[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Before Bert and Ernie and Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, there was Lamb Chop and Shari Lewis. A simple sock puppet with eyelashes plus a spunky, talented New Yorker got a deal for a live national television show in 1956 when Shari Lewis was only 24 years old. Shari Land was groundbreaking and phenomenally popular. There was merchandising deals, lunch boxes, and toys, but then cartoons took over the airwaves and television production moved to Hollywood. Rather than retire, Shari Lewis adapted and reinvented herself. There was the Vegas era.

There was the era when Lamb Chop would appear on talk shows tipsy and flirty, the guest star on TV shows era like Man from U.N.C.L.E. and Car 54, the spangled gowns and sex appeal era, the orchestra conductor era, the forgive her husband for infidelity era, and a reemergence in the early '90s with an Emmy Award-winning PBS kids show. One thing remained consistent, Shari Lewis was a survivor. This is all told in the new documentary Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop. It premieres this Saturday at the DOC NYC Film Festival. It's directed by Lisa D'Apolito. You may have seen her 2019 Emmy-nominated film Love, Gilda about the great Gilda Radner. Lisa, welcome to the studio.

Lisa D'Apolito: Hi, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. This is our first talk about the film, so I'm so excited.

Alison Stewart: Oh, I'm so happy that we're the first interview. This is great. Listeners, join our conversation. Did you grow up with Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop? What impact did they have on you? What do you remember about Shari Lewis or Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop? Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air or you can text to us at that number. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can also reach out on our social media @allofitwnyc. Let me ask you the question that we're asking our listeners. What kind of relationship did you have with Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop before you started this film?

Lisa D'Apolito: It's interesting because Shari had her show in the '50s and early '60s, and then she had her show in the '90s, so I wasn't a fan who watched her children's show, but I always knew Shari and I always adored Lamb Chop. I remember when I was first talking about the film, I remembered having a Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop lunchbox.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] When did it go from being an idea of like, "Oh, this is an interesting subject" to I'm going to make a film about this?

Lisa D'Apolito: I think once I met Mallory Lewis.

Alison Stewart: Who is Shari's daughter.

Lisa D'Apolito: Shari's daughter. We met at the Rubin Museum in the café here and we talked. Then Lamb Chop interviewed me [laughter] and we liked each other, we got on, and then the rest is history, really.

Alison Stewart: What did Lamb Chop want to know from you?

Lisa D'Apolito: This is interesting. It's a little heavier than a light thing-

Alison Stewart: Sure, of course.

Lisa D'Apolito: -because Shari was pregnant with Mallory when she passed away and I was pregnant when my mother passed away. We had this bonding that was deeper-

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Lisa D'Apolito: -than just Lamb Chop.

Alison Stewart: Wait, Mallory was pregnant when Shari passed away?

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes, and I was pregnant when my mom passed away, so we had a special kind of connection.

Alison Stewart: Sure. Oh, that's hard.

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Oh, but that's one of those things that only someone else in that position could understand.

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes, and it made us really bond pretty quickly.

Alison Stewart: The thing from the jump in the documentary that becomes very clear is that Shari Lewis is a New Yorker, extremely New York. She grew up in the Bronx and her folks were academics, but also show folk. Her mom was a pianist and ran a music programing for the Bronx public schools. How early did Shari show an aptitude for music and how much was her mom sending her that way?

Lisa D'Apolito: Shari's a combination. Shari Lewis could only be born in New York City. She was a combination of her mother, who was the music supervisor for the New York City schools, and her father, who was a math professor, but also the official magician of New York City designated by LaGuardia. Shari's parents both felt that teaching children was through entertainment. I think from the time, I don't know, she was born I would think she was exposed to all this.

Alison Stewart: It seemed like they gave her every kind of lesson possible. What were some of the things that she studied as a kid?

Lisa D'Apolito: Oh, God, she studied. She always had music and on the other side, she had juggling. She had puppeteering, she had ventriloquism, she had, I don't know, animal sound-making. Her house was filled with all kinds of interesting people at the time and we were coming off of the end of vaudeville, really.

Alison Stewart: She was a terrific dancer as well.

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Our phone lines are filling up. This is exciting. Let's talk to Annette calling in from the Upper West Side. Annette, thank you for calling in.

Annette: Hello. As I told your caller, I'm now 91 years old, but I have a vivid memory of waking my daughter up in the morning when she was little singing [sings] get up in the morning, jump out of bed, open your eyes, shake your head, and so on. Lovely memory.

