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David Furst:  This is All Of It. I'm David Furst in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, we are grateful that you are here. On today's show, we'll talk about the new book, Gays on Broadway, with author Ethan Mordden. There's a Yiddish sing-along tonight in Central Park. We'll learn all about that from the organizers. Now, that Netflix is cracking down on password sharing, we want to hear from you about how you're handling streaming services. That's the plan. Let's get started with Love + Science.

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David Furst: About 40.1 million people have died of HIV worldwide since the onset of the virus. That's according to the World Health Organization. A new off-Broadway show returns to the start of the epidemic through the lens of two gay medical students. It's called Love + Science. Set in New York City during the 1980s, young Matt introduces himself to a fellow student named Jeff. Their connection is instant, and after running into each other for a second time at their professor's lab, Jeff convinces Matt to go out with him on a study date, a study date where not much studying gets done.

Later, Matt puts their relations to a halt after hearing rumblings of a mysterious new disease affecting gay men. Over the course of the play, the two of them along with their professor, Diane Gold, scrambled to learn more about the virus and its symptoms while treating patients at the hospital in a world that appears apathetic when it comes to the plight of gay men. The show even includes clips of actual news broadcasts from the era between transitions. Let's take a listen.

Reporter 1: Scientists at the National Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta today released the results of a study which shows that the lifestyle of some male homosexuals has triggered an epidemic of a rare form of cancer.

Reporter 2: Researchers know of 413 people who have contracted--

David Furst: Love + Science was written by playwright David J. Glass, and it is running at the New York City Center through Thursday, July 6th. Joining us today is Thursday Farrar.

Thursday Farrar: Hello.

David Furst: Hello, who plays Professor Gold in the show. Thursday, welcome to All Of It.

Thursday Farrar: Thank you so much for having us.

David Furst: Also joining us is Matt Walker, who conveniently plays Matt Mitchell. Matt, welcome to All Of It.

Matt Walker: Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

David Furst: Matt, It's been about 30 years since the HIV/AIDS epidemic began. In your own words, what is Love + Science about?

Matt Walker: You nicely summarized many of the key plot points or the situation of Love + Science. Love + Science is about these two medical students at Columbia working in the '80s trying to navigate their relationship and their budding love for each other in light of this new virus that was very scary on a personal level, and especially so for these scientists who were studying this type of virus at the time. They're both trying to figure out how to navigate their love and trying to understand what is going on scientifically and in New York City at this time.

David Furst: What did playwright David J. Glass tell you that the catalyst was for this play? We're a few years away from the COVID lockdown right now, but that's still so fresh in our minds. There's a real sense in this play that the AIDS epidemic is being forgotten.

Matt Walker: Yes, absolutely. I think that's a big part of where the playwright, David, was coming from with this play. The play is inspired by his time in New York City, working in a virology lab in the '80s, also at Columbia, so it involves a lot of real-- It takes inspiration from real people at the time, and the work that was being done by scientists at this time in studying viruses, and his own experience in the city.

David Furst: Amazing. It talks about a lot of the real people that we know from that era, famous people as well.

Matt Walker: Yes, exactly. I think one of the most exciting parts of this project for me is the fact that it focuses heavily on the work that scientists were doing before HIV to study these types of viruses, before they were known to infect humans at all. Many people in the scientific and medical community, and the broader public really looked down on this research. Scientists were studying viruses that couldn't infect humans. Retroviruses were only known to infect mice, non-human primates, other organisms. Then HIV comes along, and suddenly, this research is incredibly impactful and paves the way for treatments and understanding of this disease.

David Furst: Thursday, in the beginning of this production, that's what you're doing, you're studying mice.

Thursday Farrar: Yes, studying the retroviruses of mice, retroviruses that are affecting chickens. Mice have these similar-- Matt, fill me in on the genetic, and the inspiration of our body system is very similar. That's where Professor Gold is coming from.

David Furst: Both of your characters are either studying in medicine or scientists studying retroviruses in mice. As the play opens, potentially, you start to hear about this new virus that is affecting humans. How do your characters respond in this moment when everyone else is doubting this research?

Thursday Farrar: I think from my perspective, it's trying to be open to what the possibilities are. Is it a virus? Is it something else? This is a virus or is it a fungus, or it's-- HIV was so confusing. I think that Gold wants to be open-minded, and not just focus on just one possibility. The character itself sees the possibilities through Matt's eyes as well. I think it's Matt who is the catalyst of like, "We should be going in this direction." I think she learns from her student.

