David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst, in for Alison Stewart. If you have ever doodled on a piece of paper or if you're an avid reader of The New Yorker's Cartoon Caption Contest, you may already be on the path to becoming a cartoonist. If you're looking for more formal instruction, this next conversation might help. Emily Flake is a writer and illustrator who is also a staff cartoonist at The New Yorker, and she's also the creator of Joke in a Box, a card deck version of her popular workshop in which she teaches people the elements of cartooning and how to see the world in a different way, or at least how to mine it for material.

While I can't say that Joke in a Box will win you The New Yorker Caption Contest, I can say that it's funny and fascinating. Emily Flake joins us now. Hello and welcome to All Of It.

Emily Flake: Hello. Thank you for having me.

David Furst: Now, I introduced you as a cartoonist. You're also hosting a stand-up event at Young Ethel's in Brooklyn tomorrow night.

Emily Flake: Yes, sir.

David Furst: On your website, you write, "I am a cartoonist, writer, performer, teacher, illustrator." How does all of this work together?

Emily Flake: Does it? Does it all work together?

David Furst: [chuckles]

Emily Flake: I guess the real answer to that is that it's all of a piece, which is something that I tried to emphasize in the book in terms of like, "If you want to write jokes to become gag cartoons, that's great." Hopefully, people will also use it to write jokes that can become anything, not just gag cartoons because there's only so much competition we really need.

David Furst: Right. Stay away from this particular corner.

Emily Flake: Right. Exactly. Come in this corner, but not too close.

David Furst: Not all the way. Right.

Emily Flake: Yes. Now, I do a bunch of different things arguably because I have no attention span whatsoever. Yes, I guess that's the Pollyanna way to look at it.

David Furst: Well, that's interesting. How did you get into cartooning?

Emily Flake: I went to school for illustration and realized pretty quickly that like I wasn't good enough to not have something extra. I was like, "Well, I guess I can be funny." I started doing a cartoon called Lulu Eightball that ran in a bunch of alt-weeklies, which was much filthier than the things that I managed to get into The New Yorker. Eventually, I started pitching to The New Yorker, and it took about a year before they bought one. That was in 2008, and now, here we are.

David Furst: What is it about cartoons that makes them a great way to convey something? What's the superpower of cartoons especially single-panel?

Emily Flake: I think it's the immediacy of the joke. It's like what is good about memes. It's something that you understand like-- It has to make its point very concisely. That's why I think learning to write single-panel jokes is useful for any kind of joke craft because it forces you to really get to the nub of what you're trying to say.

David Furst: If you have to make that point very concisely and that joke very concisely, how important is it to come up with just the right caption, the word choice? You have one panel, what do you get? One sentence, a few words?

Emily Flake: You get a sentence, a few words. I did sell a cartoon that was-- I should have counted. 46 words long and a very long caption. Yes, precision is the essence there. You have to be very choosy about your words and really get the-- You have to choose the right words. [chuckles] You have to make the right words.

David Furst: Words equal important.

Emily Flake: Yes.

[laughter]

David Furst: Let's talk a little bit about your process as we start to get into talking about Joke in a Box. How do you come up with topics? You mentioned in Joke in a Box that you relentlessly, ruthlessly mine your family for material.

Emily Flake: Absolutely. Why else would anyone have a family?

David Furst: [chuckles]

Emily Flake: No, I think it's a matter of being open to the world around you and seeing what is absurd or something that you can play with or just something that you have a feeling about. I feel like having a feeling is step one in terms of writing jokes or doing art of any kind. Just make a feeling and then make a thing about that feeling, is the elevator version of my process, I suppose. Also, it's like there's a whole world, and that can be very overwhelming as subject matter because the whole world is too much stuff. One of the things I advise people to do is just make a list of eight things, and then work from that.

David Furst: A big part of it is having artistic talent, but I would imagine that being a great observer of not just your family, but human nature in general is one key ingredient to being a good cartoonist.

Emily Flake: Oh, absolutely. In terms of drawing, I think there's a real range of beautiful drawing versus not beautiful drawing versus confident drawing. I think a desire to depict the world in some kind of visual way is important, obviously, to cartooning. I lost my train of thought completely.

[laughter]

David Furst: Well, that's why we got to work on the single-panel.

Emily Flake: Exactly, exactly.

David Furst: 46 words was the record.

Emily Flake: You know what? Don't quote me on that. Yes, I'll look up and see what the record-- I think George Booth holds the record for longest caption. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

David Furst: Let's talk about Joke in a Box. I have one of them right here. It's a box, it's full of cards. What is this exactly and who is this for?

