Tiffany Hanssen: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen filling in for Alison Stewart. By now, many of you have seen the logo for the new We Love New York City campaign. The reactions have been mixed to negative to very negative, but instead of piling on the new logo, we wanted to explore its origins. We Love NYC is, of course, a riff on the classic I Love New York, the tidy little square logo with four characters, three typewriter-esque letters, and one red heart.

Milton Glaser created that design back in 1976, reportedly pro bono for a campaign to boost tourism during some especially dark years in New York's history. At that point, Glaser had been working as a prominent graphic designer for a couple of decades. Most famously, he'd done the psychedelic poster for Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits album. A new book out next Friday titled Milton Glaser: Pop details Glaser's career over those two decades and features his work across book covers, posters, album art, and more, including unpublished designs.

The book is co-authored by Steven Heller, an MFA co-chair at the School of Visual Arts where Glaser taught for 10 years. Beth Kleber is the founding archivist for the Milton Glaser Design Study Center and Archives, and Mirko Ilić is a designer and illustrator and former collaborator of Glasers. Welcome to All Of It.

Mirko Ilić: Thank you.

Beth Kleber: Thank you.

Tiffany Hanssen: Listeners, of course, we want you. Our phone lines are open. What do you think makes the original I Love NY logo so iconic? If you were a New Yorker in the '70s, what do you remember about the logo's unveiling? Of course, that song we just heard that's now going to be stuck in your head for the rest of the day. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on Instagram, Twitter @AllOfItWNYC. Let's start with this original I Heart NY logo.

Beth, the book outlines the decades of Glaser's career, '60s, '70s, obviously. I said he created the logo. What made him the right man for the job? He was in the right place at the right time, but why was he the right man for that job?

Beth Kleber: I think, beginning with the establishment of Push Pin Studios in the '50s and with Push Pins' role of defining this whole new graphic vocabulary and incorporating references to our history, but also things that were very contemporary and part of the current culture. I think there was a feeling that Milton Glaser could really put out a message that people would respond to that they would understand, that would be accessible, but also witty and fun.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mirko, I want to ask you, you worked with him. Why do you think he was the right man for the job?

Mirko Ilić: Partly because Milton was very, very New York. Everything about Milton was New York. He started New York Magazine. He started gourmet references and books about small restaurants in New York. Everything, what Milton did was about New York.

Tiffany Hanssen: How did he feel about the city at that time that also may have made him the right person for the job? Sort of acknowledging where the city was at at that point.

Mirko Ilić: That was quite huge job for that time. If somebody decide to do that for free, isn't that telling you about feeling of that person towards the city? He actually put a heart in the city. He was the one.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes. Steven, we talk about that he did it pro bono. Can you tell us a little bit up around the story and the lore around how he created that original design in a cab?

Steven: Well, he did it on a napkin. He was a punster, as all graphic designers are. They create complex ideas in simple forms, and Milton was as good as it got when it came to making those puns. When you think about it, it just took him a couple of minutes to come up with an idea that probably could have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of fees. It was there, and as Mirko said, he was New York. He was the embodiment of New York.

It was just the perfect thing to do at that time. What he didn't expect is that he would lose all rights to it. He was never really able to use it for his own purposes, nor did he want to but it was interesting how kept away from his personal estate, his ownership.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, we're talking about something that is uniquely New York, so I want to talk to New Yorkers. Susan in Manhattan. Hi, Susan. Susan, are you there? Susan is not there. That's all right. We'll come back to Susan in a minute.

We'll see if we can get her back. Of the iterations and the drafts that the logo may have went through from that initial scribble on a napkin, Beth, how many of those versions were there before we finally settled on that one that everyone knows now?

Beth Kleber: I believe he submitted an initial design that was accepted by the New York State Department of Commerce, who had given him the job in the first place. I don't know what that is, and I'm not sure anyone knows what that is, but when he was famously in the New York City cab, he had the idea for the I Heart New York and the Little Square and wrote on the napkin, and I believe that was his second proposal and they were actually going to go ahead with the initial one.

Milton said, "Wait, I have a better one. Here it is." I think they were initially concerned that that symbol was too cryptic, that people wouldn't be able to interpret it, which is crazy looking at it now, but obviously, it took on a life of its own.

Tiffany Hanssen: Right. We have Susan back, Susan in Manhattan. Hi Susan. Welcome to All Of It.

Susan in Manhattan: Hi.

Tiffany Hanssen: Hi. There you are.

