[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. This year, a woman Time Magazine once described as America's best songwriter, Lucinda Williams, has released an album, published a book, and gone on tour. Two out of three of those actions were first for her. The book Don't Tell Anybody the Secrets I Told You is her Biblio debut. As we learn, she's lived a lot of life, growing up in more than 12 cities around the world. The child of a poet father, and a creative but troubled mother.

In the introductions, Williams says she hopes the reader will be touched by her candor writing, "I don't want it to be one of those sugarcoated books like you find at Walgreens. I want them to see the truth and I hope that it would help some people who maybe had some mental illness in their family. I would hope they can read about what was going on in my family and be able to connect."

The book debuted on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction list at number five. The second first is that Williams is back on stage after suffering a debilitating stroke in 2020 with a lot of rehab and the understanding that she won't play guitar on stage. She has dates in the States and abroad through March 2024. Her new album, Stories from a Rock n Roll Heart, her 16th, covers a lot of musical territory. It includes guest Bruce Springsteen, Patti Scialfa, Margo Price, Tommy Stinson, Angel Olsen, and Jess Malin among others. It happened to come out around the 25th anniversary of Lucinda's huge record Car Wheels on a Gravel Road listed in the top 100 of Rolling Stones best albums of all time. There is a lot to talk about with my next guest, Lucinda Williams. Hi, Lucinda.

Lucinda Williams: Hi.

Alison Stewart: I figured we'd spend some time on your book, and then on your album, and then on the anniversary, and on the tour. Does that sound okay?

Lucinda Williams: Yes. When I hear that about myself, I think, wow, I did pretty good.

Alison Stewart: You gave us a long list in front of the book. This long list of all the places that you spent your life, Chile, Mexico, Arkansas. First of all, when you were little, why did you move around so much, and then what good came out of it?

Lucinda Williams: Sorry.

Alison Stewart: That's okay.

Lucinda Williams: My dad was a poet, as you mentioned, and he also taught. He was a college professor, and mainly teaching freshmen. Several of the colleges he taught freshmen English. In that world, you teach for a year or two and then you moved to another school, another college. I grew up in college towns, basically. That went on for a while until he achieved tenure at the University of Arkansas.

Alison Stewart: You write about when he was at the University of Arkansas, you're around all these great literary salons and around this literary scene and how cool it was.

Lucinda Williams: Yes, because he founded the MFA program there. A lot of writers came through and would give a reading. Ani was talking about the different musicians playing, and coffee houses and everything. It was a writer's world in that regard. A visiting writer would come to town and give a reading. Then after the reading, there would always be a gathering at one of the poet's homes. A lot of the times it would be our house with my dad. The writer would come over there, and then all the creative writing students would show up. It was just a very electric atmosphere for a teenage girl just getting interested in language, and songs, and poetry, and everything.

Alison Stewart: You did write though about-- Oh, go. I'm sorry.

Lucinda Williams: No, that's okay. I was going to say that teenage girl being myself. Just soaking it all up and getting crushes on some of the young poets.

Alison Stewart: When you said teenager, it reminded me of something you said in your book which was, if you were a teenager, if you weren't interested in something, you wouldn't do it.

Lucinda Williams: Pretty much. I wasn't the greatest student in school. I was pretty rebellious the way Ani was, probably. I really enjoyed that interview with her. I've been a fan of hers for a while, but we just never had the opportunity to sit down and talk. I learned some more things about her.

Alison Stewart: Oh, well, I hope that happens. Maybe this is the introduction that needed to happen for you and Ani to have a coffee sometime.

Lucinda Williams: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I mentioned in the intro your mom, who you write about her warmly, but then she suffered from mental illness, and she had some aggressive treatment, and she did some scary stuff around you as a kid. One story you tell about being in a closet for some time. What would you want someone to understand about growing up with a mentally ill parent?

Lucinda Williams: For me right now, I just started realizing at a certain point that it's still a somewhat taboo subject, because I would feel myself feeling shy about talking about it. After a point, I just said to myself, "This is ridiculous. It's an illness just like any other illness. I need to be able to talk about it openly and not feel embarrassed or self-conscious about it." I just made an agreement with myself that I was going to come out of that taboo closet, as it were, and start discussing it openly with my audience and with people. I think people appreciate that. It is hard to talk about in our society. It's a vibe that you get from people like, "Ooh, she was mentally ill."

I think maybe people had this image in their heads of One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest or something. This woman running around, out of her mind, or like a Bette Davis movie, with smeared lipstick. Just these crazy images. It's not necessarily like that. It can be a very quiet disease, but there's this whole stereotype in people's minds about mental illness. Of course, as we all know, my heart has gone out a lot to people on the street, living on the street, the homeless situation, because most of us know, I think, that a lot of those people are suffering from mental illness, and it's not being addressed properly.

Alison Stewart: That's a really good point.

Lucinda Williams: That ties into it all, too.

Alison Stewart: The name of the memoir is Don't Tell Anybody the Secrets I Told You. My guest is Lucinda Williams. We're going to transition into the new album, Stories from a Rock n Roll Heart. The first track I picked because it's got a line in about being stuck in a taxi cab in New York City and thinking of someone, Stolen Moments. When was the song written?