Emily Flake: This is really for anybody who is a fan of single-panel gags and wants to try it out. It's also for anybody who writes jokes in any format. Again, whether you're into stand-up, or satire, or anything, it's meant to help you come up with stem cells that can become anything. Obviously, the focus of it is single-panel gags, just because

that's what I do the most. It's in this modular card deck format in part because I like the idea of having cards that you can pull out and use as-- just a way to be like a prompt generator.

David Furst: A way to stimulate creativity.

Emily Flake: Yes, exactly. There's some cards that have just a picture of a witch, or a dragon, a clock, elements that you can pull out and use as prompts. It also only occurred to me after this book came out. I don't keep a sketchbook. This is my lucky clipboard because I find sketchbooks very intimidating, like they really want something from me that I don't know if I'm going to be able to give. I keep everything on a clipboard and I was like, "Oh, maybe that's why I wrote a book that didn't have a binding." [chuckles] Maybe my problem is with bindings.

David Furst: This is all a way of getting away from binding?

Emily Flake: Yes.

David Furst: I find it a really interesting creative strategy. It reminded me of something that Brian Eno, the producer/musician did years ago, I'm guessing in the early '70s, a collection of stra-- I think he called it the oblique strategies, where he would have a deck of cards, a hundred cards or so, and you would grab one randomly and it would tell you to do something to break you out of your routines and get you thinking in a different way.

Emily Flake: No, my brand is very much dirtbag brand. No, 100%. That was at the forefront of my mind when I was thinking of this because I think it's such a great way to work because it takes so much pressure off. It's in the hands of the universe in whatever card they wish to give you.

David Furst: Well, that's interesting because when you have this universe of possibilities, I can write about anything today. Where do you start?

Emily Flake: Yes. Don't you find that sort of, "I can write about anything," just like, "It's too much"? The cards are meant to help you narrow that down. If you pull like three cards, and let's say you have dragon, princess, something, whatever, it's not like, "Well, I can only use this," it's meant as like, "Here's a starting point. Something to make the entry into actually sitting down and doing the work less daunting." For me personally, that's one of the biggest things is just like, "Sit down and start something, dummy."

David Furst: Right. Key is sitting down and starting something.

Emily Flake: Yes, it turns out.

David Furst: Well, let's start something.

Emily Flake: Okay.

David Furst: Dare I ask if you could lead me through an exercise? I'm afraid.

Emily Flake: Sure, sure. You've got your cards.

David Furst: Yes.

Emily Flake: In the part where it's a bunch of pictures, you could just pull out-- Let's keep it simple and say two cards.

David Furst: Okay.

Emily Flake: Tell me what you got.

David Furst: Let's see. I'm going to take-- I have clock, hammer.

[laughter]

David Furst: That is setting us up.

Emily Flake: Clock hammer sounds like a terrible invention.

David Furst: Clock hammer. Well, let's go with clock and hammer. Those are the two cards that I picked.

Emily Flake: Okay. You can doodle a scenario in which a clock and a hammer interact in some way. Obviously, the first thing that comes to mind is somebody using a hammer to smash a clock.

David Furst: Naturally, it writes itself, right?

Emily Flake: Absolutely.

David Furst: Sleepy radio host is immediately thinking about the hammer hitting the clock.

Emily Flake: You've already formed an emotional connection with the elements here. When you pull the cards, you can either put them together in a scenario and try to think, "Okay, what's going on in this scenario? What are the clock and the hammer doing together? How are they interacting? Is somebody using them?" Then that leads you down a personal rabbit hole to what are my feelings about a clock? About time, about what a clock represents. Do I like circles? Same thing with a hammer I feel like a clock there's a lot more emotional mining to be done with a clock than a hammer.

Just because a clock represents so much more. I think there's also plenty of things that you can say about a hammer. I'm already thinking about what does this hammer say about my lack of competence in the world?

David Furst: I'm immediately fascinated because you're thinking about a lot of the visual things, clocks, and circles, and where do we go from here and a clock. You also mentioned a clock, a hammer. A hammer clock.

Emily Flake: Hammer clock.

David Furst: [crosstalk] There, you inventing that.

Emily Flake: I think I'm just stealing from the Simpsons at this point. The hammer toilet.

