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Tiffany Hanssen: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen filling in for Alison Stewart today. For young people growing up, leaving the nest is a rite of passage. The social pressures to move out of your parents' house are everywhere. There are these stigmas against living in your parents' basement, failure to launch, but in a lot of circumstances, especially in today's challenging economy, it can be the smartest, maybe most rational choice. A 2021 survey from Pew Research found that one-third of Americans believe it's bad for young people to live with their parents.

About half of people aged 18 to 29 do make the choice to stay at home. Many cite financial reasons, the desire to save money. For others, it can be about being there to assist with their aging parents. It really depends on the culture because in a lot of places outside of the US, especially intergenerational households, are the norm, not the exception. We're going to talk about two of the salient factors involved with younger people going back and living at home. The psychology and the financial factor. Joining me to talk about both of them is Mike Dang. Mike, am I saying that right?

Mike: Yes, you are.

Tiffany: Okay. Good, Mike Dang, New York Times personal finance editor, and Satya Doyle Byock, a psychotherapist and author of the book Quarterlife: The Search for Self in Early Adulthood. Satya, did I get your name right as well? I hope.

Satya: You did, absolutely.

Tiffany: Now, welcome to both of you.

Satya: Thanks for having us.

Tiffany: Absolutely. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you a young adult, 20s, 30s, you're living with your parents? How's it going? What prompted you to move home? Parents, if you have a young adult living at home with you, we want to hear from you. How's the financial arrangement going? What are the guardrails you've set up? Parents and young adults, both of you. We'd love to hear from both ends of this conversation.

For sure. You can give us a call at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, and of course, you can always tweet and DM us on Instagram @allofitwnyc. Mike, I want to talk with you quickly just setting the stage here for why this moment is different. Is it really the pandemic put the financial squeeze on young people and that's why we're in this situation we're in with more younger people moving home?

Mike: Yes, I think it's a lot of different things. Young people have always moved home at the beginning of their careers because they start out their jobs going out of college at the bottom of their pay skill. They don't have a ton of money where they can go out and rent an apartment. During the pandemic, that obviously made it more difficult for young people to find jobs and go out. A lot of people were moving back in with their parents and living with their families in general because they wanted to remain safe during the pandemic.

That made it a lot more common for people to live together in family clusters. Then in the post-pandemic world where we are trying to figure out how to live and work again, I think that with everything happening in the economy, everything costing a lot more with student debt, it's just a lot more difficult to find affordable housing nowadays. People are paying more at the grocery store.

With rising costs, it just makes a lot more sense for young people to move back home with their parents to save a lot of money and also not going to debt because as inflation is continuing to rise, housing costs of all the things right now remains high. That is the number one thing that is remaining high right now. A lot of young people just can't find affordable housing and make that move right now for them.

Tiffany: Satya, for folks who don't know your book aren't familiar with the term quarterlife explain that for us. What period of life are we talking about here?

Satya: Quarterlife is the stage of adulthood between adolescences and midlife. It's a term that I use consistently in my work because I think the term young adulthood often confuses us of who we're really talking about. The term quarterlife covers these first two decades of adulthood.

Tiffany: What are the hallmarks of young person's psychological development during those years?

Satya: Well, quarterlife is really about learning independence. We train people for dependency whether through school, through household, growing up with your parents, even through coaches and athletics. We're really trained to look to the authority and develop some degree of dependence. Young adulthood in this conversation is really all about learning independence. That becomes really tricky, of course, when the economy makes it almost impossible for quarterlifers to get out on their own and find stability, whether it's because of housing prices, student loans, wages, all the rest.

Tiffany: I have to imagine that some people, not all but some people depending on what community you're in, have a stigma associated with living at home, going back home. That has to have some a detrimental effect on their psychological well-being.

Satya: Absolutely. We put quarterlifers in a very difficult bind in our society. We're sending all sorts of messages about what we expect of them and what we think is appropriate for them developmentally, but we're also not making it very easy. In fact, in many cases, it's impossible for people to leave home and thrive. There's a lot of stigma attached, certainly with people moving back home.

