[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Hey, thanks for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on-demand, I'm really happy you are along for the ride today. We have been reading our book. It's time to discuss our March Get Lit pick. I have some questions for you by Pulitzer Prize finalist, Rebecca Makkai. Just want to remind you, that is happening tonight at 6:00 PM at the SNFL New York Public Library Space. Now, here's the deal. Tickets are sold out, which is fantastic, but you can join the standby line.

There's always a couple of seats that open up, and of course, everyone is welcome to watch the live stream. For more info, go to wnyc.org/getlit. Can't wait to see you all tonight. That's a few hours away. On today's show, we're going to hear from some of the winners of our public song project and some of the honorable mentions. We'll also learn what it means when a work enters a public domain and how that has changed over time. That is our plan. Let's get this show started with a little bit of fun. Our series celebrating a big anniversary. This year marks the 25th anniversary of NSYNC's debut album.

[Tearin’ Up My Heart by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: [sings] Yes, I know. I'm singing. I know the mics are on. We're going to keep this a little more.

[Tearin’ Up My Heart by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: Oh, there are shenanigans happening in the studio. On March 24th, 1998, a new boy band going by the name NSYNC, emerged with the US release of their debut self-titled album. The group name allegedly came from Justin Timberlake's mom and combined the last initials of the members first names, N for Justin, the cute young one who would go on to have a huge solo career, S for Chris Kirkpatrick, the founder and oldest member, Y for Joey Fatone, the funny one, N for either Lance, a nickname for Lance Bass, or for Jason Galasso, who Bass replaced before the first album, and C for JC Chasez.

NSYNC's debut album was a hit peaking at number two on the Billboard 200. It was followed that same year by Home for Christmas, one of the best-selling Christmas albums in the US of all time. It also set them up for the mega success of their next album, 2000s in No Strings Attached, which sold more units in one week than any album ever until Adele 15 years later. Joining me now to talk about the legacy of NSYNC's debut for our Silver Liner note series is journalist Maria Sherman, who is also the author of the book, Larger Than Life, A History of Boy Bands from NKOTB to BTS. Maria, welcome to the studio.

Maria Sherman: Thank you for having me, and thank you for nailing those acronyms. Everybody stumbles over them.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Do you remember when NSYNC released this debut album? Do you have a favorite track? Did you ever go to one of their concerts? Maybe you met one of the band members. Tell us about your connection to NSYNC for our Silver Liner note series 212-433WNYC, 212-433-9692, or you can hit us up on social media @allofitwnyc. Maria, I want to let you lay the groundwork, paint a picture of the landscape at the time.

NSYNC releases this first single in February 1998. The number one song in the US that week was Nice and Slow by Usher. The next week it was replaced by Celine Dion's My Heart Will Go On, the year before the Backstreet Boys had hit. Why is it important and what should we know about the landscape for when NSYNC landed?

Maria Sherman: I think the most important part before we get into all of the specifics is that NSYNC and Backstreet Boys shared a manager. The fact that NSYNC hits right after Backstreet Boys means that they have the luxury of learning from what Backstreet Boys did and improving upon it. They were created by the same manager, Lou Pearlman. They followed the same trajectory by starting in Sweden and in Germany working with Max Martin and Denniz Pop and all these incredible pop songwriters that Backstreet Boys had worked with breaking in Germany, getting their feet wet there, strengthening their choreography their ability to interact with fans and then coming to the US after the fact.

They were discovered in Orlando the same way the Backstreet Boys were. All of them were working in some degree of separation from Disney or at the theme parks like Universal Studios. They were all there because they wanted to be in a boy band of some capacity. For NSYNC, specifically, it's Chris Kirkpatrick, the oldest member who goes up to Lou and says, "Hey, you've had success with Backstreet Boys. I would like to do something similarly," and he gets in touch with JC Chasez and Justin Timberlake from The Mickey Mouse Club.

They partner with Joey Fatone, as you said, and the peak best of NSYNC, Jason Galasso, who leaves and is replaced by Lance Bass, who shared a vocal coach with Justin Timberlake. They have a path laid out for them, which is unique in the boy band story where there's this model that they can mimic and then improve upon, as I said, by strengthening their choreography occupying a space that Backstreet Boys didn't, which is abandoning ballads to do more uptempo songs like Tearin' Up My Heart.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask because we had Backstreet Boys and before that New Kids On The Block, there was also New Edition way back [unintelligible 00:06:28] way back. Boy band's not new, but what was it about NSYNC that was new and fresh?