David Furst: In a few seconds, we're already sparking some ideas. There's so many ways to do that with this collection. The nuts and bolts of how to put a cartoon together. There's another side to this that's quite fascinating. Your Joke in a Box. On one of the cards, you write that you still struggle daily with anxiety over drawing. That's pretty amazing to hear because that's what you do. Did this whole Joke in a Box start as a pep talk to yourself?

Emily Flake: Yes. Absolutely, the pep talks in here are ones that I would give myself if I liked myself at all.

David Furst: Oh my goodness.

Emily Flake: No, for sure part of this is and it feels so silly to be like, "Well, it's hard because it's not-- working in a [unintelligible 00:12:15] is hard, waitressing is hard but the act of doing any creative work is an uncomfortable staring down the barrel of your own soul. [laughs]

David Furst: It's a place where doubt can creep in.

Emily Flake: Absolutely, 100%. I can only speak for myself maybe everybody else is having a super awesome time sitting down.

David Furst: All those other people.

Emily Flake: All those other people are fine. I like a little pep talk that acknowledges that the difficulty of doing creative work.

David Furst: Joke in a Box has cards with meditations, encouragements, pep talks as we've been saying. What do you find especially helpful when that anxiety or just being down starts to take over your thoughts?

Emily Flake: I think it's really important to remember that comedy is a team sport. It's something really best done with other people. It's a conversation. I find it very helpful to just talk to friends and be like, "Hey, can you give me just a list of words that I can be like this is what I have to think about, this is what I have to write jokes about?" Also, truly one of my very favorite things in the world is to just sit around a table with friends and make jokes. That really feeds everything that I do as a writer, as a person who writes jokes, just that back and forth with people just the joy of writing jokes in the air is everything.

David Furst: That's fascinating to hear about that being a team event because it seems like such a solitary job, especially in a table situation like that. "Wait, that joke was hilarious. Who is that one?"

Emily Flake: People do call dibs. [laughs]

David Furst: But it does seem like a solitary experience. You're saying it doesn't have to be.

Emily Flake: When you sit down to draw this stuff, when you sit down to really be like, "All right, let's focus and get this written." Sure, but I don't think that all of your creative work is done at your table. It's a matter of distilling everything that happens in your life, your heart, and your brain. That is really fed by other people, I think.

David Furst: Well, Joke in a Box is a version of a workshop that you hold. How long have you been teaching this? What made you want to get into teaching?

Emily Flake: I love a workshop. I find workshops very helpful. I have taught it for years in dive bars and theaters, and I have done a little bit of teaching for colleges, and I run a writer's residency. We also do classes online so I've taught it over Zoom. Yes, it's been-- Oh, my gosh, let's say, it's 15 years that I've been teaching this.

David Furst: Wow, the humor writing residency. Is that the one held in Williamsport, Pennsylvania?

Emily Flake: Yes, it's.

David Furst: Called St. Nell's. Tell us a little bit, who is St. Nell?

Emily Flake: I named it after Nell Gwynn who was a body comedic actress in the 1600s. She just seemed like she'd be a real good hang. Yes, it's a house in central Pennsylvania, in Williamsport and people apply, it holds up to three writers at a time. I say writers, but comedians, like cartoonists, et cetera. Any woman or non-binary person who works in any comedic discipline. Basically, I put together cohorts, they stay there for a couple weeks, and they work on stuff, and make friends. Yes, that's pretty much the point of St. Nell's.

David Furst: That sounds fascinating. Now, you don't just draw, write jokes, teach, and do all this. You also perform a type of, I hope I'm describing this correctly, standup cartooning. Could you explain what that is?

Emily Flake: Sure. Basically, it's bits during which I also show cartoons. I do some standup without that as well. I think it's just a way to use something that else that I do in another way. Yes, so I'll tell a story or do some jokes and then show some cartoons and riff on them.

David Furst: You're not drawing cartoons live during--

Emily Flake: I have done that I find that very daunting. There are people who are much better than I am at that. [laughs] There's a show called Picture This at Union Hall, where cartoonists draw along with standups running through their set. That's a great time.

David Furst: That sounds fascinating and you're going to be hosting a standup event. This is happening and now I'm a little afraid to mention this. We'll have to be careful here. This is a standup event at Young Ethel's in Brooklyn. It's happening tomorrow night. It has a name that I cannot say on the air and you can't either.

Emily Flake: I won't. [laughs]

David Furst: We'll just call it FDK but can you tell us about it in a way that we can still broadcast?

Emily Flake: Sure. It's really only the name that's filthy. It's a standup showcase that I co-host with the wonderful comedian, Holly Harper. Yes, we've got four excellent comics, and yes, Young Ethel's, 7:00 tomorrow night.