Susan in Manhattan: Thank you. Yes, I am. I was lucky enough to work with Milton Glaser on two magazine redesigns, and I learned so much. It was like sitting at the foot of the Buddha.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mirko, what do you say about that? Do you think that's an accurate assessment? Was it sitting at the foot of the Buddha?

Mirko Ilić: That was very, very tall Buddha.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs] Did he have that command of presence and calm and dispensing design wisdom that one might interpret from her description of him as the design Buddha?

Mirko Ilić: I was knowing Milton for maybe 20-something years, or 30. I saw him twice angry. He was never angry, for some reason, and being in business in which he was, there was many reasons to be angry. Also, Milton was one of the rare designers who can speak about design, but not necessarily about his own work. He really had knowledge.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want you to speak about his design a little bit. What is it that makes that design so successful?

Mirko Ilić: Many, many years of experience. Also seeing him how he worked. He worked really easy. He will just draw something and that will be that. He didn't question himself. He didn't doubt and knowing that in half-hour he going to draw something else and in half-hour something else and he was just moving along extremely smoothly and that's partly why he produced probably 10,000 pieces of art, if not more.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. I want to go to Jen in Manhattan. Hi Jen. Welcome to All Of It. Our callers are having trouble connecting with us today. That's all right. I have plenty to keep us going. We have Jen. There she is.

Jen in Manhattan: Sorry, can you hear me?

Tiffany Hanssen: I can hear you, Jen.

Jen in Manhattan: Hi. I just wanted to call in and say that I own a tattoo shop in New York City and I actually have his logo tattooed on my finger, and I got it the day after 9/11. It's been one of my most copied tattooed-- copy tattoos. Not that I can take credit for the design, of course, but a lot of clients and friends have come in and gotten the same tattoo so.

Tiffany Hanssen: Thank you. Thanks for calling. I want to ask about that 9/11 reference she made there. He changed his design after 9/11. Beth, you're nodding. Explain what he did there.

Beth Kleber: Immediately in the aftermath of 9/11, Milton went back to his I Heart New York logo and added the text more than ever, so it read, "I love New York more than ever" and added a little black smudge to the bottom left side of the heart, sort of looking at the heart as if it were a map of Manhattan and placing the smudge where the World Trade Center towers would have been. I think it's looking at that logo, but looking at the idea of New York as meaning something to him beyond a place, but something that made him who he was, where he built his career, and expressing that feeling that native New Yorkers feel about the place that they live.

Tiffany Hanssen: We're talking about a book titled Milton Glaser: Pop. It's out next Friday. We're talking with Steven Heller, Beth Kleber, and Mirko Ilić about Milton Glaser. We want you to join the conversation, listeners. Our phone lines are open for you. What do you think of that original I Heart NY logo? What makes it iconic? Were you here in the '70s? Do you remember the logo's unveiling? Do you remember the music? 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. You can hit us up on Twitter @AllOfItWNYC and we'll be back with more of Milton Glaser in just a minute here on All Of It.

[music]

This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen, in for Alison Stewart and we are talking about Milton Glaser: Pop, a new book out next Friday. Talking with Steven Heller, Beth Kleber, and Mirko Ilić about-- right now we're telling you about the iconic I Heart NY logo. I want to go right away to Pat in Springfield. Hi Pat. Welcome to All Of It.

Pat in Springfield: Hello. Hey. I was a teenager in the '70s and this thing was beyond ubiquitous. There was no money in the city, it was dirty, it was dangerous. Any images that they show today of what it looked like back then, just 10 times worse but this thing was on the subways. It was a commercial that ran with these tremendous Broadway stars. They were doing it gratis. It was just a tremendous energy. It was at that time, a year later or so they had the operation sale and it was all over the city then. The Yankees started winning, Ed Koch won city hall and it just felt like this all started with this little germ of, "Who would ever even think to love this place? It's dirty. It's dangerous," but somebody did and it just took off from there.

Tiffany Hanssen: I love it. Thanks, Pat. Steven, were you here in the '70s?

Steven Heller: I've been here all my life.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. Is his description of life back then accurate?

Steven Heller: It's accurate, but for me, it was still the most beautiful place on earth. Still is. What I thought was great about I Heart New York was that it was the kind of image that we'd all use on our notebooks in school. I love so and so, I heart so and so. It was just so natural a term and an icon that existed before Milton transformed it into a New York icon.

Tiffany Hanssen: Beth, we talk about this as being an iconic bit of design, really playing on, we're talking about this period during the '70s gritty, but there was a lot of design elements in the zeitgeist at that time that he could draw upon, I'm assuming. There were rainbows. I mean, come on it was the '70s. How do you justify both of those elements in his design? How can we reconcile those two things? The grittiness and that sunshine and rainbows and big red heart?