Maria Sherman: A lot of it was the fact that they played on the uptempo pop songwriting, but also pulled from a deep understanding of R&B. They always say that their love is Boyz II Men and they wanted to be Boyz II Men, and then they get to Sweden and they have to interact with Eurodance and pop music, which is new for them. I hope we can hear some of that a little bit later. There's all of that happening at the same time. There's the immediate familiarity of Justin and JC, so the public facing image where people were already knowledgeable about these people as opposed to Backstreet Boys who came from nowhere.

Alison Stewart: Meaning because they were part of that whole crew that was-

Maria Sherman: The Mickey Mouse Club.

Alison Stewart: -that was Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, Ryan Gosling, some classic dance moves from him. He went in a different direction. You're saying that Justin and JC came in with a little bit of a fan base?

Maria Sherman: Absolutely. I think we have to shout out Justin Timberlake's mom a little bit because when NSYNC does make their live debut in 1995, a couple of years before we get this album, she just decided to start a fan club. Moms of boy band members have a long history of running fan clubs from George Harrison's mom in The Beatles. It really works. They were really knowledgeable on how to make this machine work and blow it up to enormous size.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about the 25th anniversary. It's hard to say that, the 25th anniversary of NSYNC's debut album. We want to get you in on this conversation. Do you remember when NSYNC released their debut? Maybe you have a favorite track from that album or any of their albums? Have you ever seen them in concert? Maybe you've met one of the band members. 212-433-9692, 212-433WNYC. Tell us about your connection to NSYNC. You can also hit us up on social media @allofitwnyc.

I want to go back and dig into the person you mentioned Lou Perlman, who is both infamous and famous. In the beginning, before he became infamous, who was Lou Pearlman? What did he want to do with his career? What did he want to do as a producer?

Maria Sherman: Lou Pearlman is originally from Queens. He's a New York City guy. He always wanted to be big in business. He wanted to be a money maker, essentially. His first career endeavor was to rent out old blimps because blimp advertising was a thing that we must remember in the late '80s and early '90s, and also private jets. There's a lot of fraudulent behaviors in this. There are many, many good books and many, many documentaries about the guy. He's a CD player in the pop music history books but at some point, he gets real planes and he rents one out to New Kids On The Block.

While he's on this plane, he meets Johnny Wright, New Kids On The Block's manager, who ends up becoming a tour manager for NSYNC and Backstreet Boys later in life, and is one of pop music's most influential managers and learns that New Kids On The Block make something like 800 million in merchandise. He sees ka-ching, ka-ching, dollar signs, "I'm going to start a boy band."

He takes all of his capital, he buys a 6,000-square-foot warehouse in Kissimmee, Florida, outside of Orlando. That's the place where Backstreet Boys will become their band and practice. That's also where NSYNC will get their start. He is trying to follow a little bit of the mechanized system of a Motown with all of the capital and merchandising of New Kids On The Block to create what many of us see as the golden age of boy bands with NSYNC and, and the Backstreet Boys.

He has this incredible idea to take these boys and send them to Europe as we mentioned earlier. The reason for that is at this point in time, in 1994 to 1996 or so, the US isn't that big on boybands. New Kids On The Block has gone on hiatus and broken up. Jordan Knight left in 1994. Were exhausted by boybands and that happens a lot in history. They burn bright and fast, and then they fall off. He takes these guys to Europe where they always love boy bands.

There's ever a lull-- especially in Germany where the term boybands originated in the 1980s, people just love this stuff over there. They don't care if these guys lip-sync. They just like the production and theatricality of it. Then when something like NSYNC happens and they sing beautifully, they can sing acapella. They have these gorgeous five-part harmonies. They really master their craft over there and are really embraced with open arms, which allows them to come to the US and take over our lives [laughs] 25 years ago, my God. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to the group's debut single, I Want You Back.

[I Want You Back by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: That was a debut single from NSYNC. My guest is Maria Sherman, author of Larger Than Life: A History of Boy Bands from NKOTB to BTS. We've talked a little bit about how they launched in Europe. How did European music and the European music scene shape the band going forward, if that was their formative stage?

Maria Sherman: Yes, I think a lot of it is the fact that this album is primarily written by Swedish producers and writers, which on some songs comes across in a funny Swedish-to-English translation. They use party far too gratuitously across this album. In this track specifically, it has that Max Martin, Denniz Pop, those Swedish producers I'd mentioned earlier sound where the production recalls Ace of Base and Robin who they were famous for working with at the time. Then eventually everybody wanted that sound, and that's how you get Brittney Spears over there, and Katie Perry, and Taylor Swift. Some of the most successful songwriters of all time come from Stockholm.

What's interesting about this song, in particular, is it's not the one that totally breaks in the US, that's Tearin' Up My Heart, even though now we all are familiar with the song because the record went on to have such incredible success over here. It's a little bit more-- it's a little slower than most NSYNC big singles. That's because it was written to appeal to the Backstreet Boys audience because they were having success. When I hear that song, I'm like, "This should be Backstreet Boys' cup," but it's an NSYNC song that allows them to inch towards their future sound and through experimenting, find that more uptempo.