As you've expressed, different cultures have treated this differently throughout time and also have treated different genders differently throughout time in regards to whether people were expected to leave home and get married or expected to join a company or follow in their parents' footsteps career-wise.

Tiffany: I want to get to our callers right away here. I have Mike from East Rockaway. Hi, Mike.

Mike: Hey, thanks.

Tiffany: You have a couple of kids?

Mike: Yes, I do. I'm very proud of both of them. They moved away at least two to six years ago, two to four, and I'm very proud of everything they do.

Tiffany: And you were happy while they were home? You felt like that was a good move?

Mike: It's not so bad that they were home, but I'm happy being an empty nester and knowing my kids are moving forward.

Tiffany: Satya, I want to just say, Mike had a positive experience. That's not always the case, but it sounds like Mike's kids are doing well. Mike's pleased with the outcome. There can be an upside here. Psychologically speaking, you can get a good bump from this right when it works well.

Satya: Absolutely. How parents and children navigate this is certainly critical. I think because young adults are shifting from dependence to independence, the more the whole family system understands that developmental goal, the better off. If quarterlifers fully understand their job is to do the best they can financially while living at home, but still developmentally, psychologically be moving towards independence and the life they want afterwards, they're going to be better off. The more their parents can understand that that's what they're doing, they're not still teenagers just because they're at home. That's a very important differentiation.

Tiffany: Mike, I want to talk about these guardrails and the expectations that people put up because I have to imagine the more clarity there is around the financial situation going into this arrangement, the better. Is that an accurate statement?

Mike: Yes, that's right. Some parents are just happy to take in their adult children and just let them thrive and save and pay off debt. Some other parents want them to pay a little bit of rent and practice having some financial obligations that they're going to have to deal with in the real world. Even paying $100, $200 a month to help the parents pay for a couple of bills, that could be something that's helpful.

A lot of parents also like to set rules, "My house, my rules." That can be difficult for some children who may not like having some of those rules where they have to ask for friends to visit or if they're dating someone, to bring someone home. That's just things that they might not have to deal with if they were living on their own. Trying to work out what's appropriate with their parents, can be hard for a lot of adult children.

Tiffany: I want to go to Joe in Morristown. Joe, you have done this. You lived at home as an adult with your parents. How'd it go?

Joe: I moved out after I was 30. I was dating my girlfriend at the time and she pretty much said that I can't move in with her until I manage on my own. I had to go on Craigslist and find three other people because it's just way too expensive to live on your own. I had a horrible experience really with my roommates, and I eventually convinced my girlfriend and now my wife to let me move in with her.

I pretty much wanted to say that I know that there's obviously the major reason why people don't want to move out is money. Really, I think the only major reason for people to feel like they should move out is societal pressure. I really feel like if there wasn't a stigma, if there wasn't this idea of, "You're a loser," let's be frank, especially more for men in their late 20s, early 30s. If there wasn't that stigma, I don't think as many people would mind.

Really, not everyone has this fortune, but if you're lucky enough to have great supportive parents and people who don't mind you staying at home, there's really no reason if you don't have to move out unless you're trying to hook up with someone [chuckles]. That could be awkward if your parents are in the next room. Regardless, there's really no reason to move out aside from people telling you that that's what you should be doing.

Tiffany: Satya, is he right? [chuckles]

Satya: Look, I think he's partially right. I think the tricky thing is culture has handled this differently throughout time. American culture has handled this differently, but across the world, this is being handled differently all the time. Again, as he says, for genders, girls maybe have an easier time living at home later on, but they're considered spinsters if they stay too long whereas men don't get that same bias. It's very, very tricky across the board. I think the larger thing is this question of can people learn to take care of themselves, learn relational skills, learn financial management skills?