David Furst: As they learn from you as well.

Thursday Farrar: Yes.

David Furst: Part of this plays out as a detective story, but incredible time compression. It's not like you have months and years to work this out on stage.

Matt Walker: Yes, that's true. The play takes place over many years, focusing on highlights of the research, the scientific journey, and Matt's personal journey over this time period.

David Furst: Matt's personal journey. You are also Matt, and I have to bring these two characters together for a moment. You are also currently pursuing a PhD in genetics at Columbia University. Is that right?

Matt Walker: Yes, that's true. In fact, I'm doing my research in the same building where this place set, where much of this research was happening in the '80s, uptown in the Hammer Building on 168th Street, the Columbia Medical Campus.

David Furst: That's amazing. Does it feel a little crazy on stage with your worlds coming together?

Matt Walker: Absolutely. We were just talking about how last night, in fact, my lab came to see the show, and that was a very meta-theatrical experience having just spent all day in this lab pipetting and doing my experiments, so then jump on stage and pretend to be pipetting and doing experiments with my colleagues all in the audience.

David Furst: You're in a lab on stage and you're there with all of your lab mates.

Matt Walker: Yes, exactly.

David Furst: That's a lot.

Matt Walker: Yes. Yes, it was a very surreal experience for sure.

David Furst: What was it about the script for Love + Science that spoke to you as the themes, but also as actors?

Thursday Farrar: I was going to school during the later part of the AIDS epidemic. I was here in New York in my 20s in 1984, '85 through almost '87, and it just came full circle. Everything that we went through with COVID, it came around full circle for me. Being at that age and young in New York City, I didn't realize the impact. I knew what was happening.

It was a part of the background of being here in New York. I had friends who passed, but now that I'm older, I'm like, "Wow." I didn't get it, and I'm so much more aware of not only the LGBTQ community, but the fact that this virus affected people across the board. It was just fascinating to be a part of something like this when I was in the city at the time.

David Furst: You got going into a time machine every night as you go through this production.

Matt Walker: A huge part of this play for me and what drew me to it was how it presents scientific research. I think a big piece of research that many people don't really appreciate is that basic biology research can have huge implications on human health that are impossible to predict. This is the importance of government-sponsored research is that it allows scientists to investigate topics in areas where you might not know how it could affect human health in advance. This is a beautiful example of these scientists working on these viruses that had no possible implications towards humans, and then overnight, that research became incredibly important for this very deadly, scary, dangerous disease.

David Furst: We talked about how part of the story plays out as a detective story trying to solve this, but the love story, Matt, between Matt and Jeff, is really central to the plot. What do Matt and Jeff see in each other?

Matt Walker: Oh, wow. Matt and Jeff's story is their love story. Even though it lasts the whole play, we only really get to see them, and I don't want it spoiled too much, but we only get to see them really falling in love at the beginning of the play, because once this virus appears, they have very different responses to it. Whereas Jeff, my love interest in the play, Jeff is interested in continuing a relationship with Matt, and is interested in not letting this totally destroy their relationship. My character, Matt completely shuts off any potential of romantic partnership once the virus appears.

David Furst: How do the two of them challenge one another to look at life differently?

Matt Walker: Since they have these very different perspectives on the virus and how it should affect their relationship, that is central to their arguments in the play. Whereas Jeff would like them to continue this relationship, Matt, based on his own experiences in New York before meeting Jeff, is very concerned that he himself is positive and just does not want to risk any relationship with Jeff that might end up compromising Jeff's health as well.

David Furst: Thursday, your character of Professor Diane Gold is this renowned researcher who runs this lab full of grad students. How would you describe her relationship with her students, especially Matt and Jeff?

Thursday Farrar: It's funny, I would say friend, mother, teacher. I think she's the maternal archetype that we don't have. We used to have a mother in the other iteration of the script. I think Dr. Gold takes over and sees these amazing, bright, young, fascinating young men. Matt comes in with this desire to do something that most med students don't want to do. Yet she has to sometimes kick them in the butt to slow down and breathe and listen to the science. I think that she's their friend and their mentor.