Alison Stewart: Why don't we play another song Riddle, which didn't appear on the US International release, but it did appear on the 1997 German release. You hipped us to this. Can you set this up and tell us what this reflects about the band's influences and what we should listen for?

Maria Sherman: The production specifically, it sounds like a Eurodance song. When I hear it, it reminds me of going on a rollercoaster in Germany waiting for that process. It is so unlike the US release and it's a beloved now hit from NSYNC fans, but it really-- just listen to it and hear that maybe it feels more like techno even than the rest of the cuts on the album.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to Riddle.

[Riddle by NSYNC playing]

?Maria Sherman: Now is the time we've danced on sprockets.

?Alison Stewart: Now that I'm listening to it, it makes me [unintelligible 00:15:10] rockstar.

[Riddle by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: That is fascinating. The production difference is fascinating. It really is like German techno.

Maria Sherman: It's not something that you would expect a nine-year-old girl in suburban America to really be rocking out to. It was cut from the album and there were a couple other songs that were removed. There's an acapella cover of a Boston song that was later removed from the US version. I think all of it speaks to how much time and fluidity NSYNC had at the beginning of their career where they were allowed to experiment and figure out what would work in Germany, what would work stateside, what would work internationally.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about that cover of Boston's More Than a Feeling. They covered Christopher Cross, they covered Boston. Why were they covering Boston More Than a Feeling? [laughter]

Maria Sherman: That is a great question. My theory and I've asked this before and I haven't gotten a straight answer. That's the other thing about the early days of NSYNC. You talk to a member and they'll all give you a slightly different answer. Chris Kirkpatrick is usually the most vocal about this thing. To my understanding, it's that they wanted songs that they could do well acapella, that were already familiar. Germany has always been a big fan of '70s rock music, so why not if there's a familiarity there and they could rehash it and make it their own? It is a very interesting cover joint. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: This again, was a track on the German release, but not the US version. Here is NSYNC covering Boston, More Than a Feeling.

[More Than a Feeling by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: Bet you did not expect to hear that today dear listeners, WNYC audience, NSYNC covering Boston. The lead vocals on that is JC Chasez, and there's always been this big debate. Justin Timberlake blew up as the unofficial lead of the band, but there's always been this argument that actually JC is the better vocalist. I don't know where you come down on that. I guess my question I will ask you, as a journalist, was there supposed to be a lead singer or did charisma, did girls' reactions, young boys' reactions, whoever's reactions, bring Justin more to the forefront?

Maria Sherman: I will say as a boy band scholar, we're supposed to approach all of these groups as a democracy, which is absolutely never the case. There's always going to be stronger vocalists and stronger vocalists within the context of the group specifically. I think it's important to remember that these are vocal groups. They're not set up exactly like do opera barbershop, but there's definitely a low voice that's Lance Bass's baritone. He could hit a low F at 16 and everybody was very impressed by that.

Then Chris Kirkpatrick on the far end, he was alto soprano but does a lot of the falsetto parts, I shouldn't say most. Then in the middle range, you have Justin, JC, and Joe, but Joey was more-- he would harmonize. He wasn't as strong as JC and Justin. When they began, JC was singing primarily most of the leads. If you look at the original cover of this album, he's situated front and center. He was one of the cuter members, if I'm allowed to say that objectively.

Alison Stewart: He's very traditionally handsome.

Maria Sherman: That's what we're going for. In the boy band space, we love tradition, we love non-threatening, soft-cheeked boys. He was positioned in that space. However, with this album in particular, it's interesting because it was a little bit more of an experiment when they were writing these songs, a lot of the producers would let all of the boys sing every part and then determine who sounded best, and that would be the cut that they would use.

There was some ambition in making it an equal opportunity situation. Then time and time again, JC and Justin would be at the forefront, JC more specifically. I think over time the switch is based on charisma and outward performance that Justin was very, very good at all the extra-musical stuff. The dancing, the hamming it up for the camera, being that front-facing person.

Alison Stewart: The theatrics of it all.

Maria Sherman: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: Which is also interesting because I didn't realize there was a 10-year age difference in this band that Justin started when he was 16, 17 or so, and Chris Kirkpatrick's a decade older.

Maria Sherman: Justin, I think was 14.

Alison Stewart: Wow. When they first, first started?

Maria Sherman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Maria Sherman: Yes. Very early on, but not around this album. Yes, there was a huge, massive age difference and I think that's why Chris took on that sort of like, "Let me get the band together," a little bit of a managerial role because he was able to. He was older and ready to get the next thing going. Massive age difference does not happen in boy bands today, don't think it will happen again.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about the song Here We Go. This was a song you wanted to highlight?

