement and subsequently gave his endorsement to his running mate, Vice President Kamala Harris. I'm joined by two Democratic Party watchers, Joan Walsh from The Nation Magazine and Fordham University political scientist, Christina Greer. We are taking calls, particularly from listeners who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supportive of President Biden's candidacy. Let's go to Matt in New Jersey. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt: Hey, Kai. Thanks for taking my call. I have been feeling pretty ambivalent today about all the support coming up. I shouldn't say the support, but what feels like and has already been talked about the coronation potentially of another person. It feels a lot like the same circling of the wagons that we had with President Biden. As a mediocre white man myself, I just like to come out and say that this has nothing to do with the vice president and who she is. I would be so thrilled to vote for her.

I remember the look on my wife's face when we both got to vote for President Clinton eight years ago. I just think there's such a risk of falling back into the trap we find ourselves in now. I don't know. There's such a narrative, at least if you read The Times every day, or they're super politically involved, that she's not quite there. There are issues. I'd really like to see a way for that to be tested proven. Of course, she's effectively what feels like already in the denomination.

Kai Wright: Another coronation.

Matt: We even heard what Dr. Greer was saying right about Black voters, which is a dynamic I hadn't even considered. They're clear-eyedness about all the mediocre white men out there.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Matt. Let's go to Lewis in Pennsylvania. Lewis, welcome to the show.

Lewis: Hey, thanks for having me on, man. The point I want to bring up is that over the last few weeks here, it really seems like there was almost a, I want to say almost a frenzy or panic or mass hysteria where we all watched the debate. Obviously, Joe Biden looked bad. There's no getting around that. He didn't look good at all. Following that up, he didn't look nearly as bad in those interviews and those press conferences. Yes, he had some of those notorious flops that we saw, but everybody seemed to react off of impulse and off their first reaction and then just run it from there.

Then what followed would seem was just a wave of speculation and just hysteria from the media, from the public, from pundits, from this person and that person. It just all seems like these folks think that their personal outrage or their feelings of dread or anxiety, it seems to me at least that their feelings outweigh my vote because I voted for Joe Biden in the primary. I think he's done an amazing job as president, especially given all the situations during with COVID and geopolitics. That really upsets me. Now, if Kamala gets a nomination, I'm going to go for her. For sure, I'm going to vote for her but I'll just--

Kai Wright: You feel like your vote's been overlooked here. Thank you for that, Lewis. Let's go to one more. Let's go to Jennifer in Portland, Oregon. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Jennifer: Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be on. I'm incredibly thrilled. I heard about it this morning. I'm a 49-year-old white woman in Portland, Oregon. I heard earlier saying that white women did not vote for Biden. I challenge each and every white woman out there to think about what they just saw at the RNC and how incredibly male-dominated it was. I'm worried, my daughter here is worried about the rights that are going to be taken away from women and have already been.

Having Kamala being out front, being a firm supporter of women's rights, women's rights to choose, LGBTQ+ rights. I am a gay woman and I'm married and my son is gay. I could not be more thrilled with Kamala being at the top of the ticket in all hopes, Chicago.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Jennifer. Let's react to some of the things that have come up there in those calls. First off, I guess to lump the first two together, just this feeling that one candidate that some people voted for was pushed out. Now another person is going to be coronated just like Joe Biden was in the first place. Is that not more of the same? Let me start with you, Joan, on that idea that we're just choosing the next person here in this party in the same way that they just chose Joe Biden in the first place. Shouldn't the party pause and do something more thorough than that?

Joan Walsh: You know, Kai, I want to say that's a tough question, but it really isn't for me. I really have a hard time with the idea that this is some kind of coronation. If Joe Biden, God forbid, had anything happen to him serious where he had to step aside or worse, Kamala Harris would be our president. We voted for that in 2020. Those of us who voted in the primary voted for that in 2024. She was also a two-term district attorney in San Francisco, the first woman and the first Black woman and the first Indian woman and the first Caribbean woman. She won two terms as attorney general in California, and she became a senator.

There's just this narrative about this being a coronation or an anointing that bothers me. On the other hand, I also get it. I still think that she is by far the most qualified candidate and she has earned it. She today said, "I'm going to earn it and win it." She's willing to earn it. If somebody wants to step up and challenge her, they can. I just want to say, as we're talking, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, often mentioned as a challenger, has endorsed her. The idea that there are a lot of people chomping at the bit to challenge her is probably not true. I apologize. I was only talking about mediocre white men, so I apologize to both of you if you thought I was talking about you because I wasn't.

