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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Our next segment was sparked by a recent letter to New York Magazine's financial columnist from a person whose parents are in their 70s but don't have a will and won't talk about making one. Thinking about our mortality can be difficult, let alone making financial decisions about how your legal and financial affairs should be handled after you die. A 2020 Gallup poll indicates that fewer than half of US adults have a will or any estate planning for that matter.

There are myriad reasons for this. Some people feel like the process is too expensive. Others might not think they have enough assets to pass on or maybe some just haven't gotten around to it. If you fall into any of these categories, this conversation might help. To help us answer questions about the process is Charlotte Cowles, The Cut's financial advice columnist, who answered that letter and did some reporting on the subject. Charlotte, nice to see you.

Charlotte Cowles: Thank you so much for having me.

Alison Stewart: Joining us is Katrina Robinson. She's a lawyer and chief executive officer of the Teton Trust Company, specializing in estate planning, and is one of the people that Charlotte spoke to for her piece. Hi, Katrina.

Katrina Robinson: Alison, thanks so much for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's get you into this conversation. Have you ever talked to a family member about making a will? How did the conversation go? What advice do you have for others or maybe you have a will or thinking about making one? What are some of the things that you included or maybe you have a wild will story? Did someone leave you their taxidermy collection or maybe you received a wonderful surprise?

Give us a call or you can text to us at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. That's for phone calls and texts, or you can reach out to us on social media @AllOfItWNYC. Let's start with the basic. Charlotte, tell us a little bit about this letter you received, the person's dilemma, the questions it brought up for you as a financial columnist.

Charlotte Cowles: It's really complicated to talk to someone else about what they should do with their money and their assets. I think the person who wrote into me was struggling with speaking with her own parents about their will or lack thereof. Her parents were private about their money and they didn't feel comfortable speaking about it with her. It wasn't the kind of family where finances were spoken about. She was struggling and worried about the potential mess that could be left for her if no will was ever made, which it seemed like was potentially a possibility.

The challenge was twofold. One was talking to her parents about the prospect of making a will and how she could do that in a way that wouldn't cause them to further retreat and shut down the topic. Secondly was just understanding what the process would entail, the nuts and bolts of estate planning, which Katrina can probably speak to a little bit more specifically. Also, I think it's important to understand if you are going to talk to anyone about their will or potentially be a beneficiary of someone's will in the future.

Alison Stewart: Katrina, let's also for basics, what is the difference between creating a will and doing estate planning, or do they intersect?

Katrina Robinson: Thanks, Alison. That's such a good question. The whole process of creating your estate plan could involve a will amongst other things. A will tends to be something that we really think about when we think of estate planning. I think the will is really at the heart of that partly because even though so many people aren't doing it, it's actually the most accessible tool that we have in terms of estate planning. It can be completed in a relatively short time. It's typically a very straightforward document and very helpful. I think that if more people knew how-- not just essential, but how simple the process could be, I think more people would actually write a will.

Alison Stewart: Charlotte, you said--

Charlotte Cowles: If I can add something quickly too, I think a lot of people sometimes don't realize that they're engaging in estate planning without even realizing it. One example that Katrina and I spoke about earlier is if you're signing up for a 401(k) or a retirement plan at work and, usually, there's a little box where you're supposed to name a beneficiary of your 401(k) if something happens to you, that is actually estate planning.

Your 401(k) or your retirement plan is part of your estate. People think of estate as meaning like a grand house with pastures and horses, but it's actually just all of your assets, anything in your name, in your life. There are many things that people do just as parts of their everyday lives that are technically estate planning.

Alison Stewart: Katrina, Charlotte used the word "mess" and I've seen the word "mess" already in a couple of our callers and people who are texting in. What are some of the messes that can be left behind if you don't have a will?

Katrina Robinson: I think that if you don't have a will, it really depends on where you are in life. I think that probably the biggest mess could be if you have a family, if you're a young family. By that, I mean you have children who are minors and you did not have a will and either a parent or both parents pass away because I think what happens there is that the court would have to appoint a guardian or the children.

When you draft your will, you would appoint a guardian and you get to choose. If you don't make choices by way of drafting a will, the state, the court would appoint that person for you. I think not knowing who would take care of your children if you passed away, to me, would be the biggest mess that you could have. There are lots of messes, but I think that one potentially because it affects the lives of young people is really something to consider.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Holly calling in from Rockland County, New York. Hi, Holly, thanks for calling All Of It.

Holly: Of course. Thanks for having me. I'm calling because I had the experience with my mom 12 years ago when she passed away. I use the word "mess" because that was really how her estate was left. The records were all jumbled. She had 1,000 different accounts at 1,000 different places. It just was really, really difficult and really painful. My daughter just went through the same thing where her father, who I divorced from for 32 years, passed away.

She wanted to take care of the estate. It was just so unfair because she was already going through so many painful issues and just having to deal with him having not done anything to handle his estate and his records all over the place. The point that I want to make is that it's the kindest thing you can do, the most loving thing you could do for your relatives if you take care of your estate. It does take a little time. Maybe it takes a little money. If you really love your family members, it's just the kindest thing you can do.