David Furst: A lot of professors would normally try to stay out of their students' lives, but she really advises Matt and Jeff to be careful at one point. Can you talk about--

Thursday Farrar: [chuckles] It's an awkward place to be. As a mother, as a friend, want to make sure that your friendships are safe and healthy, but you don't, as a professor, want to intrude on someone's personal life. There's a awkward exchange that she has with both Jeff and Matt about what she knows about their personal life, and how does she tell them literally to be careful about what is a potential-- Since we don't know how it's being transmitted, since I don't know all the evidence, we don't have the evidence at the time that I try to make sure that they're careful.

David Furst: You're dealing with that frustration of not knowing.

Thursday Farrar: Yes. I know how much they care about each other. They obviously do, and they're two caring people. I would call her mom. [laughs]

Matt Walker: Oh, sorry. That also rings just very true to what research is like. Researchers, we spend so much time in the laboratory. It's expected not just to be a job, but actually a passion, and you're expected to be there at all hours of the day and night. Relationships in laboratories are more than just purely a boss-employee dynamic. There is often a parental nature to it, a familial nature between laboratory colleagues.

David Furst: You say that the lab is expected to be a passion. That's an interesting choice. Does that passion start to replace any other passions in Matt's life?

Matt Walker: In Matt's life, I think for sure. He definitely, once this virus appears, he puts his head down. He says it himself in the play. He works 24/7 on research. Which also rings true to my own experience in the pandemic. When theater shut down, I absolutely buried my head in the laboratory, and was there at ridiculous hours to the sacrifice of my health and personal relationships. That resonates with me as well.

David Furst: I have to ask, how do you manage to work on pursuing your PhD while also acting in this big production?

Matt Walker: I've been very lucky with my advisors at Columbia who've let me take a month off during rehearsals, and now I'm back full-time in the lab before shows during the evenings. They're very supportive of this pursuit.

David Furst: Can you argue to them, "I'm basically in Columbia's lab on stage."

[laughter]

Matt Walker: Yes, exactly.

David Furst: You'd get some credit, maybe. Now, in response to the epidemic, Matt puts a stop to his relationship with Jeff, and even begins dating women at one point. What is the rationale for this decision?

Matt Walker: He definitely tries to explore that possibility and it doesn't go well, but he really makes an effort to have some personal romantic relationship. For him, given his history and his uncertainty and fear about this virus, the only way he could see a possibility of romance is by pursuing a date with a woman, and I won't give too much away, but it doesn't go well.

Thursday Farrar: No. It wasn't part of the research. At one point, they didn't think that women could get AIDS. There was some early on thinking that this was not a disease that women could have or transmit.

David Furst: There was a whole lot of wrong thinking early on.

Thursday Farrar: Yes.

David Furst: Thursday, throughout the play, your character, and really Jeff's characters, have this sense of optimism. They're able to retain this sense of optimism that progress can be made through research. Why do you think they're able to maintain this sense of hope in the face of so much struggle?

Thursday Farrar: I think that medicine and research of diseases is an ongoing process that I think really up until AIDS where we stopped caring about the people that were being affected. We always could find a solution. There was always a way to a solution. It may take years, but it's an ongoing process that always looks forward in a way.

I think that the one thing about medicine to me, even personally, is that there's a positive end to our research, that we can never stop going forward. I think that she doesn't see-- It never comes up in conversation that we are not going to find a solution or a protocol or some way to keep people from dying. We may not be able to find a way to keep you from transmitting, but we can try to keep people safe. I don't think that's ever not an option. It's just not an option.

David Furst: Meanwhile, Matt, your character seems to-- Even though he's completely immersed in his research, seems to really lack any hope, almost seems to feel like he's bound to be punished for promiscuity, even thinking about promiscuity. How does he handle all of this?

Matt Walker: No, I think you're right. Although I would say that Matt does gain some level of hope over the course of this play. That's one of the things that he takes from Jeff and his relationship with Jeff over the course of the play is a sense of hope. It's not an entirely hopeless character. I think he does have hope, especially for the science. I think that's one of the reasons why he buries himself in lab. He sees this scientific research as the possible way to find a solution to this virus, as you were saying, Thursday.

David Furst: Matt also has a complicated relationship with activism and how to get involved on that side.

Matt Walker: Absolutely, he does. He believes, having put his head down and buried himself in laboratory, believes very strongly that people need to choose what to dedicate their lives to, and that the only way to be very successful at one thing is to pursue it single sightedly. He does not see room in his life to be working as an advocate as well as a scientist.