Kai Wright: Well, thank you for saying that, Joan. Christy, let me put this question to you. Is this an example of the Democratic Party functioning or an example of the Democratic Party in full dysfunction, what we have witnessed? Because I've wrestled with that back and forth. Is this like, "Oh, yes, that's a party that's functioning well?"

Christina Greer: Right. We're still functioning. It's a timeline question. Would I have preferred to have these conversations after the election of 2020? Yes. When I thought Joe Biden would be a bridge candidate. Would I have preferred to have this conversation after the midterms of 2022? Absolutely. Hey, I believe in playing the cards that I have. I agree with Joan fully. What is the role of the vice president? We know every president has selected his vice president to do something different and they bring something special to the ticket and they utilize them in different ways once they're in office.

The purpose of the vice president is to have someone who is ready in case the president cannot fulfill the duties of the job. Joe Biden is saying, I'm stepping aside and I'm not running for reelection. I think that there's no one who's as vetted as Kamala Harris. There's no one who has three and a half plus years of experience. Anyone she chooses as her VP needs to be vetted. Going to Matt's point really quickly, I just want to caution our listeners to remember that the Venn diagram between NPR listeners and the New York Times readers is quite large.

That's also not society, right? Especially not the New York Times. This is the same newspaper who just had a whole layout of the 11 Black men who are voting for Trump. This is not necessarily-- yes, it's the paper of record, but it's not necessarily the paper of the United States. I would caution people to follow their lead fully from the New York Times because it's a little bit of chicken little that's happening with the sky is falling and I don't necessarily subscribe to all the things that the New York Times is putting out there.

As far as Lewis, I agree. There's an impulse that a lot of people feel. It's like we've abandoned the man who gave us really substantive policies these past few years. This is ultimately a choice that was made internally. Joe Biden didn't call you, me, or Joan to run this by us [crosstalk] and so he probably made this decision. I'm sorry, I'm assuming he didn't call you. You know what? That's on me.

[laughter]

Christina Greer: This is a conversation that obviously he had with his family. He's been a public servant for 50-plus years. I know this wasn't a decision that was made lightly. We have to understand the country that we're in, especially when we think about who Kamala Harris will choose as her running mate if she is the nominee, which I think Joan and I are leaning in that direction. Joan probably more so than I. Then lastly with Jennifer, I think Jennifer's spot on.

If Kamala Harris does what every other Democrat who's done in the past two years. Leans into abortion, abortion, abortion, it is a winning issue. Emily's List tells us this consistently. If we talk about a woman's right to choose, not co-opting the language and using the language of the far right, which is pro-life versus pro-choice, that's not the conversation. The conversation is can a woman have autonomy over her own body? It is a conversation between choice and anti-choice. As long as the Democrats and Kamala Harris keep framing it as such, we can actually help people understand the economics behind taking away a woman's right to choose.

Because we know that political science literature shows us that people go to the polls based on economic issues. Making someone have a child is an economic issue. Just lastly, we know to Jennifer's point, that the Republican Party has made it very clear how they feel about LGBTQ+ issues, and they want to bring back conversion therapy in all types of horrors that we had hoped we had moved beyond and we need to be very aware, and this is for people to make sure that their family members understand that they can't go to the polls for a single issue. It has to be a comprehensive understanding of what an administration will bring in.

Kai Wright: Let me, on Jennifer's points about history because I don't want us to breeze by this too fast. Let's listen to this. This is Joe Biden in 2020 announcing Kamala Harris as his pick for vice president

Joe Biden: This morning, all across the nation. Little girls woke up, especially little Black and brown girls who so often feel overlooked and undervalued in their communities. Today, today just maybe they're seeing themselves for the first time in a new way as the stuff of president and vice presidents.

Kai Wright: That's Joe Biden in 2020 as he announces Vice President Kamala Harris as his running mate. The ticket thus far has struggled with a lot of voters but has had a enthusiasm gap, has been documented amongst Black voters, which is crucial to winning anything for the Democratic Party. Do you think, and this is a question directly for you, Christy that bringing Harris on the ticket is going to change that? That it's going to really energize Black voters?

Christina Greer: I think it'll energize a particular segment of the population. Obviously, the Divine Nine, and so that's the historically Black sororities and fraternities. I think that there are a lot of people who are very excited about Kamala Harris, but we also know that the misinformation and disinformation that was out there in the past about Kamala Harris will be in full effect from the Republican party.