Alison Stewart: Holly, thank you so much for calling in. Our guests are Charlotte Cowles and Katrina Robinson. Charlotte is The Cut's financial advice columnist and Katrina is a lawyer specializing in estates and planning. We're talking about how to talk to families about making a will and the importance of making a will. Our phone lines are open. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Charlotte, how do you list and write special instructions for your assets?

Charlotte Cowles: That's a great question. It really depends on what kind of assets you have. At the same time, it's not that hard when you sit down and think about it. You have to think about the accounts that you hold. Similar to what the caller was referring to. Writing down all of the things that you own, whether that's a car or a home or your assets are really anything in your name, so making a list of all of those things and then determining who you want them to go to.

If you don't do that, then eventually, they will be sorted out through court. There's a court process that will take care of it. That is much more complicated. They have to track down all of these accounts and all of these belongings and all of these assets. There can also be tax applications so that whoever you do want to receive those assets may receive less of them as a result. The aspect of tracking everything down, putting them in one place really helps everybody out in the long run and can also shorten the process of determining where they should go.

Alison Stewart: Katrina, I'm going to read this text to you and get your thoughts on it. "Hi, I'm Olive. I'm 23. I took a Death and Dying class in college and absolutely loved it. It made me a lot more prepared for my mortality. I think anyone who has a job in the end-of-life process is a hero to me. It's beautiful to me. The financial process of a will has kept me at bay and unsure about navigating it, especially so young. I think there's a lot of people who maybe think you're too young to make one, but I think my class encouraged me to start early and making things easier for my family if something was happening. Is there an age too young to make a will and how does a young person start?"

Katrina Robinson: Well, that's so interesting. I think that probably once you're a legal adult, that could be a good time. It also depends on what a young person has going on in their life. Some young people are professionals already at a very young age, and so you'd actually have to start your estate planning probably before you're an adult and have assets held by way of a trust until you reach the age of majority. If you are an adult and you're able to talk to someone, a professional about your own estate planning or think through it, by all means, I don't think it's ever really too early because--

Alison Stewart: I want to dive in because you mentioned the trust because someone else has written into us, "I don't know whether I should write a will or a trust. I'm confused about where to start, but I want to start planning." Could you just explain the difference of will and trust and where they intersect?

Katrina Robinson: Sure. A will is a legal document by which you will basically stipulate what your assets are that you're leaving behind and who you would like them to go to. You'll also stipulate who is responsible for ensuring those assets go to the people that you've named. The person who is in charge of ensuring that is the executor, and then the persons who will receive the assets are the beneficiaries.

Also, a will, once you've drafted a will, you can just leave it alone until you need to make changes. It just sits there in someone's office and nothing really happens until the death event. When you have a trust, what you're basically doing is you are transferring the assets that you have personally in your name to the trustee. The trustee becomes the legal titleholder of your assets. You remain the beneficiary and you can name other beneficiaries.

The trustee can't go out and say, "Oh, wow, I've got this trust fund here of $100,000. Let me think about how to invest it to enrich myself." No, they're not the beneficiary of that. They are simply the person who should safeguard the assets while the beneficiaries wait to receive the asset. The trust can also survive the settlor. The settlor of the trust is the person who creates the trust. The trust can live for many, many years depending on the state. It could live in Wyoming for a thousand years. In other states, it's perpetuity.

It really continues. It's a very private process because once you draft the will and someone passes away, the owner of the will would be published. The death is a public record. The will can be public. Whereas a trust, if you pass away as a settlor of a trust leaving beneficiaries, it's completely private. In the United States, no one would know that you have a trust necessarily unless you've told them. It's something that's kept private between you, the trustee, and any beneficiaries that you've told.

Alison Stewart: Trusts are often used for tax benefits? People use them in certain situations?

Katrina Robinson: Trust can be used for many, many purposes. The main purpose of the trust is for succession planning, right? The main purpose is to allow your assets to be transferred to whoever you want and basically to allow a very seamless process because what happens with the will is that the will gets probated. It goes through a court process, which can be public, can take a lot of time. It's not as efficient because maybe a beneficiary will receive an asset all at once.

Whereas a trust, you can distribute out portions of the same asset that a beneficiary would want. In that way, it could be tax-efficient, right? Because if you receive an asset, say for example, if you receive cash, well, what happens is it's income to you. It's a taxable event. Maybe instead of getting 100% of a cash gift all at once, maybe at the time, you only need 5%. You can take the 5% by way of a trust and then you pay the taxes on that amount. Later on, you'll figure out when you receive the rest and you experience those other taxable events.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about estate planning and how to talk to your family members about making a will. We'll take a quick break. We'll get to more of your questions. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It. My guests are Charlotte Cowles. She is The Cut's financial advice columnist, and Katrina Robinson, who is a lawyer dealing with estate planning. We are talking about making a will and estate planning. Charlotte, I've got an interesting caller for you on Line 6, Barbara from Middlebury, Vermont. Hi, Barbara. Thanks for calling in.