David Furst: Going through this performance each time, how does it make you think about that era and about how to approach the ongoing health crisis?

Thursday Farrar: I could kick my young 20-year-old self for not seeing the whole impact of AIDS, and its political divisiveness, and how it affected, not only just gays, but those who were hemophiliacs, the heterosexual community, African American community, that didn't-- The fact that we didn't realize that drug users, when they talk about the junkie flu, that this might have been the precursor to AIDS, and how we just were so myopic.

Now that I'm older, I'm like, "Oh." We as a community, not only as actors, but as just human beings, now that we're seeing the transgender and this anti, anti, anti, it's time to just slow down and look at people for who they really are. Medicine doesn't have a place where you can discriminate against a whole group of people because you don't believe in their lifestyle.

David Furst: Some interesting thoughts during Pride Month.

Matt Walker: Yes, for sure. The play field is especially relevant now given that this is the month when the broader public is focusing on the queer community.

Thursday Farrar: Absolutely.

David Furst: What kind of conversations do you hope that audiences will have with their friends and family, and maybe lab mates will have after seeing the show?

Matt Walker: Certainly, I hope that people will come out of the show with a new appreciation of what it is like and what it means to do basic biology research, and the importance of undirected research. That's a huge draw to the piece, as I talked about earlier.

Thursday Farrar: I agree. I wish we could show this piece to every young, up-and-coming, high school, junior high school for the science, for them to understand this science. They're growing up in a much more fluid community, and their acceptance of our community sexually, gender-wise, but to inspire those young people that science is an amazing art form. I'm appreciating everything that Matt brings to the table. It's so amazing to have Matt as part of this play. I hope that young people will be inspired, and those in the gay community, those who are African American, would be inspired to be scientists.

David Furst: Maybe when the touring production gets going, you can bring it to all of those audiences. Did you want to jump in on that? It looked you were--

Matt Walker: No, I just agree completely with what you said.

David Furst: It's very brief. There's only so much you can get in there, but how does the show show how gay people and straight people mobilized for treatments and better care during the epidemic?

Thursday Farrar: I think that is a part of the show that we don't explore quite as much. You get to really talk about activism. Matt's compatriots there with Jeff and also Melissa, which is another character. I wish we could have been able to put more of that into the play. I hope that at some point when this play goes to Broadway, they'll have that extra act where they can actually talk about that. I think it's the key to really having this play come full circle. I think that's the part of the activism-- This is a part of the play that I hope that people go and say, "Now, I'm going to be active because of what I've seen in the history."

David Furst: It's inspirational. It's a great mix. I don't want it to get lost in this discussion. There's a lot of humor in this play as well.

Matt Walker: Absolutely. There's a lot of humor. There's a lot of life. There's a lot of love.

David Furst: Absolutely. Vibrant, a lot of love, a lot of life, and some laugh-out-loud stuff.

Matt Walker: Yes, definitely.

Thursday Farrar: You can't have the tragedy without comedy. They don't live separately. In all tragic stories, there is that sense of humanity, and some of it is in humor, in self-deprecation, and all that stuff.

David Furst: Matt, I have to ask, where do you go now because you're working on your PhD, you're in this great production?

Matt Walker: That's a good question. I'm thinking about the next hour, and literally, I'm heading up to lab after this.

David Furst: You're only focused on one hour at a time.

Matt Walker: I need to get my experiments done today. It's going to be a late night. That's where my mind is already on.

David Furst: I'm not helping.

Matt Walker: Exactly.

David Furst: Let me keep you here for a few more questions, Matt.

Thursday Farrar: I'm fascinated to know what Matt's going to do next.

David Furst: That's part two of this play, what's Matt going to do next?

Thursday Farrar: Going to do next.

David Furst: It really is. You're Matt playing Matt on stage. It's got to get complicated.

Matt Walker: Sometimes we have some slips where you say Professor Walker instead of Professor Mitchell. That's my character name. Those get complicated.

David Furst: We are here with Matt Mitchell-- [laughter] Matt Walker and Thursday Farrar. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thursday Farrar: Thank you.

Matt Walker: Thank you for having us.

David Furst: The show is called Love + Science, written by playwright, David J. Glass. This is running at the New York City Center through Thursday, July 6th. Thanks both so much.

Thursday Farrar: Thank you.

Matt Walker: Thanks.

 

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