I want to be very clear, we are not making this easy for quarterlifers. We're making it exceedingly difficult. Then to his point, we are making fun of them a lot in culture as well. I do think that there's a lot of skills, relational skills, developmental skills, cooking for oneself, the list goes on and on, that are important to learn when you're living on your own.

Tiffany: Mike, one of those skills might be learning to handle your finances.

Mike: That's right. A lot of the young people that we've reported on, they are learning especially how to pay down debt. With student loans being as high as they are now, we had one young adult who had $53,000 in student loan debt. That's just really hard to pay off when you're dealing with high housing costs, high food costs right now. Going home and being able to pay down that debt, it puts you in a better financial position, also teaches you how to manage all your expenses, and puts you in a stronger position as you are trying to earn a lot more money because you're not earning a lot of money at the very beginning of your career.

Tiffany: I want to get to some calls again, but we're going to take a quick break. If you are a parent or a young adult who has moved back home, what are the financial challenges? How has it been challenging to your psychological well-being? Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can tweet us, DM us on Instagram @allofitwnyc. We'll have more after the break.

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Tiffany: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen in for Allison Stewart. We're talking this hour about parents, children who are-- young adults. We can't really call them children anymore, can we, Satya? Young adults in the quarterlife who are back home for financial reasons, for socioeconomic reasons, for all sorts of reasons. We're talking about all of it with Mike Dang, New York Times personal finance editor, and Satya Doyle Byock, psychotherapist and author of Quarterlife: The Search for Self in Early Adulthood. I want to go right away to Patty in Pennsylvania. Hi, Patty.

Patty: Hi. How are you?

Tiffany: Good. What's your situation?

Patty: I have three young adults of my four young adult's home. One of them moved across country. My oldest who's 29 this year recently bought a house because when he got his full-time job, I allowed him to stay here. He stayed here for a year and saved almost every penny other than his bills and his student loans and things like that and was able to have a nice down payment for his house and he's moved out. We have had to do some life coaching, to your earlier point.

We've had conversations about budget once he became aware of the need to. We've had conversations about menu planning and things along those lines. He came to meeting those things once he was on his own, and I was able to coach him through it from afar. It worked for us. I also have a 22-year-old and a 24-year-old at home, and they're both trying to figure their things out. Until they do, they'll be here and it's okay. If they need to do something socially, like your other friend suggested, they find ways to go out and about and do it.

Tiffany: Mike, it sounds like it worked really well for Patty's kids. At least her son was able to save some money. What's the situation like when everybody is struggling financially? How do we expect parents and young adults to navigate that situation?

Mike: I think that this is very common in a lot of different cultures, especially Latino Hispanic families where people live in multi-generational households where they all put their money together until people figure it out whether it's the children get better jobs or the parents get in better financial standing. If everyone is struggling, everyone pitches in. They figure out how to make the financial situation better and it's a team effort.

Tiffany: Satya, I want to go to Eddie in Brooklyn. Hi, Eddie.

Eddie: Hi. How are you?

Tiffany: Good. What's your experience?

Eddie: My experience moving back home. I moved back home. I'm born and raised in Brooklyn. I lived in LA for a little bit, but I moved back home about a year ago. It has been a hard experience because I've been on my own since I entered college and then I moved out of my house. Moving back home as a 29-year-old, I think I deal with the questions from friends, like "Oh, where are you living now? How is it?" And just confused about how to answer the question, and if I should feel ashamed or not.

You hear your friend's response saying, "Oh, that's good. You're saving money." [laughs] Things that don't feel so affirming because everyone's living on their own. It comes with its discomfort for sure.

Tiffany: Satya, it can be good if you have a network of friends who are supportive. Not always the case, obviously. I can see how trying to navigate those conversations with your friends and still maintain your own self-worth and self-esteem in all of this, it's got to be tough.

Satya: Sure. I have no doubt. I think when Eddie says, "I don't know if I should feel ashamed," I want to just say, of course, you should not feel ashamed. I think we really need to emphasize that this is a cultural issue. This is a social issue, it's a political issue, really. We are doing an incredibly bad job of taking care of quarterlifers. I think of this as a social justice issue. This is a stage of life that really used to be much more supported in decades past for the boomer generation.