The narrative that she was a top cop and all she did was prosecute Black and Latino men especially as Donald Trump tries to court, Black men, he will use some of the old tropes that many of them were absolutely patently false, dare I say lies, and put those on display. I think we have to be very, very vigilant about the narrative that will come out about this "angry Black woman" who is generally laid out her CV. When she was essentially the top prosecutor in the state of California, the misinformation that was out there during her presidential run in 2020 was that all she did was prosecute people of color, which is patent false.

Joan Walsh: [unintelligible 00:25:37].

Kai Wright: Yes, real quick, Joan because I want to get a couple calls before break.

Joan Walsh: I just spent the last six months doing a profile of her. I actually got to watch DL Hughley who is not a politician, but has a certain amount of sway, apologize for believing the Kamala is a cop rhetoric. I think she's gone a long way to changing that narrative among older people and then younger Black people don't even know that narrative. There are so many people coming into voting age that I think it was a problem, but I think she can correct it. It's partially been corrected.

Kai Wright: Let's go to Dorothy in Massachusetts. Dorothy, welcome to the show.

Dorothy: Well, thank you very much. Okay. First of all, let me say, I voted for Obama and Biden when their turn came up. I am a rabid Democrat. I'm also an 82-year-old retired teacher. I really endorse the choice of Kamala Harris. I'm glad he is in favor of her and is supporting her. I would like to present the idea of having Bernie Sanders if he would take it, be asked if he would be the vice president. The thing is that he would bring to the ticket, he would bring in because of his stands on everything and everybody knows where he stands and everybody knows he's not going to waffle back and forth. People know where he stands on social security or on healthcare, or on paying off college loans.

Kai Wright: Bernie Sanders for Vice President. Dorothy, I'm going to stop you there so we can grab another caller. Bernie Sanders for Vice President, there's one vote. John in Atlanta. Welcome to the show.

John: Oh, thanks. My one vote is going to be Harris-Buttigieg. Kamala Harris is the standard bearer for the Democratic Party. When you think about the resume, the most important thing is that she's been doing Vice President for the last three and a half years. She knows the administration, she knows the agenda, and if this was always meant to be a reelection campaign, then it should be reelecting the ticket. The ticket has always been Biden-Harris. That said, I think that the biggest conflict that's going to arise from this, one of your colleagues brought up earlier in the show.

It's going to be some mid-level white guy that's privileged who's going to show up and say, "Oh, you know, I should be president." I think we should all get in line behind Harris. I think to your former caller's point, the idea of a really strong vice presidential candidate right now could really increase the coalition and increase the size of the tent. As much as we've been talking about Black voters, super important, we should also talk about young voters.

Kamala Harris at 59 is going to be much more representative and much more attuned to what younger voters are going to bring to this now. I think it's going to reinvigorate younger voters and get them off of the bench, and I can tell you right now, I've been bummed for the last couple of months. This is the first day that I've really started to feel optimistic again. Kamala if you hear this, I'm going back in for you.

Kai Wright: Thank you, John. Okay, we've got a Harris-Buttigieg and a Harris-Bernie Sanders ticket. I'm Kai Wright. I'm talking with Fordham University political scientist, Christina Greer and Nation Magazine correspondent Joan Walsh, both of whom have been Democratic party followers for many years. Our phones are open for listeners who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supporters of the Biden candidacy. We want to know your reaction to the news, and if you've got any questions about it, we'll take more of your calls and continue our conversation. Just ahead.

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Regina: Hi, it's Regina, a producer with the show. I'm so excited to announce. It's time for our third annual Notes from America summer playlist. It's an election year and we're feeling a lot of emotions to say the least. A lot of us don't feel represented or heard, but we at Notes from America want to hear from you.

No matter where you land politically, tell us about your politics through song. What's a song that tells us something about your political priorities or your political identity? Let me share an example. I went to an event called Arts as Resistance put on by the Museum of the Palestinian People. I asked some attendees what they would add to our playlist.

Speaker 2: Marvin Gaye, What's Going On. There's a cycle in history when people don't learn from past mistakes. Obviously, he was talking about oppression in America and in the world in general. For me, this is what is going on right now and just to be aware.

[MUSIC- Marvin Gaye: What's going on]

Speaker 3: Small Axe by Bob Marley. There's a part of that song where he says, if you're the big tree, we are the small axe, sharp it to cut you down.

[MUSIC- Bob Marley: Small Axe]

Speaker 3: He's talking about things like imperialism and colonialism. We have to be the small axe to really use our voice to push people in power.