David Furst: 7:00 tomorrow night. This is the oldest question that you probably get from people who want to win the Caption Contest, how does it work? What comes first? We've talked about different techniques but typically for you, is it the idea first or do you doodle first and get a picture that leads you into thinking about an idea?

Emily Flake: That's what I think is so interesting about the caption contest because I never draw first, I always write first, but I think everybody varies. Some people doodle and see if something sparks. Personally, I always write first. I am terrible at the caption contest. I don't feel like-- I'm also not allowed to enter it. That's a really interesting process for me to look at a picture and be like, "Okay, this is already done. Let's write a joke here." Yes, the caption contest-- my dad enters all the time. I don't even know if he's allowed to win but he's really mad at me that he hasn't won yet.

David Furst: [chuckles] Now, are there any topics when we're talking about plucking from the universe of ideas, are there some topics that you just won't touch in cartoons? Things that you would consider off limits?

Emily Flake: I think anything that I would consider off limits would be something that I didn't have a personal connection to or feel like not necessarily even that I could speak on with authority. I don't know that there's subjects that should be for all times and all people. I think for me personally, I need to have a reason to make these jokes. It needs to be relevant to something that I've experienced in some way if that makes sense.

David Furst: It totally does. We're speaking with Emily Flake, the creator of Joke in a Box: How To Write and Draw Jokes, a card deck. One of the cards in this box number 48, by the way. You write that one key to the craft is quelling self-doubt. As in fake it till you make it. You write that quote in drawing as in shoplifting, confidence is key. How did you learn that?

Emily Flake: Through shoplifting.

David Furst: Of course. Excuse me.

Emily Flake: It's entirely possible that I wrote this book because it was cheaper than getting therapy, but no. I think there's a certain amount of just hutzpah or audacity that is really key to making our wear of any kind where even if you are completely plagued by doubts, if you're able to circumvent that and just walk in like you own the place, and stick the book into your waistband and walk out, then you've won.

David Furst: But don't really pick up too many life lessons from the shoplifting.

Emily Flake: Don't shoplift.

David Furst: Don't shoplift, Joke in a Box.

Emily Flake: Right.

David Furst: Okay. Very good advice. I wanted to ask you this. I wanted to ask you earlier. When we think about single-panel cartoons, there's a lot of people that we immediately think of. Who are some of your influences? Whose work do you really admire?

Emily Flake: Oh, wow. So many. Roz Chast obviously is one of my absolute North Stars. Shary Flenniken even though she was not like a single-panel gag cartoonist, she is somebody whose work I am always so happy to see celebrated. Right now, I think Will McPhail and Joe Dator are doing just incredible work. Asher Perlman, Hillary-- Now, I'm going to get into trouble because I'm like, just listing all the other New Yorker cartoonists who are going to be like, "Oh, great. Thanks for not saying my name." Basically, you're all wonderful. You're all so good and so talented, and everybody's doing great work right now except for one person.

David Furst: Except for one person. You're going to call that one out right now. Are you thinking about some of these people--? When you talked about Roz Chast being your North Star, are you thinking about her work when you're working? Are you trying to think, "Well, that's been done, I need to do something different."

Emily Flake: I always Google a joke to see if somebody else has written it first.

David Furst: Oh, no, but everything's been done, right?

Emily Flake: It has, it has. I don't know what we're doing here. I do actually like to flip through old New Yorkers or look at an anthology and just get into the mind frame, where I'm having a conversation with these cartoons because that helps me come up, that helps me get into a mind frame where I'm coming up with jokes. I don't know if I've ever like sat down like, "I'm going to write a Roz Chast joke now." I think back to the earlier point of it being like a conversation. I think just even looking at somebody else's work, it gives you a feeling of mirth that you want to build on as you're doing your own work.

David Furst: Well, I've drawn a terrible picture of a-

Emily Flake: [laughs] It's okay.

David Furst: -of a clock being hit by a hammer. That's yours to keep forever.

Emily Flake: Thank you. I'm going to have this framed and I'm not kidding. Oh, it's the radio so you can't see it, but the clock is so sad and his little hands looks like, "Please don't hurt me." Listen, this will be the Caption Contest for today.

David Furst: Our guests has been writer, illustrator, performer, cartoonist, Emily Flake. She is the creator of Joke in a Box. You'll be performing at Young Ethel's tomorrow night. Emily, thank you so much for joining us on All Of It.

Emily Flake: Thank you so much for having me.

 

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