Steven Heller: Well, he lived in St. Mark's place.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yeah.

Steven Heller: It was the heart of the East Village. It was the heart of hippiedom. It may have been full of trash, but it was part of the Zeitgeist. While he was older than the hippie generation, he still was aware of what was going on in terms of color, and form, and shape, and he included that into his work. One thing influenced another, he influenced the times, and the times influenced him. There was this sense of hope and abandon and anarchy. Everything was going on at the same time. President Ford's dictum notwithstanding, it was still New York.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to go to Dan in White Plains. Hi, Dan.

Dan in White Plains: Hey, how are you doing?

Tiffany Hanssen: Good.

Dan: One of your guests may have just answered this, but I would dispute it. I don't really remember the heart being used as I heart something prior to this. My question was, had been, before he said that, did Glaser invent the use of heart to be "I love something"? Because I really, I don't recall it before this, I thought this was the progenitor.

Steven Heller: It was not the progenitor. It was used all the time. Particularly Valentine's Day, the heart was-- I mean, that heart is not what our heart looks like. It's a symbolic representation. You can put it in many different orientations and it still comes out as the heart. I remember often drawing hearts and sending them to my classmate in the desk next to me.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes. Beth, I want to go back to that notion of grittiness and rainbows and just talking about how that contrarian thoughts, design thoughts come in to his work. How do we see both of those sides represented? Both of those elements of New York represented in his work?

Beth Kleber: In the I Heart New York logo?

Tiffany Hanssen: Any of his work.

Beth Kleber: I think that Milton Glaser took his influences from everywhere. He was omnivorous, he loved to read, he loved to eat, he was immersed in culture at all times. I think all of that was brought in in various ways in his work. He was not wed to a specific style, and he just wanted to create designs that were satisfying to him, that were witty, that people might respond to, and that responded to the needs of the client. You have something like I Heart New York which is both supremely legible, but also, playful and almost childlike in that-- how Steve was saying that that using a heart as representing love is something that anyone could recognize as something in how they communicate with other people.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mirko, a lot of folks might recognize that Bob Dylan record cover that I mentioned. Does that fit with what Beth is talking about here? With that playfulness. Describe it for people who may not have seen it.

Mirko Ilić: Can I go for a second back?

Tiffany Hanssen: Of course.

Mirko Ilić: We are talking about heart, but we are not talking about typography around the heart. Because I don't think that typeface Milton used ever before or ever after. That's the only time he used that typeface. I think what is really important about that typeface, what also is playing into quality of logo, all corners they're round. All typeface is rounded, there is no danger on the type. Also, that typeface is called American typewriter. What I think, you put it American next to the heart what is quite nice. That's Milton.

About poster of Bob Dylan, which appear in the record, I think amazing about that poster is Milton took twist. You have Bob Dylan, and he didn't draw Bob Dylan. He's just black silhouette. He draw his hair. Everybody will pay attention drawing Bob Dylan, whatever the thing that Bob Dylan is. Of course, I must mention that Milton was not very good in drawing likeness but he is very clever about that. In this case, everybody knows that's Bob Dylan for a second. I think drawing state of mind of Bob Dylan, drawing these amazing things coming out of his head was Bob Dylan more than Bob Dylan face.

Tiffany Hanssen: I like it. Denise and Chelsea, welcome to All Of It. Hi, Denise.

Denise: Hi. Thank you so much. I just wanted to say that in '76, I was a tourist in New York for the first time staying at the Algonquin. That campaign had such a profound effect on me. I still remember Liza Minnelli on that commercial saying, "I love New York." I had such a fantastic experience. I made up my mind then and there to move to Manhattan as soon as possible. As soon as I graduated from college, I moved to Manhattan, end of story.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, thank you, Denise. Beth, you working on this book, how many times did you hear that kind of a story about Milton's work?

Beth Kleber: Many times. Certainly, in the course of my job over many years I've come into contact with not just people who have come into contact with Milton Glaser's design, but former students, people who worked for him, and just seeing the scope of his influence, both in terms of how people responded to his work, but also having had personal contact with him, having studied with him. It's incredible, just the generations of designers that have been affected by his work.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to talk about Push Pin Studios. Just give us the primer on Push Pin Studios. It was a studio that he created?