Alison Stewart: Aw, and that is from The Shari Lewis Show, yes.

Lisa D'Apolito: Oh, I think that's what's exciting about Shari is that she's multigenerational. Every generation has a song or a memory of Shari, but I love that song and thank you for singing it.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Gregory from Harlem, one of our frequent callers. Hi, Gregory. Thank you for calling in.

Gregory: As a matter of fact, I still remember it. [sings] This is a song that never ends. Yes, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it without knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because. [laughter] You know it goes on and on.

Alison Stewart: Gregory, thank you.

Gregory: [unintelligible 00:07:50] It's just lovely, man. I just like it.

Alison Stewart: Thank you, Gregory. Lisa, can you explain what that song is that Gregory just sang?

Lisa D'Apolito: I think it's The Song That Doesn't End. I sing it as the song that never ends but it's a classic there. I think somebody has it on YouTube where they've looped it for like 36 hours or something like that.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I want to get back to a little bit about how Shari Lewis grew up. This was fascinating that her mother was a feminist and wouldn't read traditional fairy tales to her because she thought they portrayed women as helpless. When you think about Shari Lewis's career, what's a moment that we saw some of her feminist upbringing?

Lisa D'Apolito: I think from the beginning. I think from when she was on The Shari Lewis Show and there's a sketch that's in the film where Charlie Horse and Lamb Chop are going to play and he asked Lamb Chop, "What do you do?" and she's like, "I'm the president of the United States." He says, "Well, you can't be it because you're a girl," and then Lamb Chop rants on and on, so I would say from that time on.

Alison Stewart: We actually have that clip of Lamb Chop explaining about why women should be president. Let's take a listen.

Lamb Chop: 35 presidents, all men. Not one could do the job right. If they had gotten just one girl, she would have been enough.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] That is from Lamb Chop. We're talking to Lisa D'Apolito. The name of the film is Shari & Lamb Chop premiering at NYC DOC Fest this weekend. If you want to join our conversation, our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. If you grew up with Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop, we would love to hear from you. You go into the film about a ventriloquist named John W Cooper. Tell us a little bit about him and his impact on Shari Lewis.

Lisa D'Apolito: That was a really fascinating discovery. In the [unintelligible 00:09:59] Schomburg Library uptown, they have some letters between JW Cooper's daughter and Shari. JW Cooper was a vaudeville ventriloquist. He was African American. He was incredibly successful in his time and he taught Shari everything she knew. I think what's fascinating about him is he would do something called the barbershop where he would do several puppets at the same time. That's really Shari's expertise, so she must have learned that from him.

Alison Stewart: From researching her life, why do you think ventriloquism was so appealing to her given everything that she could do?

Lisa D'Apolito: I don't know. I think she really wanted to be a dancer, but she was only 4'11". I think that she was just so good at ventriloquy. She was so, so good. She was good at everything, but it was such a natural thing, so I don't know if she chose it or if it shows her.

Alison Stewart: What was the TV landscape like when Shari Lewis entered it and what was unique about her, what was different about her approach?

Lisa D'Apolito: Shari was a producer also from the beginning. She created her shows. She was always in charge of her shows. It was Shari Land. It was The Shari Lewis Show. I think that was different is that she was a boss. If you think about it, this was the early days of television in the late '50s and late '60s, so it's pretty revolutionary for a woman to be in charge.

Alison Stewart: So young.

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Patricia is calling in from Westchester. Hi, Patricia, thanks for calling in.

Patricia: Hi. I am so excited to see this documentary and to hear this and I'm blown away that Shari Lewis was only 5'11".

Alison Stewart: 4'11".

Patricia: I mean, 4'11". I was the daughter of your first caller, not in real life, but could have been, and was raised with Shari Lewis, and I just loved her as a kid. She was such an inspiration to me. It was an era where the puppeteers were men, you had Bill Baird and Jim Henson. It was men and there was this woman who just was so talented. I realized years later when I actually considered majoring in puppetry in college, and I wound up majoring in education, became a teacher, and reflected back on the puppeteers who had inspired me so and she was the main one right there. I wound up bringing puppets into my classroom.