[MUSIC- Bob Marley: Small Axe]

Regina: Now, it's your turn. What is the song, artist, or album that represents your political priorities this election year? Leave us a message at 844-745-TALK, that's 844-745-8255, or you can send us a voice memo to notes@wnyc.org. I can't wait to hear from you. Let's get this playlist started.

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Kai Wright: You're listening to Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright, and we are reacting to the news that President Joe Biden has ended his reelection campaign. He has announced that he's withdrawn from the race and subsequently given his endorsement to his running mate, Vice President Kamala Harris. I'm joined by two Democratic Party watchers, Joan Walsh from The Nation magazine and Fordham Political Scientist Christina Greer.

We are taking calls from particularly people who consider themselves Democrats or who have been supportive of President Biden's candidacy. I just want to know your reaction to the news and if you've got questions. For both Christy and Joan, I want to play something that came up on our show a couple of weeks ago. We had New York Times columnist Lydia Polgreen on, and we talked about Kamala Harris back then. Here's something she said about the Vice President's political skills.

Lydia Polgreen: Oddly speaking, I think that it's been a little surprising to me how dismissive people have been of Kamala Harris and her talents. Go back and watch those videos when she was on the Senate Judiciary Committee and her grilling of members of the Trump administration. She just had a real talent for asking really pointed and tough questions and for creating these viral moments that didn't also come off as being showboaty. It speaks to me of a very deft politician and someone who's done some very hard things.

Kai Wright: That's Lydia Polgreen on our show a couple of weeks ago, and this is deeply relevant. The whole conversation here in the Democratic Party is about who's going to win, who can beat Donald Trump. It is the case that there have been mixed reviews of Kamala Harris's political skills over her time on the national stage. Joan, as you said, you've just written a whole profile of her. What do you think about what Lydia said there and just this question of where she stands, again, not on her politics or policy, but just on her skill as a campaigner?

Joan Walsh: Kai, I think Lydia made great points. She did not run the best 2020 campaign. In fact, it wasn't even a 2020 campaign. She dropped out in 2019. I think she had bad staff, bad advisors. My daughter was staff, so she hates when I say that.

Kai Wright: [chuckles] Well, we know you're telling the truth.

Joan Walsh: My daughter was the best staff. Anyway, she's incredible. I've known her since she was running for DA against this entrenched progressive guy. He wasn't that progressive, and he ran a terrible office and she got him out and she won and she won and she won. I think that the 2019 campaign was unfortunate, but it was a blip. Lydia is absolutely right. When you watch those clips of her interrogating Jeff Sessions and turning him into a little puddle of, I don't like to be rushed like that. Brett Kavanaugh--

Kai Wright: Former Attorney General, Beauregard Sessions.

Joan Walsh: Sorry. Former Attorney General Bill Barr, and unfortunately, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh. She's incredible. I also, having followed her around these last six months or more, I'm not allowed to say I've been told by her advisors that she's having a moment or she's grown into the role because it seems condescending, but she's having a moment and she's grown into the role. They can come after me if they want, but she is. She's just doing a kick-butt job on the campaign trail, especially on abortion rights.

Also, she turns it around to reproductive justice, which I think is more of a multiracial thing than abortion rights, because I think for a lot of women, part of it is the right to have a child, the right to have support, the rights to have prenatal care and postnatal care and not die in childbirth. I feel like she's just handling the key issues in the right way.

Kai Wright: Christina, and I get that you are generally supportive of Kamala Harris, but if you have one concern or one prediction about where she's going to be challenged as a candidate, as a campaigner, again, thinking about this, the supremacy within the Democratic Party about who can win, where do you think she's going to struggle, or where would you have a concern about where she might struggle as a campaigner?

Christina Greer: I wrote about this, Kai, in 2021 for the New York Times that I just talked to smack about when I said it's a trap. This is the precarious position that all vice presidents have when you run and you want to take credit for the wins of your administration, but at the same time, you're shackled to some of the ways where you've fallen short. What was on her docket? The border. Well, I'm sorry, we haven't figured out the border crisis in the past few decades, and Kamala Harris wasn't able to solve it in the last few years.

That's something that was on her docket that obviously Republicans will say, she's the reason why people are flooding into the country and immigration reform. She also had COVID on her on her docket. She's the reason why there's a spike in COVID. No matter what policy issue was on that original docket that she's been working on for the past three-plus years that Joe Biden entrusted her with, because so many of these important issues have not been resolved, we know that Republicans speak in talking points and oftentimes lies. It doesn't matter if they're telling a partial truth.