The cost of student loans was far lower. The difference is inconceivable. The cost of living was so much lower at the time. We really need to emphasize that for people who are moving back home in order to save money, whether it's to save up for a down payment or to pay off student loans, these simply weren't issues of decades past. It's absolutely not a personal issue. It's not a personal issue of shame by any means. Everyone's sorting this out in their own way and it's great that Eddie's figuring it out.

Tiffany: I want to go to Teresa in West Lafayette, Indiana. Hi, Teresa.

Teresa: Hi. How are you?

Tiffany: What's your experience? I'm good, thank you.

Teresa: My experience is that I agree with what was just said. In the past, we have different situation economically speaking and socially speaking as well. Right now, I mean, not right now, maybe five years or a little bit longer, 10 years, I think we have to remove the taboo about going back to your parents because it's not a taboo. Not only social. You will grow up. If you need to grow up when you are in high school, you grew up. If you need after that or in college, or once you are an adult, like married or your own life, you will grow up.

Right now, I found it very cruel to send the kids right after high school to live on their own and learn manage the money, washing the clothes, buying groceries, spending time for studying, deciding which courses, all those things gets anxiety to the young population. Obviously, they want freedom, but if they stay with their parents, they will help with that easily.

If you have to go back where you are in there doing college or you have to go back, let's remove that taboo out because I think it's cruel. They are hurting the young population. I agree that they should remove that taboo, they will learn what they have to learn. It's not that it's imperative to send them out to live on their own and they will learn. They will suffer.

Tiffany: Mike, and I don't know, Satya, maybe you can chime in here too, but part of I think getting rid of a taboo is talking about it. Let's just talk about it, and then we take away some of the mystery around it. Mike, part of talking about it is really going to be creating that plan headed into the relationship, a new relationship from what you had before with your parents if you're a young adult, and financially speaking, laying out things as clearly as possible, I have to believe helps grease the wheel there, right?

Mike: Yes. Especially if you're a young adult, you're moving home, but you're also gaming out what your plan is to eventually leave. You want to have that discussion where this isn't going to be a permanent situation. I'm not going to move home and expect my parents to support me for an indefinite amount of time and do my laundry and cook all my food for me, and I'm just going to live an easy life. That's just not what the plan is.

Young adults who want to move home, they should have an honest conversation with their parents on what their plan actually is in the next year, in the next two years when they want to be able to move out how much money do they need. Every city requires a different amount of money just depending on what the housing cost is. Once you hit those goals, you can be like, "I'm ready to maybe move out in the next month or two because I've saved the $14,000, $15,000 over the course of two years that I needed to move out.

Tiffany: Right. Satya, on the mental health side of this, setting up healthy boundaries, having conversations around that at the beginning, it's got to be key, right?

Satya: Certainly. If not at the beginning, I imagine there's often a bit of chaos and grief in the moving back-in situation if that's what's happening, but all throughout the relationship, really continuing to clarify what is expected from all the parties is so important. It can be really valuable work while living at home together to continue to differentiate who each person is and work on family communication for the long run.

It's really an opportunity for everyone to grow alongside each other and to continue growing into these different stages of life. It's not just the quarterlifers the young adults who are changing their stage of life, it's also the older parents who are moving towards old age and empty nest life. All those conversations can be really valuable to be having.

Tiffany: Right. Talking, talking, talking. That sounds like it's the key here on both sides for your mental health and also for your financial health. Satya Doyle Byock is a psychotherapist and author of the book Quarterlife: The Search for Self in Early Adulthood. Satya, thanks so much for joining us today.

Satya: Thank you for having me.

Tiffany: Mike Dang is New York Times personal finance editor. Easy for me to say. Mike, thanks so much for joining us.

Mike: Thank you so much.

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