Barbara: Hi, how are you? Thanks for taking my call. Question for you. My parents, fortunately, left everything in good space. We're trying to do the same for our kids, but our kids are-- [beep sound] I'm sorry. I'm on a [unintelligible 00:16:09], mid-30s. One is married. Do they need to have wills? What's the best way to broach that subject without seeming to be intruding or bossy or whatever?

Alison Stewart: This is the opposite. The parents want to talk to the adult kids about a will, Charlotte. What are some ways to start to introduce conversations around wills?

Charlotte Cowles: I love that. If it's helpful, I am also in my mid-30s, and I just made a will for the first time, but it was because I was having-- Well, I had a child a couple of years ago and I wanted to get everything squared away before I delivered. It's often they've done some research about this. Usually, people make plans in tandem with life events. In my case, the birth of my son. In other cases, maybe it's a marriage or seeing another relative recently passed away.

It can be helpful to tie it to something that gives you a reason to talk about it. I also think that it is helpful to reference your own process so that you can talk about the actual steps involved and that can make it seem more approachable to them. I think that for most people, the reason that they don't have a will is they might think that they don't need one because they don't have enough assets. Also, I think it's just intimidating. The idea of talking to a lawyer, hiring a lawyer, it seems like it's going to be really expensive.

If you can speak about it from your own experience and say, "Look, I did this X number of years ago. Here's who I talked to about it. Here are the steps involved," I think that sharing your own experience can really demystify it for them and also talking about it so that they can see that it is really about them. It's not about you. It's not about their next of kin. It's about them and the legacy that they want to leave and making sure that what happens to their assets is aligned with their own wishes.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Roberto calling in from the Bronx. Katrina, I think you can take this question. Roberto, thank you for calling in.

Roberto: Thank you so much for having this topic. My question is, what happens if you can't name an executor or don't want to name any of your family members? Because obviously, unexpected death, it won't be emotionally stable. Is there a service or a person that you could name that is not the lawyer that you're doing the will that is unbiased that it will follow the instructions to a tee and also doesn't have any emotional attachment to the person that passed away? Is there options?

Alison Stewart: Interesting question.

Katrina Robinson: That's a great question because thinking of who should be the executor is very important. A lot of times, people will want to use a family member, but I actually think it's a good idea to consider someone that you might know, the most responsible, competent, professional person in your life. I would say go with that person. Approach them. If not, maybe ask if they have any ideas. Because I think at the end of the day, it's a job to be an executor. It's a pretty serious job. In fact, if you're not very emotionally connected with the deceased, then you might actually be perfect at that job.

Because while the family is in a situation after death where there's a lot of grieving and people are not exactly as functional as they might be otherwise, the executor is really the person who has to just wake up in the morning and just get to work in terms of helping to pay off debtors and to distribute assets from an estate. I think in these kinds of situations, I always try to find the most responsible, capable, and reliable person. I'd go to them and I see what they think. Hopefully, that's a helpful suggestion in terms of thinking about that.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kate calling in from New York City. This is a common question. We've got a lot of these. Kate, go for it.

Kate: Oh, is that me?

Alison Stewart: That's you.

Kate: Okay. Hi. My comment is that I filled out a form, a will form from a stationary supply store, and had it witnessed. Is that legal? Because it is off-putting to me, the idea of going to a lawyer. That's my call.

Alison Stewart: Is that kosher?

Charlotte Cowles: Katrina, that's a question for you.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Legally, was that binding?

Katrina Robinson: In New York, technically, you could find a form and you could complete the form. For execution, you need to have two uninterested parties, so parties that are not named in the will who would witness this form, which is your will. Then you'd want to have it notarized and then you'd want to make sure that you know where the original is kept so that if anything happens, you just never want two originals circulating.

I think even though a lawyer could be intimidating for some people, I would say that if you're not going to use a lawyer, it really helps if you do a lot of research and you try to become very familiar with the different aspects of the will. You'll have to give yourself a quick course in wills really to just make sure that the form is exactly the way it should be.

The last thing I will say is that there's only one question of legal relevancy because, depending on where you get the form, it may or may not be accurate or it may not be able to stand up under the law because forms have to be drafted by someone ultimately. It's important to know who was the original creator of the form even if you complete the aspects of it. It would have to be something that's up to date, that has the relevant and current law, and is legally binding, and then also that you execute it properly under the law and maintain it the way the law requires for it to be valid when you need it.

Alison Stewart: You also have to let people know where it is.

Katrina Robinson: Well, yes, someone has to keep the original and you should have a copy.

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Alison Stewart: We have been discussing how to talk to family members about making a will and doing some estate planning. Our phone lines are full. We're going to have to have you all back. We have a lot more questions to get to. My guests have been Charlotte Cowles and Katrina Robinson. Thank you so much for the advice. We appreciate it.

Charlotte Cowles: Thank you.

Katrina Robinson: Thank you so much, Alison.

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