She'll be shackled to all the ways that this current administration, if they have not solved some of the woes of this nation, she'll be shackled to that. Can I just also just really quickly address the previous callers? Because I want to make sure we don't ignore Dorothy, who's 82, retired teacher, so a thank you for your service. I think it is interesting Bernie Sanders is also 82. If we're trying to go to John's point and energizing young people and invigorating people, and I know young people love Bernie Sanders, but can we think about a ticket that does not have an octogenarian on it?

Can we be creative? Do I think Pete Buttigieg does an amazing job eviscerating Republican talking points? Absolutely. I don't know if the capacity of this country, just to be totally honest, is ready for that much progress on a ticket at once. I think a lot of [crosstalk]

Kai Wright: He's an openly gay man [crosstalk]. She is a Black and Indian woman.

Christina Greer: He's an openly gay man. He has a husband and two children, and she is a Black and Indian woman, child of two immigrants with a Jewish husband. I think that, A, does that represent America and I'm all in? Yes, I'm for it, but being realistic about, I know that I'm not the average voter. I know that there are a lot of people who like to say that they like progressive politics practices and descriptive representation in theory, but when it comes to closing that curtain in the voting booth, I don't know if that's the winning ticket. Obviously, there's lots of memes about interesting whites [chuckles] that Kamala Harris will have to choose from at the wine shop, but that goes for her VP candidates as well.

It is one of those things, though, to John's point, does this new ticket, if Kamala is at the top of it, do they just go bold or go home? It's like the stakes are high. Let's invigorate all types of people and do something we've never done before as a party and just put the people that we think have the best ideas and the boldest ideas and act like Democrats, or do we play it safe the way Democrats have in the past, relatively speaking and go for an incrementalist? We've already had a lot of hullabaloo this summer, so let's not let the pendulum swing too far. I don't know what strategies they're thinking of.

Kai Wright: Well, let's hear from some of these said people. Let's go to Christine in Chicago. Christine, welcome to the show.

Christine: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Yes, I think as someone who is Gen Z, what we have been looking for was a sign that the Democratic Party is listening to us and not just using us as a punching bag when we didn't come up to the voting booth to decide yet another life or death election. I know that personally as a Chicagoan, there's been a ton of anxiety around us hosting the DNC and what's going to happen there.

I feel as a Gen Z voter who is in Chicago, this is a real sign that they're listening. I know that so many of my friends and my organizing circles, all we want from the party at large is a sign that we're being heard and not just being used as like a big giant red emergency button. Push this vote only because it's going to be the election that changes your lives and all your rights are going to be taken away.

That's constantly the message we're being pushed at for the last, I've been voting for eight years now, I guess, and it's everything I've heard every single time and we just want to see change. We just want to see action. We want the talking points of abortion and refugee rights and LGBTQ+ rights. We want movement on those. Seeing that Kamala will step up and become the presidential nominee, most likely, we would want to see a VP that has a track record of creating policies.

Kai Wright: Such as who? Who would you--

Christine: It would be fantastic to have Buttigieg. Buttigieg would be great. Again, to Dorothy's point, I think Bernie Sanders would possibly help. Again, you're running into the octogenarian issue. We want a younger generation to step up. We want a Gen X to step up. We want the millennials to step up and take the helm away and lead us into the future and show the future of the Democratic Party. I say it's go big or go home at this point.

If this really is the election to save democracy, hit it on all fronts because Lord knows the poll show that the Gen Z vote and the Gen Z opinion on the current DNC policies and direction is very, very, highly disapproval and very lagging in terms of projected voter turnouts. I say take a swing at it. It worked well in other elections you see on a smaller scale. Look at Chicago with Fringe Johnson and his progressive campaign. You got a huge turnout from the 18 to 25-year-old generation in this last election, and he ran on a completely progressive campaign. It worked well in that city. Obviously, Chicago is in the chasm of the states but I think it's important to acknowledge that and rather just use it as a talking point.

Kai Wright: I'm going to stop you there, Christine, and thank you so much for that, so go big or go home is one vote. Let's go to Adilah in Raleigh, North Carolina. Adilah, welcome to the show.