Maria Sherman: Yes. This song, I think, does a couple of things that feel very Swedish and also very boy band. There's this call and response thing that's set up so that the audience will sing back to the, "NSYNC's got it going on," part of it in the chorus rather and that's taken from ABBA, the using this part you respond in this way. Also, the fact that they name-check themselves in the track reminds me of Everybody (Backstreet's Back).

Members of the band specifically on Backstreet have said that they find it very cringey to name-check the band name in the song, but I think it does wonders for marketing. It reminds you who you're listening to especially when you're using the same songwriters and following the same career trajectory of the other big boy band of the time. You got to differentiate yourself in some capacity.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear it. Here we go.

[Here We Go by NSYNC playing]

Alison Stewart: Just in case you didn't know the name of that song is, Here We Go.

Maria Sherman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Here we go now.

Maria Sherman: Here we go.

Alison Stewart: My guess is Maria Sherman. She's the author of Larger Than Life: A History of Boy Bands from NKOTB to BTS. We are talking about the 25th anniversary of NSYNC's debut album. They went on to follow up their debut with No Strings Attached.

The first day it dropped in March of 2000, it sold 1.2 million units and in an article about the legacy of NSYNC's sophomore album, you wrote that after the turn of the millennium, boy bands "would be off the radar" until the boys of One Direction, almost the spiritual opposite of NSYNC stumbled onto the X Factor a decade later. What made One Direction, who again, had someone break through, Harry Styles, very similar, the spiritual opposite, but also a mirror.

Maria Sherman: I'll also add that Harry Styles wasn't the original front vocalist. That was Zayn, but Harry had this charisma of a Justin Timberlake. There are so many parallels throughout the boy band story. The main thing I'm alluding to there is that One Direction didn't dance and NSYNC were some of the best dancers in boy band history. I could say pop music history, but maybe we don't want an angry phone call. There are fundamental differences there.

NSYNC was pulling from RnB and pop as you mentioned, which was the history of boy bands up until One Direction where they were more invested in pop and rock through later albums, or very thinly veiled Fleetwood Mac Worship. They're from the UK and for a long time there was attempts to make a UK boy band happen in the United States, audiences weren't having it. Justin Timberlake comes from television, One Direction comes from television, there's so many minor details that are very, very similar, but then in the actual application very, very different.

Alison Stewart: The band released a final album Celebrity in 2001. That's just a few years after their debut. What contributes to the short lifespan of NSYNC and what contributed to their breakup?

Maria Sherman: The main factor is that this is when the music industry is in decline. No longer are people willing to spend $19 on a CD mostly full of filler with three good singles at Best Buy when they can download it illegally on Napster, Kazaa. The advent of peer-to-peer sharing is really what was the nail on the coffin, but then also at the same time in 2001 on Celebrity, Justin sings most of the leads. JC has taken a bit of a backseat and it's becoming more and more apparent that he wants out.

Then of course the next year you get his debut with Justified. He breaks up with Britney Spears, he's working with Timbaland and The Neptunes. It's very much like, "All right, Justin's out. What do we do now?"

Alison Stewart: In our next segment, we're going to be talking about another 25th-anniversary album, Destiny's Child and you think about it in the same way. Starts as a group, and then there's a person in the band who just takes off into the stratosphere. When you put the trajectories of NSYNC and Destiny's Child side by side, what stands out to you as a music journalist?

Maria Sherman: I think the fact that Beyonce is in a league of her own because with Justin Timberlake we view him as maybe the exemplar of how to leave a boy band and eclipse their success in some ways as a soloist. He did that by finding a very clever way of individuating, which is being this suit and tie, suave man formerly of a boy band, but adultifying himself. With girl groups, historically, at that point, you didn't really see that.

I always think of Geri Halliwell from the Spice Girls, Ginger Spice, when she left and she would do stuff that was more explicitly sexual expressing her autonomy, people really weren't about it. They chastised her, they were not about it, and then Beyonce's able to leave Destiny's Child and have one of the greatest careers in pop music history. She's in a league of her own. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Her trajectory reminds me of when Diana Ross left The Supremes.

Maria Sherman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I think that's probably the closest-

Maria Sherman: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: -comparison.

Maria Sherman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: To help us transition to the next segment, we're going to go out on Until The End Of Time by Justin Timberlake featuring Beyonce. My guest has been Maria Sherman, author of the book Larger Than Life: A History of Boy Bands from NKOTB to BTS. Maria, thanks for coming to the studio.

Maria Sherman: Thank you so much. It's been fun.

[Until The End Of Time by Justin Timberlake feat Beyoncé playing]

 

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