I taught deaf children and deaf children don't have a real experience with puppets because they're oral, they're talking, and for many deaf kids, that's not accessible, so I made puppets who could sign with those kids, and saw the impact that puppetry had on children knowing the impact that it had on me. She's just amazing and just lives in my heart. She's such an inspiration. I have my Lamb Chop puppet right sitting here with me-

Alison Stewart: Oh, Patricia.

Patricia: -and will forever. I can't wait to see the documentary. Thank you for shining a spotlight on her. Just so excited.

Lisa D'Apolito: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Patricia, thank you for calling in. In your film, Lisa, you make the case that she was the predecessor to Mr. Rogers. How so?

Lisa D'Apolito: She spoke directly to the camera and she explained things. I think the audience had a connection with her and I think that's what Mr. Rogers also had the connection with the audience. That's parallel, but she was before him.

Alison Stewart: It's a little bit of a happy accident that she would talk so directly to the camera with Lamb Chop. Would you explain why?

Lisa D'Apolito: She says she was nearsighted, so she had to reach into the camera to be able to see the cue cards, but I think she always connected with audiences. I think that was her appeal is that she didn't talk down to the audience, she talked at them. Not at them, she talked to them.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Lisa D'Apolito. We're talking about the new documentary, Shari & Lamb Chop, which will premiere this weekend at Village East by Angelika as part of DOC NYC. Our phone lines are full, we'll take more of your calls about your experience with Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop and we'll hear more about the documentary in just a moment. This is All Of It.

[music]

This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guess is Director Lisa D'Apolito. Her film is Shari & Lamb Chop. It will be screening as part of DOC NYC at the Village East this Saturday. Lisa will be there as well as Mallory Lewis, Shari Lewis's daughter and special guest, Lamb Chop. There's this really powerful scene in your film where Shari talks about her relationship with Lamb Chop. Let's take a listen.

[music]

Shari Lewis: I kept looking for God in my puppets and could not find one until Lamb Chop.

Lamb Chop: [unintelligible 00:15:12] with that thing

Shari Lewis: Which thing? Oh, that thing?

Lamb Chop: Yes, that thing.

Shari Lewis: That's a camera.

Lamb Chop: A camera?

Shari Lewis: Yes.

Lamb Chop: Oh.

[laughter]

Shari Lewis: It was so clear that I had found myself in myself. After all Lamb Chop, what am I without you? Nothing.

Lamb Chop: I feel the same way about you.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: There are so many poignant moments about that in the film like that. This relationship between Shari and Lamb Chop, things that Lamb Chop could say but Shari couldn't. What was an example of something that Lamb Chop could say and put out in the world that maybe a young woman like Shari couldn't?

Lisa D'Apolito: I think Shari did that throughout her life. I think it was a way for her to be able to be in charge of her story. Later on in life when we talk about in the film about ageism in Hollywood, and how youth is so--

Alison Stewart: Prized, yes.

Lisa D'Apolito: Prized. A reporter asked Lamb Chop, "How old are you?" and she says, "How cute I am is my business." I think that those little things all the time Shari is saying is because she couldn't say that as herself too like, "How dare you ask how old?" but Lamb Chop could say these things.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Lucille calling in from Highland Park, New Jersey. Hi, Lucille.

Lucille: Hi.

Lisa D'Apolito: Hello.

Lucille: Hello, can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on the air.

Lucille: Oh, okay. I was calling because I grew up with great affection for Shari Lewis and her stories and Lamb Chop and Charlie Horse and just how much love and respect and caring and teaching went into her shows. The story I mentioned was that, more recently, they started to sell Lamb Chop as a pet toy and it drove me crazy. I would buy the Lamb Chop so that it wouldn't wound up being a chew toy. Only I wound up running out of money because they were showing up everywhere all of a sudden. That was the story I wanted to share.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for calling in. Yes, it was interesting to see the merchandising of Lamb Chop was everywhere.

Lisa D'Apolito: The dog toys is pretty phenomenal. On Instagram, I think there's like a 10,000 post with people and their dogs and Lamb Chop. I know Mallory, Shari's daughter, has a joke about it. She doesn't really like Lamb Chop being chewed up either..

Alison Stewart: I can imagine. Let's talk to Andy from Hackensack or Ondi. Ondi, thanks for calling in.

Ondi: Hi.

Lisa D'Apolito: Hello.

Ondi: Thank you for having me. Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on the air.