Adilah: Hi, this is Adilah Shabazz, Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm a Black woman. I'm also Muslim, 75 years old. I have always voted Democratic, so I'm proud of the fact that Kamala could possibly be president of the United States because she's Black. I do have some problems with her other issues. The main concern I have as a Muslim, however, is what will be her policy on Israel and Palestine. Is she going to continue Joe Biden's policy on giving arms, weapons, ammunitions to Israel to create a genocide and occupy power sign? That's my concern.

Kai Wright: Okay, thank you, Adilah. Let's start with Adilah's question and statement. Both Joan and Christy, how do you think Kamala Harris's candidacy will change or will or won't change the way people who are concerned about what is happening in Gaza are thinking about the democratic ticket? Joan, let's start with you.

Joan Walsh: Since I spend time with her and watched her and also talked to her about this, she insists there's no daylight between her and Joe Biden, so that is going to worry people who want our policy to change as I certainly do. I think she has to say that and the fact is, some people say rhetoric doesn't matter but Dr. Greer will probably agree with me that to some extent rhetoric does matter. She has expressed so much more compassion and concern about the carnage in Gaza than, I'm sorry, President Biden ever has, and with real feeling. When I talked to her, she said I'm just going from my-- I'm asking questions.

One of the funny things she said was I'm a cook and when they keep telling me, "Oh, we're sending flour in." I'm like, well, she literally cursed and I'm not going to curse on your air. She's like, "Well, flour is no good. I'm a cook without clean water. What are you doing? What's going on with clean water?" She really expresses a compassion that a lot of people I talk to thinks heralds some policy change if she gets elected. I'm almost afraid to say too much about it partly because I don't know for sure but also because I really don't want the forces of bad to come in and try to make this the single issue which, as we know, has happened in a lot of congressional races unfortunately.

Kai Wright: Right. Christina, what do you think?

Christina Greer: Yes, I think that's going to be a hard needle to thread. On the one hand, yes, I think rhetoric will matter for some because they want to hear some compassion coming out of this administration, whatever new Democratic Administration, but then to be really honest, and to Christine's point and Joan's point about young voters, this is a galvanizing issue for a lot of young people. The privilege of being a professor and being around a lot of students over the years, and this is something I've never seen an international affairs issue affect students so personally in this way.

They are in some ways single issue voters trying to get them to understand the myriad of ways that we choose presidents and presidential administrations. Thinking about what is the Republican Party said, what do you think they're going to do? Who do you think they will enrich in doing it? This is not something that I don't think Kamala Harris will have the luxury of sidestepping or just saying, "Well, the Biden administration and I, we figured that out." I don't think they have and I think that this is a pretty divisive wedge issue within the Democratic electorate.

Then lastly to Christine's point, young voters are feeling used and abused, and it's like, welcome to being a Black voter because that is definitely the way many Black voters feel but the larger narrative of trying to, on the one hand, keep your eye on the prize and on the other hand, push for change, incremental as it may be because the alternative especially for this election and I don't think people are being histrionic and saying so, it literally is the possibility of it being one of our last free and fair elections with essentially a criminal element that really wants to take over our entire politic on the local state, national, and judicial levels.

Kai Wright: Joan, closing thoughts go to you as we start to wrap up here, we had at least one caller say that he's more energized than he's ever been. How are you feeling now here at what is about to be whatever happens the end of the Biden presidency and his era?

Joan Walsh: I think he's been a surprisingly to me progressive president, and I'm very grateful for his service and I'm very grateful for him deciding to step aside and pretty much immediately endorse Kamala Harris. I think that the nightmare in Gaza is going to be a lot on his record and it's a tough thing for her. She can do all the rhetoric she wants as vice president but she's about to become the nominee, I think, and she's going to have actual policies, so the rubber hits the road on that.

Kai Wright: Yes. Well, Joan Walsh is the National Affairs correspondent for the Nation Magazine. Christina Greer is a political scientist at Fordham University. Thank you so much to both of you for taking time to react to this news. Notes from America is a production of WNYC studios. Follow us wherever you get podcasts and on Instagram @noteswithkai. Our theme music and sound design is by Jared Paul. Matthew Marando was at the boards for our live show.

Our team also includes Katerina Barton, Regina de Heer, Karen Frillman, Suzanne Gaber, Mike Kutchman, Siona Peterous, Lindsay Foster Thomas, and Varshita Korrapati. Again, check us out on Instagram at Notes with Kai. That's where we put a lot of our questions for our upcoming shows. It's where we start to ideate, figure out what we're going to be talking about and it's your chance to chime in and shape what we're doing. That's @noteswithkai on Instagram and I'm Kai Wright. Thanks for spending time with us tonight.

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