Beth Kleber: Push Pin was started by Milton Glaser and Seymour Chwast, and also Ed Sorel, and Reynold Ruffins who were all classmates at Cooper Union in New York City. They started the studio pretty much immediately after they graduated. They even had some seeds before then. Milton had gone to Italy for a couple of years to study with Morandi in Bologna. When he came back, he rejoined with his classmates, and then the studio was off and running.

As a design studio, they redefined the graphic language that would be commonly seen in commercial design at the time, which was largely enthrall of European style of modernism. Push Pin came along, and they were illustrators, and were interested in integrating typography and illustration and change the look of graphic culture that people would interact with every day.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. We have a comment here on Twitter, somebody please give credit to Robert Indiana's love images and sculptures, which obviously inspired Milton Glaser. I want to go to that. Beth in Soho. Hi, Beth.

Beth in Soho: Hi. Same thing. Robert Indiana never got paid for that, so I was confused as to why Milton Glaser would get paid for it. Thing is, he also did the graphics for Tomato Record Stationary, which was fabulous, but he was never paid. He was supposed to be, but he was never paid for that. Was that mentioned in the book?

Tiffany Hanssen: Was that mentioned in the book?

Steven: It wasn't mentioned in the book that he didn't get paid, but he was very close to the owner of Tomato Records, and he did posters as well as the logo as well as the letterhead. We were never aware of him not being paid.

Tiffany Hanssen: Steven, for people who don't know, tell us who Robert Indiana is.

Steven: Robert Indiana was an artist who is best known for the grid that says L-O-V-E, which was used as a United States postage stamp, and had been in legal limbo for quite a number of years, in fact. It was his most iconic piece. Whether Milton was influenced by it or not, I don't think that was the case. I think Indiana was a product of his time and a representative of his time, just as Milton was a representative of New York.

There were posters in the subway that Milton did that suggested youth culture, suggested the reawakening of not just New York City, but of modern culture. Those are the things that people will remember, either have trace memories of, or actual memories of, particularly his poster for W-O-R, which influenced me a great deal.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mirko, I want to talk about this new logo. You've seen it? Have you seen it?

Mirko Ilić: Unfortunately.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs] All right. Let's get a little more of your opinion on the design of it.

Mirko Ilić: We spoke how Milton created original logo sitting alone on the back of the cab. This new logo is created by four different agencies, that's already showing. We spoke about how Milton did that logo for free. I'm curious if those agencies they did logo for free. We have expression in graphic design, which is a camel is a horse designed by committee.

Tiffany Hanssen: I like it. All right. We know where you stand. Duff. [laughter] I'm putting everybody on the spot here.

Beth Kleber: Is it a good logo? No. I feel a logo needs a reason to exist and it needs to represent something. I'm yet to be convinced that this in any way expresses something that wasn't already expressed by the I Love of New York logo.

Tiffany Hanssen: Steven.

Steven: A logo is about coming up with an idea, and an idea can be devised in seconds. Ideas are very precious, but they keep coming. They're in your head. 80% to 90% of making a logo is refinement. What Milton did with I Love New York was refined it. He picked the typeface that Mirko talked about. He made sure it was just the right heart. This logo looks like it got stamped out by a machine, [unintelligible 00:26:51] said the camel or any other group of monkeys in a room that are purported to have created a Shakespeare work.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, hand raising, Mirko.

Mirko Ilić: You mentioned few times iconic logo. Icons of New York [unintelligible 00:27:14] there are, let's say, Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty in that logo. How come nobody didn't decide to fix Statue of Liberty, or Empire State Building, maybe golden roof, maybe slightly bigger windows to be up to the time? Logo is easy pick.

Tiffany Hanssen: Again, I'm going to ask you to speculate. Beth, take us out. What would Milton say about this logo, do you think?

Beth Kleber: Honestly, I think he would be amused by the kerfuffle. I think he would think it was funny and I think he would agree that it was not an effective logo, but he would probably want to talk about something else.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. We'll leave it there. From May 17th through June 5th, there will be an exhibition at the School of Visual Arts called Milton Glaser Pop. Will work from the book be shown at this, Beth?

Beth Kleber: Yes, absolutely.

Tiffany Hanssen: Great. We've been talking about Milton Glaser: Pop. It's a book that's out next Friday. The book is co-authored by Steven Heller, an MFA co-chair at the School of Visual Arts where Glaser taught for 10 years. Beth Kleber, the founding archivist for the Milton Glaser Design Study Center and Archives, and Mirko Ilić, a designer and illustrator, and former collaborator of Glasers. Thank you all for joining us today to talk about Milton Glaser. We appreciate it.

Steven: Thank you.

Beth Kleber: Thank you.

Mirko Ilić: Thank you.

 

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