Lucinda Williams: Probably a year or two ago. I was thinking a lot about the late Tom Petty. I thought of him as a friend. I was just getting to know him better when he passed away. I really looked up to him a lot. He was a very warm, gentle person besides being a great songwriter. He asked me to open up the very last shows he did at the Hollywood Bowl in Los Angeles, which was a big deal for me. That was a huge deal. That invitation alone says a lot about him. He was very supportive of younger artists and everything. He appreciated me as an artist, and a person, and a fellow Southerner. I think we were like kindred spirits.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to the track. This is Stolen Moments from Lucinda Williams.

[music - Lucinda Williams - Stolen Moments]

Driving down sunset, I'm stuck in traffic

With the sun coming in from the west

So I cover my eyes and I wait for the light to change

And I think about you

And it's kinda strange, but I think about you

Sitting in the backseat of a downtown taxi

Speeding across New York City

Somewhere between First Avenue and Second Street

I think about you

It's like a heartbeat, I think about you

In stolen moments, you're riding with me

You're riding with me again

You're riding with me in stolen moments

You're riding with me again--

Alison Stewart: That's Stolen Moments from the album Stories from a Rock n Roll Heart. My guest is Lucinda Williams. The song that the album gets its title from, Rock n Roll Heart, you have backing vocals from Bruce Springsteen and Patti Scialfa. How did you end up backing with Bruce and Patti?

Lucinda Williams: Everybody asks that. The big difference with this album was that, compared to the other ones was, there was some collaboration that went on in writing the songs. One of the guest, songwriting guest on some of the songs was Jesse Malin, the New York City-based rock and roll guy. He had a band called D Generation.

Alison Stewart: Yes, D Generation.

Lucinda Williams: Jesse is a great songwriter in his own right. I worked with him on his last album and helped him with some of his songs. I invited him to come in and jump in on some of these songs. He brings a great rock and roll element to a lot of the songs. We're sitting at the table working on something, and Bruce Springsteen's name came up as someone who would be great on some of the songs as a background singer. It's like, "Wouldn't it be great if we could get Bruce on this?"

Jesse piped up and said, "Because Jesse is the unofficial mayor of the scene in New York City, the Lower East Side, or something." He's a mover and shaker. He knows everybody. He's one of those kinds of guys. Jesse pops up and said, "Well, I think I can make that happen. Let me see what I can do when I get back home," because we were in Nashville working on this stuff. He flew back to New York and managed to get a hold of Bruce's people. The word finally got to Bruce who said, yes, he'd love to do it.

Bruce and I had met and talked. He said and with this one time when I played Shepherds Bush in London. Like the relationship I have with Tom Petty a little bit just. He's just really supportive of other artists. I think both of those guys remember what it was like when they were trying to make their way through the crazy world of the music business. Bruce is another one of those warm-hearted, down-to-earth superstars, if there is such a thing. There is such a thing, actually. I've learned from hanging around with both of those guys, Tom Petty and Bruce Springsteen, that you can be that. The two things can coexist, and that's an important lesson to learn, I think.

Alison Stewart: For sure.

Lucinda Williams: Anyway, Bruce said yes, and we sent him-- They weren't able to go into studio where we were, but he and Patty Scialfa went into a studio where they live. We sent them the tracks. We didn't tell them what to do or anything, they just went in and improvised and did their own thing.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen. Here's Rock n Roll Heart by Lucinda Williams.

[music - Lucinda Williams - Rock n Roll Heart]

Working class kid in a dead-end town

Wants to get out before it brings him down

Turns on the radio and hears a sound

Now he knows that he's been found

Blue-collar boy in a no-win town

Has to get out before they take him down

Playing that guitar is all he needs

Follow that dream wherever it leads

Outside of the outsiders

Everything changed when he heard that song

That's when you've got a rock n roll heart

Yes, yes, yes, a rock n roll heart

You don't have to be that smart

You don't have to be a work of art--

Alison Stewart: My guest, Lucinda Williams. As I mentioned, you're on tour. You're going to be in our area a bunch in October at the Beacon at Port Chester and Red Bank. I saw you open for Bonnie Raitt earlier, I think it was in a little time ago. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit-- Oh, we're having a little bit of a connection issue. So you know what, I'm going to play Can't Let Go by Lucinda Williams from Gravel Road, from Car Wheels on a Gravel Road, and we'll see if we can figure out the connection. Let's take a listen.

[music- Lucinda Williams- Can't Let Go]

Told you, baby, one more time

Don't make me sit all alone and cry

Well, it's over I, know it but I can't let go

I'm like a fish out of water, a cat in a tree

You don't even want to talk to me

Well, it's over, I know it but I can't let go

He won't take me back when I come around

Says he's sorry then he pulls me out--

Alison Stewart: All right, Lucinda, before you go, I have to know who that song is about.

Lucinda Williams: Stolen Moments?

Alison Stewart: No, Can't Let Go. I was just looking at--

Lucinda Williams: I don't know. That was written by a friend of mine, Randy Weeks.

Alison Stewart: All right. You sing it like it's meant for somebody. [chuckles] Always one of my favorites.

Lucinda Williams: It's a good one. It's a good one.

Alison Stewart: She will be in town in October at the Beacon, Port Chester, Red Bank. Check out her website for dates. Lucinda, thank you for being with us.

Lucinda Williams: Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: That's All Of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

[music- Lucinda Williams- Can't Let Go]

I got a big chain around my neck

And I'm broken down like a train wreck

Well, it's over, I know it but I can't let go

 

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