Ondi: Oh, okay, great. I actually went to high school with Mallory and I spent many evenings having dinner with the Tarcher family. Shari was just amazing, I have to say that she was a pioneer in her time. Also, I don't know if anybody knows this, but she was a bit of a health nut. She would not endorse cereals that had too much sugar in them. I was so impressed by that as a teenager. We loved her dearly. She was such a good person, such as strong woman, and a good human being.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Her strength comes through in this film in an amazing way. There was a period in her life, in her professional life when she was not the top person on the call sheet. She was not the first person to call to be on a television show. She really had to hustle for a while. There was the sense I got from her or got from your documentary that she was like, "Okay, roll up my sleeves. Let's do this." There wasn't any self-pitying that "I'm not a big TV star" in the late '60s and early '70s.

Lisa D'Apolito: I think Shari says that herself. She was the queen of reinvention. She would just keep going. Even though she wasn't on television, she was working. She was doing fairs, she was doing Vegas. She decided all of a sudden I'm going to start conducting orchestras. She always reinvented herself. What I love about her story is that in her late '50s and '60s, she's back on television in a children's show dancing and singing and having fun. I think that shows her endurance.

Alison Stewart: Somebody texted to us, "Shari Lewis kissed me at Cowboy Town, which she was making a personal appearance not at the height of her career, around 1965." I believe there's a story in the documentary you tell where only a few people show up for an event and she does the whole show.

Lisa D'Apolito: Yes. That was one of my favorite stories is that Shari always wanted to please an audience and she was never going to let an audience down. Even if four people show up, she's going to do her whole show.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Eddie on line three. Hi, Eddie. Thank you for calling in. Eddie's calling from Queens.

Eddie: I'd like to say thank you for what a wonderful insight. I'm learning so much about someone I didn't know much about. I do like to second the motion that she was a pioneer. She really opened up the doors and paved the way for a lot of people that actually the whole aspect of ventriloquist and the people who came before who are using this whole art because I consider this is really an art and it's used in so many forms to give a voice. To give a voice to, especially in education-

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Eddie: -in a therapeutic way. Therapeutically for children to understand that you engage them because they no longer have to feel so disconnected. I love that what's being said. I look forward to seeing the documentary. I'm 72 and I was attracted to many little of the puppeteers. That's ancient history if you think about it.

Alison Stewart: Eddie, you know what? I'm going to jump in there for a second because I want to get to one more clip from your documentary. One of the things that becomes clear, you interview a modern ventriloquist, was her skillset of being able to be Shari and two other characters at the same time. Let's take a listen to a clip we have of Shari, [chuckles] this is amazing, Shari and Lamb Chop together.

Shari Lewis: What can you do?

Lamb Chop: Anything. Anything. As long as I am the star.

[music]

Lamb Chop: [sings] I want to be a star on television.

Shari Lewis: [sings] Television. Television.

Lamb Chop: I want to be a star on television when everybody's have a look at me.

Alison Stewart: In the documentary, you go into her life story, into her marriages. She had a few marriages. There was infidelity in her second marriage and she seemed determined to work through it. Why was that an important part of this story to tell?

Lisa D'Apolito: What Shari said is everyone has issues. Everyone has career, relationship, parent issues and I think it was important to show that. Also, her husband is a very colorful character too being the king of a self-help novel book. He published new age books and he went very new age, which was the opposite of what Shari was ever about. I found that pretty fascinating.

Alison Stewart: What do you think her legacy is?

Lisa D'Apolito: Oh, God. I hope it's more than just Lamb Chop and I hope this film shows you that Shari was more than just Lamb Chop. I think that she could have been maybe a bigger star if she didn't invent puppet that was so incredibly charming that overpowered her. That could just be my opinion, but I think in terms of ventriloquy, I am going to go on record saying I think she's the best of all time because no one can sing and do all those puppets at the same time. It's fascinating to see all the other talent.

Alison Stewart: Oh my God, what a dancer. She was an amazing dancer and vocalist. You get to see a full palette of Shari Lewis's talents in this film. Shari & Lamb Chop is premiering this weekend at Village East, part of DOC, NYC. Thank you so much to everybody who called in, people who got on the air, and people who didn't. We really appreciate your contribution. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us.

Lisa D'Apolito: Oh, thank you. I'm really excited. There's also a second screening on Tuesday, November 14th at IFC.

Alison Stewart: Excellent. That is All Of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart, I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

 

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